Kreia was right

[Gendrasto]

A few sources, the best one would be the Darth Plagueis novel, which is a masterpiece by James Luceno.

 

I'll look into that. Anyway, I feel that this conversation is pretty much spent. I have a theory about Anakin's story though, if you'd like to hear it.

[Rayla_Felana]

I'll look into that. Anyway, I feel that this conversation is pretty much spent. I have a theory about Anakin's story though, if you'd like to hear it.

 

If you want I could tell you how Anakin officially came about, that very novel tells us how, it's quite spectacular.

[Gendrasto]

If you want I could tell you how Anakin officially came about, that very novel tells us how, it's quite spectacular.

 

Sure! It's something I've always wondered about and analyzed. Hearing the true story would be great, but what I think happened was basically that the Force itself conceived him, much in the way that God theoretically conceived Jesus. I know that this is not a new concept, but what I believe is that Qui-Gon should have left him on Tatooine. If the Force created him, it obviously did it for a reason and probably had it's own plans for his future and how he would bring balance. I think that it was naive for Qui-Gon to believe that he, the Jedi or even the Sith could somehow guide him and his destiny. Who knows how things would have turned out if he had left him on Tatooine? Events may have gone more smoothly or they may not have, but as far as I know, Jedi are supposed to trust in the Force and not try to shape it in order to achieve their goals.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Gendrasto

[Rayla_Felana]

Sure! It's something I've always wondered about and analyzed. Hearing the true story would be great, but what I think happened was basically that the Force itself conceived him, much in the way that God theoretically conceived Jesus. I know that this is not a new concept, but what I believe is that Qui-Gon should have left him on Tatooine. If the Force created him, it obviously did it for a reason and probably had it's own plans for his future and how he would bring balance. I think that it was naive for Qui-Gon to believe that he, the Jedi or even the Sith could somehow guide him and his destiny. Who knows how things would have turned out if he had left him on Tatooine? Events may have gone more smoothly or they may not have, but as far as I know, Jedi are supposed to trust in the Force and not try to shape it in order to achieve their goals.

 

Quite an interesting theory, but I think you'll find the truth to be rather unexpected.

 

 

Years before the Phantom Menace, Sidious and his master performed a Sith Ritual to create the ultimate being, basically another Sith'Ari, but it failed and in-fact the force counter-attacked by creating the ultimate being destined to destroy the Sith.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[IasonEvan]

Sure! It's something I've always wondered about and analyzed. Hearing the true story would be great, but what I think happened was basically that the Force itself conceived him, much in the way that God theoretically conceived Jesus. I know that this is not a new concept, but what I believe is that Qui-Gon should have left him on Tatooine. If the Force created him, it obviously did it for a reason and probably had it's own plans for his future and how he would bring balance. I think that it was naive for Qui-Gon to believe that he, the Jedi or even the Sith could somehow guide him and his destiny. Who knows how things would have turned out if he had left him on Tatooine? Events may have gone more smoothly or they may not have, but as far as I know, Jedi are supposed to trust in the Force and not try to shape it in order to achieve their goals.

 

Regardless of any theory, Anakin still brought balance to the force when he threw the emperor down the hole. That is where everything really ends where the lore starts getting convoluted because George lets people do whatever they want to his tale. I love talking lore with people and someone ultimately tries telling me that Darth Maul is still alive and I laugh and tell them they should start watching soap operas if they are willing to read something that somebody wrote who wasn't creative enough to come up with something other than, "I'm gonna bring Darth Maul back from being chopped in half and thrown in a bottomless pit!"

[Gendrasto]

Quite an interesting theory, but I think you'll find the truth to be rather unexpected.

 

 

Years before the Phantom Menace, Sidious and his master performed a Sith Ritual to create the ultimate being, basically another Sith'Ari, but it failed and in-fact the force counter-attacked by creating the ultimate being destined to destroy the Sith.

 

Wow, that changes everything. You were right, that was very unexpected. By the way, I think it's cool that you labeled the spoiler like that. Not many people would.

[AllanGand]

From what I seen in game and experienced in real life - it's best to be neutral

 

Being too strict on being good can make u miss opportunity

Being a jerk makes everyone hate you

 

Kinda how I am irl, im pretty passive and I try to be on Everyones

Good side.

Some people think I'm a ***** or too nice

But the way I see it, even if I hate someone, they may later

In life be of use to me...so why cut off help just because

Of personality conflict?

