toni Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Awesome post, best I've seen in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FodderofCannon Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 There is skill in this game?? Could have fooled me. I mean there is lack of skill, sure, but once you figure your class out and have a basic understanding of the classes you are fighting this game is just MATH battles. I mean all MMO's are. They are just stats man. Put your epeen down, you want skill go play a FPS. And even those can be min/maxed (knowing tricks in maps, using the right weapons, ect) I think MMO nerds overestimate their own abilities. I'd say the difference between the most skilled and the least skilled is maybe 20%. The difference from an average player to and "elitz" player is likely less than 5%. I mean this game isn't really that hard. Most of it is math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brool Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I'm confused as well... Not sure if he likes your post and took my "Owned" seriously or if he really enjoys reading the OP's posts of self glorification. oh well... time for moar pew pew and less type type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) There is skill in this game?? Could have fooled me. I mean there is lack of skill, sure, but once you figure your class out and have a basic understanding of the classes you are fighting this game is just MATH battles. I mean all MMO's are. They are just stats man. Put your epeen down, you want skill go play a FPS. And even those can be min/maxed (knowing tricks in maps, using the right weapons, ect) I think MMO nerds overestimate their own abilities. I'd say the difference between the most skilled and the least skilled is maybe 20%. The difference from an average player to and "elitz" player is likely less than 5%. I mean this game isn't really that hard. Most of it is math. Why is there always THIS guy? And there is always the "I'm better than you" guy (The OP)... All we're missing is the "Nerf Marauders" guy and this thread will be complete. Oh yeah... and FPS games are just pointing and clicking... and playing football is just tossing a mass of air surrounded by leather. :rolleyes: Edited June 20, 2012 by UGLYMRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laforet Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The OP is 100% right in all his assumptions. Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Flacko Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 What is this i dont even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The crayons...they hurt my EYEZ!! Seriously, I think I got a sun tan reading your post, and right before summer really hits too. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wishihadaname Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 what.... the... bloody............. Give me a sec to scrape my brains off the cealing...... I think this tread winz the pvp forum for all eternity. Here I was getting popcorn to watch some more e-peeners battle out about whose is bigger with plenty of angry caps lock and burger ladened sweat spit at the screen, and then I get to all of this. You guys rule, keep on trollin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 A day later.... /contented /cigarette "so, were you... Safe?" "I got it under control, baby" /cast Shock VOICEOVER: It was as if a million zygotes suddenly cried out in terror, and we're silent. 6 weeks later.... You: I have something to tell you.... I'm, uhhhh... well I'm late Me: /obfuscate /predation GG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatFrosty Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Be glad he didn't call if flop ball or commie ball. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, because 99% of the world is too poor to play football. Also, the use of the term "soccer" is originally from England and predates the term "football". It's almost as if you were suggesting elements of your language originated from England... or as it were, the English... interesting... Edited June 20, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordofSodan Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sounds like someone needed to knock the cobwebs of of their epeen. Do you consider a top player as one who buys a programmable keyboard and mouse? I find that a lot of "top" players just have superior gear, and when the gear gap is closed, top then becomes subjective. Or maybe youre a bad,average,above average player who got worked by a good player and you felt the need to vent. Either way you sound like a douche to me./epeen thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FodderofCannon Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Why is there always THIS guy? And there is always the "I'm better than you" guy (The OP)... All we're missing is the "Nerf Marauders" guy and this thread will be complete. Oh yeah... and FPS games are just pointing and clicking... and playing football is just tossing a mass of air surrounded by leather. :rolleyes: And there is always the guy that thinks he's so much "above" all the other posters. Still not buying it. FPS require very precise reaction times to maximize your results. This game? Not really. MMO's are still really the evil step children of pen and paper games that rely on dice rolling and math to determine combat results, not reflexes and strategy. It's just not the same world. Throw gear into it, and it's clearly not about skill. I mean I do 1000dps you do 500dps. We both have a 1000hps. I win. Your skill is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunayson Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) I am stunned and inclined to unsub. Actually, statistically, he's right. If A = B, B = C, C = D, D = E, and E = G (They're all equal, obviously), then A + B + C = D + E + G. But, if each class were statistically equal in every way, you would no longer have mechanically different classes. The percieved imbalance comes from the extreme advantage in certain situations, instead of the imbalance be modest, so it's still less about the class you play. Of course so far what I am saying is based on class balance (Since anyone can get gear, it should be removed for PvP IMO.. all gear.. Period). The only imbalances should be that of classes, not of gear. EDIT: Since the average forum user is like 13, they'll have not the attention span nor the intelligence to at least make an attempt to (let alone succeed in) understanding my point, I will make an example: Different classes: Choose between brute damage, or snares/knockbacks/utilities. The class with brute damage still has some knockbacks and the utility class still has some damage. In a blank room (Arena, these kids call it these days), there is absolutely no reason to be the utility class. However, in huttball, the pull + fire vent does way more damage than the normal brute force's damage. This leads to a perceived imbalance because class A (Brute force) was able to insta-gib class B (Utility). The differences in classes, for perceived balance, would have to be even. Statistically, everyone does the same damage. However, the way they deliver the damage, the speed at which it is delivered, etc. will be different to achieve a mechanically different play style (AKA what defines a class), while still maintaining a statistically similar result. Moar examples, since you don't know what I'm talking about: Burst damage does just that: Burst. In the first 5 seconds of the fight, the burst does more damage than the DPS, yet by 10 