Thoughts on GameSpy's Article on SWTOR

[CelCawdro]

To start, they've gone to great lengths to tear down the iron wall that is "player un-cooperation." That is to say, ArenaNet has developed a game that actively encourages players to cooperate; there's no competing for resource nodes, no competing for mobs or bosses, and no inherent competition between factions that necessarily seals away the two sides behind their own game.

 

That, by itself, is a breath of fresh air into the genre as a whole.

 

Double-edged sword. They're also doing away with virtually every reason to socialize in a genre that is based upon that very concept. You are essentially getting a solo experience, and in order to get the most out of it, you need to have other solo players near you.

 

I guess it is too much to ask of the genre's playerbase to actually communicate like human beings, though.

[Lenlo]

...-So go ahead and bank all your hopes and dreams on GW2. Let them know what you think about it on their official foru... Oops... Sorry, forgot they wouldn't be having one. Oh well. I guess that's why you kept your TOR sub so you can talk about it here. BioWare thanks you for the money.

 

This to ALL people bashing TOR in favor of GW2. I hope that game dies when people realize it is neither TOR nor WoW.

[Final_Fantasy]

I remember when people talked this way about D3......

[Muskaan]

To start, they've gone to great lengths to tear down the iron wall that is "player un-cooperation." That is to say, ArenaNet has developed a game that actively encourages players to cooperate; there's no competing for resource nodes, no competing for mobs or bosses, and no inherent competition between factions that necessarily seals away the two sides behind their own game.

 

That, by itself, is a breath of fresh air into the genre as a whole.

 

From the outside, that's what it looks like. However--

 

Incident 1

-------------

I have had cases during the beta weekend when I was fighting a tough mob and a random player just let me die so that they can rez me and get the XP for it.

 

Incident 2

--------------

Me and another person defending an outpost from Centaur invasion. I am a warrior and he is some sort of ranged - i think was a mesmer. Centaur wave comes in - 7 to 8 centaurs. Some 2-3 NPC rush in to fight them. I go in. We eventually get overwhelmed by the centaurs. Being a melee, I get focus fired. I stick around fighting on and look around for support. Mr Mesmer has already run away for his life.

"Dude, help."

"No, I am outa here."

"***?? You should have told me you were going to run away. I wouldn't have engaged and got agro on the mobs."

"I needed you to get agro so that I can run away"

"Really?? Good job man."

Edited June 20, 2012 by Muskaan

[Shingara]

Yep, I agree actually heh.

 

I am not sure if you had a chance to play GW2 from one of the beta weekends yet or not though.

 

Once you play it, you can easily see how it could translate to a console, its very streamlined, look at the ability bar and weapon swapping, a controller has enough buttons to manage that .

 

Grab it for the PC first, wait and see what people say about the console version, if it pans out the same as the fantastic PC version we have, then heck I will buy that one too and I can play relaxed on my couch and big screen TV =)

 

How streamlined does an mmo have to become to fit and work on a console though, it wasnt because wow didnt have enough money that they didnt do it. The fact that what your doing from lvl 1 to mid level is what your going tobe doing at top level doesnt enfuse me with great optimisum. The cash shop doesnt make me feel any better either.

[Kharnis]

Considering that you equate criticism in an article to praise, are you sure you should be adopting an attitude and accusing others of not understanding something?

 

See? I can do it too, but we haven't gotten anywhere, have we?

 

We disagree. Please move on.

 

Um...except that my arguments don't come down to a "No, you!" Or have you seen some post of mine where I equated criticism to praise that I'm unaware of? If so, do feel free to show it to me. Unless you've decided to devolve this to the lowest level of childish behaviour, of course, in which case I'll have to bow out. I haven't been a child in a long time.

 

And no, that wasn't criticism disguised as praise, or praise disguised as criticism.

[Sporin]

Different strokes for different folks. I have engaged in instanced and open world pvp (yes I've jacked and been jacked quite a bit out on various planets) and enjoyed it.

 

I'm not sure that country your in, but in the one I'm from this means something TOTALLY different to PvP, unless ofc it means "the internet is for - Vrs - the internet is for!" Lol.

[Fox_McCloud]

What happens when that newness wears out though? You have to ask yourself that question and it is fair to ask.

 

SWTOR follows a tradition that is likely to keep many players still playing. GW2 "Innovations" on endgame are unproven in the long run, whether you think it's fun or not in a weekends time doesn't mean much when players will log on everyday to experience the same thing.

 

I agree that GW2 end game is untested by the mass public. We will have to see if it works. I am not a blind fan boy I can admit that. Lets wait and see, but so far anet and the core testers who have been in the game quite a long time seem to think that its working. We will see if the public agrees.

 

Some things to keep in mind, Anet has already announced that they have developed Dynamic Event building tools to help them make dynamic events quickly after launch of the game. This way they can add a bunch of new events in at random different parts of the world. The next time you walk through some zone, something new might happen. Apparently this is a pretty big deal.

 

As for releasing on Consoles...we'll see...that's not always a good thing.

 

Ask DCUO. I think having a console version was anything but good for that game.

 

We will have to wait and see on that.

 

All I know currently is that the PC version is far and away the best MMO I have played so far. Maybe the console version will be worse, but I am not sure. The game seems designed from the ground up to work well with a controller too. Compare the amount of buttons on your bar to that of SWTOR, GW2 seems like it may work on a console. Either way, I will wait and buy the console version later, I already purchased the PC version which I know is great =)

[Etapi]

Oh. I apologize. Did you have any concrete evidence to the contrary? Oh? What's that? You mean you can only discount my statement by making nonsense arguments based purely on conjecture? You disagree that this game lacks more than it offers on what grounds? Clearly you must be hiding some empirical evidence around here somewhere...