 

to quote kreia's words from the sith temple on Korriban "apathy is death" so nah maybe not so good to be passive

[JediMasterAlex]

Rayla has mentioned that some people are "naturally" dark or light side users, which I find to be a fallacy. I think it's clear in the lore that the Force mostly offers a choice to users, and it isn't as if everyone has a natural tendency to fall back on. That being said, I think some of you have the wrong idea about Kreia. I don't think she was as evil or twisted as some. She was undoubtedly a master manipulator, and therefore you have to take a lot of what she says with a grain of salt, especially her hatred of the Force. When she is at her most truthful, at the very end of the game, she essentially states that her goal the whole time was very simple: to train the exile to become more powerful than her. She wanted to prove to the Jedi, the Sith, and perhaps the Force, that her teachings were true. You might say, "yes, but she used the dark side to achieve that goal," which I won't deny, but she was less of a dark side user than any Sith. As for the exile, Kreia says to her, "You are not a Jedi, not truly, and that is why I love you." Remember that when Luke makes it clear that one must exclusively follow the light side, or fall to the dark side, he was talking about Jedi, true Jedi. I think that it is entirely possible for individuals to deviate from the absolutes, even if it is impossible to end up in the middle.

[lokdron]

Kriea is dark side if you ever agree with her in kotor 2 you always get smacked in the face with dark side points and to gain Inf with kriea you have to do dark side actions causing a man to die to get a light saber part for free and making a man commit suicide with words only. She loves it when you manipulate people and betray others for your own benefit. Thats all traits of a dark sider and a sith.

 

Plus kriea wanted all life to die in the galaxy since a galaxy without the force means there is no life and the dark side wishes everything to die and be destroyed. People need to get the restoration patch for kotor 2 and pay attention to what kriea says/does.

 

Oh and JOLEE IS LIGHT SIDE gosh.

 

What rayla says is correct.

 

Here is even a video of the exile agreeing with kriea and getting smacked in the face with + approval and dark side points.

Edited June 23, 2012 by lokdron

[Temeluchus]

dude,kreia was pure epicness...shame they had to kill her off at the end of the game...wouldve loved to have seen her in swtor

 

Well...

it hasn't been dev confirmed,confirmed in game or anything;but it is heavily implied through conversations with NPCs and the Codex that The Entity from the SW storyline is Kreia.

 

[Diaconate]

The lead writer of KOTOR 2, Chris Avellone, wrote Kreia as an attack on how the Force was portrayed in the rest of Star Wars canon. He didn't like the binary morality of the rest of Star Wars fiction and how it idolized wandering, selfless space samurai as being paragons of moral achievement. Avellone viewed Kreia's philosophy very sympathetically, and as such, within the context of KOTOR 2, she's "right", but it obviously doesn't hew with the rest of the canon, so if you examine how the force is depicted and discussed in other works, she's obviously going to be very, very wrong.

 

People who like Kreia probably also like the Star Cabal.

[Rayla_Felana]

Rayla has mentioned that some people are "naturally" dark or light side users, which I find to be a fallacy. I think it's clear in the lore that the Force mostly offers a choice to users, and it isn't as if everyone has a natural tendency to fall back on.

 

No one naturally uses an aspect of the Force, I am saying that 'gray Jedi' use the light side, without realising that this is what it is, they aren't using some neutral version, no such thing expects.

[AKDarkHavic]

The Unifying Force

 

i havent seen this posted yet, if it was then im sorry to double post, but i just finished the entire NJO series and am into the legacy series now. One of the greatest things i remember from NJO tho was the line that i cant remember who said i think it was luke understand something about what vergere said, but it was to the affect of "Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side’, but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good, it's simply what it is". If i remember what i read correctly basically the force becomes what the user entails it to be. Those who control the force make it become what they want it to be, and dub it as light/dark/grey based on a moral stand point.

 

Vergere even stated that anger and passion if in check and understood could be used not as "dark" but for light, because there really isnt a dark or light there is just the force

[ProfessorWalsh]

From what I seen in game and experienced in real life - it's best to be neutral

 

Being too strict on being good can make u miss opportunity

Being a jerk makes everyone hate you

 

Kinda how I am irl, im pretty passive and I try to be on Everyones

Good side.

Some people think I'm a ***** or too nice

But the way I see it, even if I hate someone, they may later

In life be of use to me...so why cut off help just because

Of personality conflict?

 

You do understand that Kreia was a Sith who was trying to kill all life in the galaxy right? She was insane.

[ProfessorWalsh]

The Unifying Force

 

i havent seen this posted yet, if it was then im sorry to double post, but i just finished the entire NJO series and am into the legacy series now. One of the greatest things i remember from NJO tho was the line that i cant remember who said i think it was luke understand something about what vergere said, but it was to the affect of "Jedi refer to the ‘light side’ and the ‘dark side’, but really, these are only words, and the Force is beyond words. It is not evil, just as it isn’t good, it's simply what it is". If i remember what i read correctly basically the force becomes what the user entails it to be. Those who control the force make it become what they want it to be, and dub it as light/dark/grey based on a moral stand point.