seconds, the DPS does more (And by the same amount, else, there is an imbalance). By 15 seconds, the burst, by 20, the DPS, etc. Graphing their damage per GCD would look approximately like a transverse wave with a static amplitude vs a standing wave (Assuming the DPS is doing the same constant DPS, and the burst's average DPS over a long period of time is equal to that). Gear is an entirely different matter, since gear is not reliant on class, playstyle, etc. It is more of an I WIN button. As explained by a poster above me: I do 1000 dps, you do 500 dps. We both have 1000 hp. I win. Your skill is irrelevant. To make that a fair fight, the narrator would have to have 500 hp. Then, each person's TTk would be the same. Their is no gear imbalance - because the narrator chose to gear damage over defense, which is a strategic (Or lack thereof) decision, part of playing an RPG. However, due to the different damage types, a tactics vanguard (Full elemental/internal damage, save for stockstrike) would completely bypass one's armor, unmitigated. This complexity completely nullifies a tank's (Or anyone who stacks defensive stats) advantage. Taking gear out of the equation wouldn't make you fight naked, that'd be like taking away skill points. Statistical customization is part of an MMO, but the imbalance is drawn when one's accumulative stats are higher (e.i. Rakata geared player vs Tionese). True RPG PvP would have everyone: Be at the same TIER of gear. This means everyone either had to have all Rakata, or Battlemaster, or greens. They could, of course, choose any set they wanted to. Not doing so would take out the strategy in gearing. /rant Edited June 21, 2012 by Zunayson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 PvP should be about : bring the player and not the class. Yes and no. With the way classes work off each other in this game sometimes it's good to have a certain class around to help support the team. ]PvP should be about : Balancing 1v1 and small scale pvp will translate into balance in larger groups No it won't. It will just make some classes so much more OP'ed in a group setting because of the way they synergize with each other class. 1v1's aren't anything and not a metric for balance at all nor should the thought of balancing around all 1v1's would make a class like sorc/sage who has awesome team support so stupid op'ed and make them more valuable to a group over other classes who can't help the group as much, you know like pre 1.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (originally meant as a reply, but decided to give it a thread of its own) If any of you have been on mmo forums, you would see why Rock >paper > scissors 1v1, FOTM, RNG, GEAR difference... class favoritism in certain aspects of pvp is needed from a BUSINESS point of view. Because without all that, 99% of the players (bad-average-above average)... would "never" have a snowball's chance in hell of winning against the other 1% (pro players ). And it 50/50~ balance would create a "static food" chain in pvp. So, from a business POV, having 99% of your customers unhappy is counter productive.... ... and thus rock>paper>scissors, patch shifting FOTM, RNG (crits, dmg range, procs etc.).... came to be. Because without the "luck" opportunity or developer favoritism players could never win vs opponents above their skill level. There is a side effect tho, which sadly is neglected, because they do not see its importance : The above benefit those Pro players as well, effectively giving them Godlike status in pvp. And while players can win sometimes "out of their league" under the influence of the above, most of the time players will "crush" the ones under them in the pvp food chain because of the same thing. It provides players with a false sense of "skill", and then they don't understand what is happening when they get crushed in pvp, ending up whining on the forum. They like when they benefit from "the above" but hate that "others" do as well. Too bad that this concept only achieves its desired effect in 1v1 between different classes /specs. That's why rock >paper>scissors, RNG, FOTM...etc system is OUTDATED, The few occasions it allows players to "overstep" their skill level.... is not enough to compensate for the considerable larger number of times, they get steamrolled without having a chance to win. . And thus the MMO forums are born.---->This system has no place in modern games TLDR : PvP should be about : bring the player and not the class. Balancing 1v1 and small scale pvp will translate into balance in larger groups, but the opposite is never true. reading all of this leaves me with one question. How is Rock>paper>scissors? Troll time:D Seriously though. The pvp relies on gear slightly(loosely of course) more than skill. Something that will never change.Unless a majority of the pvp community gets more skilled. But in the words of Ron "Tater Salad" White "You can't fix stupid." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awayy Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) self proclaimed video game "pro"... is there even a joke here? -I have 3 cats named after Lord of the Rings characters *Raises hand* Merry, Pippin, and Sam. MMO players can be really sensitive. A lot of people care whether or not others think they are good players. I think people who put together events and promote an active and friendly gaming community are the real pros . Edited June 21, 2012 by Awayy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 If you are a rock, then your ability to actively avoid the paper while trying to engage only scissors,is a part of skill. It's a part of situational awareness. There's nothing 'outdated' with a rock - paper - scissors system of class/builds and counter class/builds. What's outdated, rather, is the mindset of the individual player that wants/needs to be able to defeat everything under equal circumstances. Selecting a build and class means you are investing into certain strengths and accepting certain weaknesses that follow - hence, avoiding a seriously disadvantaged combat with a class/build that exists for the specific purpose of killing your type, and commencing an advantaged combat against a class/build that you exist to fight, is an essential part of what makes PvP tactical... and if you want 'skill', defeating someone under such a disadvantage is a plenty worthy goal enough. Denying this only leads to one of the following: (1) homogenization of all classes, with the only difference being the looks (2) "buffing" up all classes and giving all of them everything useful in PvP (which conceptually runs along the line of 'don't nerf OP classes, buff other classes to OP level" argument) ==> the end result being general power inflation. PvP in a game where power inflation happens, is like the most boring PvP ever, where all classes and all builds become so powerful that players become passive/defensive, timid, everybody resorting to run-and-gun, hit-and-run tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 What about lizard and Spock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artthen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Greetings! We ask that threads center on discussion of Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. Threads made to criticize the community do not foster constructive discussion and are considered off-topic, so we have closed this thread. If you have feedback, we encourage you to contact us at communitysupport@swtor.com. Thanks for understanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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