 

Vergere even stated that anger and passion if in check and understood could be used not as "dark" but for light, because there really isnt a dark or light there is just the force

 

You do know that Vergere was a Sith who set out to intentionally turn Jacen Solo to the Dark Side and that her entire plan from the start was to attempt to corrupt the Jedi Order.

 

There is a Light Side and a Dark Side. That is Lucas confirmed G-Canon. Any theory that states otherwise is automatically 100% wrong.

[Diaconate]

But is it really interesting to talk about "right" and "wrong" with respect to canon, anyway? I think, like in KOTOR 2, you can get a lot of mileage out of alternate ways of playing with the themes and cosmology of a canon (like star wars), regardless of whether it's in step with the party line of the franchise.

[maxetius]

You do know that Vergere was a Sith who set out to intentionally turn Jacen Solo to the Dark Side and that her entire plan from the start was to attempt to corrupt the Jedi Order.

 

Obviously, your point stands, but...

 

You do know that the plot point of Vergere being a Sith wasn't originally part of the NJO storyboard and was done at George Lucas's wishes. The 'unifying force' theory was supposed to be another way of looking at the force, which would explain how characters like Kyle Katarn and the Solo children use 'dark' force powers without becoming twisted monsters.

 

the idea was shut down hard post NJO, but it was there for a little bit. I find that interesting.

 

 

Anyway, as many have said, you can be a gray Jedi, but the dark side will always loom close by. There's really no middle ground where you're 'safe' and can use whatever abilities you want. Everything that claims you can, such as Unifying Force, Potentium Heresy, it's all just Sith tricks according to canon.

[Niv_Dralshya]

Another thing about Kreia, was that she did say there was a third path other than light or dark,. And that is to say to hell with the Force. Not apathy, that is death, but to reject both the dark and the light, and the Force, to say you do not need it and be able to live without it.

[Temeluchus]

Another thing about Kreia, was that she did say there was a third path other than light or dark,. And that is to say to hell with the Force. Not apathy, that is death, but to reject both the dark and the light, and the Force, to say you do not need it and be able to live without it.

 

Did Kreia outright say that or is that your interpretation? If memory serves, Kreia wanted to destroy the Force which would have resulted in countless,vast amounts of deaths;which doesn't really mesh with what you posted.

[Aurbere]

On the character Kreia: Kreia was a sick freak who was going to destroy the Force. She was a failure in the Dark and the Light and that made her a bitter old woman who wanted nothing more than to destroy the Force.

 

Was Kreia's view of the Force right: The answer is simply, no. Everything she told you in game was a flat out lie. At least that's how you should look at it. Her main plot was to destroy the Force and she would do anything to achieve that end. Especially lying. Many of the things she teaches were lies meant to draw you to the Dark Side and make her goal easier to accomplish. Falling included the Destruction of Sion and Nihilus. What is amazing is the fact that Meetra is able to not only stop Sion and Nihilus, but also stay away from the Dark Side and become a person of pure Light.

 

Concerning the Force and the Dark Side: There is no grey area in the Force. There is a Light and Dark Side, but no grey area. However, you can choose how you interperet the Light and Dark, and even you both sides. This can lead to falling to the Dark Side though. The Dark Side powers are mainly destructive and using them leads to darkness, no matter how good your intentions. If we look at Jacen Solo, while his intentions are relatively good, not only did he use Dark powers but he also succumbed to the lure of the Dark Side. This example proves that a Jedi cannot expose him/herself to Dark powers for long without being turned.

 

On the Relationship of Morality and The Force: A persons morality can greatly affect their alignment with the Force. Obviously the line is easy to see. Good guys are Jedi, bad guys are Sith. The issue brought about by this tread is neutrality in the Force. Many points have been brought about that I hope to lay to rest. Neutrality is possible, neutrality in the Force is not. Choices lead to reactions. A good, or Light Side choice, usually leads to a good outcome. A bad, or Dark Side choice, most likely leads to bad outcome. A Jedi that makes Dark Side choices, repeatedly, will most likely fall. Qui-Gon Jinn could be considered a grey Jedi. However, he followed the will of the Force and the Force is the Light Side. His morality is grey, but his alignment with the Force is not.

 

I think that should help clarify things. Of course all of these points are conjecture, but I feel most points are backed up by many canonical sources.

[Forgon]

The Grey area exists, its called "The Force" Not limiting yourself to any side, The Grey area is the Force in its Purest Form, neither Corrupted like the Dark Side or Serene like the Light side

 

The Force IS the light side. In fact, the "light side" is a term that has become fairly recent in the evolution of Star Wars lore. In some ways, it is a misnomer. There is no "Grey" area as there is the Force, and the Dark Side that corrupts it. The Force is not some balancing act between the light and dark, it is the Dark eliminated and only the Force.

 

Like it or not, the ideology and concepts the Jedi preach are the closest and most accurate interpretation of the Force and the most true of its precepts. Most seem to either misunderstand or simply dislike the moral realities of the Force in my opinion, but its already set in stone; the Force is not split into two sides, it is simply corrupted and fed off of by the darkness that attempts to disrupt the harmony of life it creates in the universe.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Forgon

[Temeluchus]

The Force IS the light side. In fact, the "light side" is a term that has become fairly recent in the evolution of Star Wars lore. In some ways, it is a misnomer. There is no "Grey" area as there is the Force, and the Dark Side that corrupts it. The Force is not some balancing act between the light and dark, it is the Dark eliminated and only the Force.

 

Like it or not, the ideology and concepts the Jedi preach are the closest and most accurate interpretation of the Force and the most true of its precepts. Most seem to either misunderstand or simply dislike the moral realities of the Force in my opinion, but its already set in stone; the Force is not split into two sides, it is simply corrupted and fed off of by the darkness that attempts to disrupt the harmony of life it creates in the universe.

 

Well, now you have gone and done it. Inb4 people post the George Lucas quotes saying there is only the Light Side and the Dark Side is a corruption and cancer and then people post the full George Lucas quotes explaining that there is a Light Side and Dark Side meant to balance each other out.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Temeluchus

[HellbirdIV]

Keria was right

From what I seen in game and experienced in real life - it's best to be neutral

 

If that's true, how come Kreia was incredibly, incredibly evil?

[RendValor]

Was Kreia's view of the Force right: The answer is simply, no. Everything she told you in game was a flat out lie. At least that's how you should look at it. Her main plot was to destroy the Force and she would do anything to achieve that end. Especially lying. Many of the things she teaches were lies meant to draw you to the Dark Side and make her goal easier to accomplish. Falling included the Destruction of Sion and Nihilus. What is amazing is the fact that Meetra is able to not only stop Sion and Nihilus, but also stay away from the Dark Side and become a person of pure Light.

 

Kreia was a chessmaster (or rather, master of dejarik) that used lies and deceit to accomplish her own goals. About half the things she says (if not more) are "Jedi Truths" (or to quote Obi-Wan: "From a certain point of view") including everything she said about Revan and him turning on the republic in order to strengthen it. Do you know what else what lies and deceit? her supposed "plan" to destroy the force. Kreia's ultimate goal was to reform a new jedi order without the baggage of the past, and in order to do so she had to wipe out both the Jedi AND the Sith (herself included), and train a new apprentice who is neither an uptight goodie-two-shoes nor a puppy-kicking complete monster. Someone who has seen war, and has been marked by it. Someone who knows pain and loss but also someone keeps on living even after losing her connection to the force.

 

Did she succeed? you bet your sweet loading ramp she did.

Edited June 24, 2012 by RendValor

[Temeluchus]

Kreia was a chessmaster (or rather, master of dejarik) that used lies and deceit to accomplish her own goals. About half the things she says (if not more) are "Jedi Truths" (or to quote Obi-Wan: "From a certain point of view") including everything she said about Revan and him turning on the republic in order to strengthen it. Do you know what else what lies and deceit? her supposed "plan" to destroy the force. Kreia's ultimate goal was to reform a new jedi order without the baggage of the past, and in order to do so she had to wipe out both the Jedi AND the Sith (herself included), and train a new apprentice who is neither an uptight goodie-two-shoes nor a puppy-kicking complete monster. Someone who has seen war, and has been marked by it. Someone who knows pain and loss but also someone keeps on living even after losing her connection to the force.

 

Did she succeed? you bet your sweet loading ramp she did.

 

....

wut?

 

I'm curious to hear how you think Kreia succeeded. If you meant by the apprentice, then yes Meetra,while a Light Sider,is different and much more interesting than your typical Jedi.

 

If you mean she succeeded in creating a new Jedi Order,"without the baggage of the past" you might be off your rocker. Meetra trained her companions, the companions went out and trained others and rebuilt the Order from the ashes of the Purge, but they still used the same old Jedi teachings and still used the same Jedi traditions.

 

Yoda himself said the Jedi had changed very little since the beginning and they had stagnated and thus were weaker than the Sith and able to be caught by surprise and beaten. The Jedi never changed radically or evolved until Luke Skywalker came along.The Sith had constantly evolved, in their teachings,philosphy and numbers and became stronger and stronger until the Dark Side ran virtually unchecked in Sidious.

 

Don't kid yourself, Kreia's ultimate goal was to destroy the Force and have surviving populations not dependent on it or it's use. If she was given a choice to completely destroy the Force or cut off everyone's connection to it for a few generations until her view of the Force was accepted; she would choose Door Number One without a second's hesitation.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Temeluchus