 

When will you people learn that your opinions are just as opinion-y as ours?

 

There is plenty of positive feedback in the article. I have to assume you ignored it because it doesn't fit your world-view. Shame on you.

 

Please use your empirical evidence to point out the positive feedback that the articles author (a known SWTOR hater) included in the article in such a plentiful manner, as you state. It is not there, there is nothing to see there other than a thinly vieled advertisement for GW2.

[Dezzi]

I've played both, and can't bring myself to agree with the article.

 

1.) GW story yanks you out of the game and into a cutscene that would have been cliche and outdated in the 90's. Story doesn't get in the way of game play because the two never overlap. In fact most of the pve appears to be grinding different area quest that are completely free of story.

 

2.) Raiding is about player interaction, I know the people I raid with, their jobs, their families, and quite a bit besides. In guild wars I'd be hard pressed to remember anyone I completed an area quest with, and I'll never get the chance to raid with them. Being part of a raid is like being on a sports team, you get to know your team mates, you actively work on your teamwork, and contribute to a whole greater than the sum of the parts. Participating in Area quest in guild wars is like being part of a lynch mob, an anonymous person in a crowd marginally contributing.

 

3.) I disagree with the reviewer but feels is a hard thing to say one way or another.

 

4.) So the lack of an end game outside of PvP is a feature now? They were really reaching on that one. If the only thing I can do at 50 is grindy world events or PvP, I'm basically playing a crippled version of RIFT.

 

5.) Bioware has been much more responsive since the management changes.

 

Also anyone else sick of the kid gloves treatment that Guild Wars 2 is getting? I was stoked for it before I played it, and playing it reminded me why I'm generally a cynic for video game hype.

 

1. Definitely. The cut scenes in GW2 are jarring and uninspired, but I'm confident that the "Work in Progress" stamp above them means they're actively being looked at. That said, I'm not sure GW2 advertises itself as the next big story MMO beyond the fact that you can tailor your questions at character creation.

 

2. Why can't you and your team work together in GW2's WvW? I assume PvP doesn't appeal to you. Fair enough, but there are raid-like dungeons in GW2 that you can work together to complete. The difference is that GW2 doesn't reserve that gameplay solely for the end game crowd.

 

3. I'm not sure how you can disagree when BioWare themselves are saying the same thing.

 

4. No there is plenty of PvE to be had at "end game." Here, I think, ArenaNet needs to do a better job of explaining how they've done away with traditional end game. I know it's difficult to understand on the face of it, but when you see it--and play it--it makes much more sense.

 

5. Took them long enough...

[Dezzi]

From the outside, that's what it looks like. However--

 

Incident 1

-------------

I have had cases during the beta weekend when I was fighting a tough mob and a random player just let me die so that they can rez me and get the XP for it.

 

Incident 2

--------------

Me and another person defending an outpost from Centaur invasion. I am a warrior and he is some sort of ranged - i think was a mesmer. Centaur wave comes in - 7 to 8 centaurs. Some 2-3 NPC rush in to fight them. I go in. We eventually get overwhelmed by the centaurs. Being a melee, I get focus fired. I stick around fighting on and look around for support. Mr Mesmer has already run away for his life.

"Dude, help."

"No, I am outa here."

"***?? You should have told me you were going to run away. I wouldn't have engaged and got agro on the mobs."

"I needed you to get agro so that I can run away"

"Really?? Good job man."

 

Sure, but then you can't change human behavior; the game still puts the incentive on cooperative play. Unless you consider mob stealing and node stealing to be cooperative and good for community development? I contend the opposite is true and my experience in GW2 has proven it.

[Fox_McCloud]

This to ALL people bashing TOR in favor of GW2. I hope that game dies when people realize it is neither TOR nor WoW.

 

The fact that it is neither TOR nor WOW will be exactly why it succeeds. It is different, it is the next generation.

[Muskaan]

The biggest thing about GW2 is that it doesn't require a subscription.

[Dyvid]

In what ways is GW2 transcending the genre. I played both the beta weekends. So, please feel free to give me concrete examples on what you think GW2 has done to become the next big thing in MMO games.

Same. I only played for maybe an hour or two before I got bored and logged off to play SWTOR.

[Dezzi]

Double-edged sword. They're also doing away with virtually every reason to socialize in a genre that is based upon that very concept. You are essentially getting a solo experience, and in order to get the most out of it, you need to have other solo players near you.

 

I guess it is too much to ask of the genre's playerbase to actually communicate like human beings, though.

 

Personal preferences aside, the point is that it's a new approach. The person I was responding to wanted evidence of where GW2 is deviating from the norm. This would be an example.

 

Now, it remains to be seen how this will turn out in the long run, but my experience thus far has been positive.

 

I'd also like to draw attention to your insinuation that solo-play is perhaps a bad thing; SWTOR prides itself on offering a single-player experience for those who want it. If solo-play should be discouraged "in a genre that is based upon [the] very concept," then I wager SWTOR isn't doing to well in that department either.

[Typeslice]

The biggest thing about GW2 is that it doesn't require a subscription.

 

Which means people will have no idea when people just stop playing. There will be no "OMG GW2 lost 500k subs!" Well played anet, well played...

[CelCawdro]

Same. I only played for maybe an hour or two before I got bored and logged off to play SWTOR.

 

From the people that I know, personally, that have played it, I can state that they are split into two groups: the first are those who were simply aware of the game - they played the beta, and logged off, confused about the hype; the second are those who were actively following the game - they played the beta, and maybe another, and tell everyone that they're wait to "get to the meat of it" when it releases before passing judgement.

[Dezzi]

Please use your empirical evidence to point out the positive feedback that the articles author (a known SWTOR hater) included in the article in such a plentiful manner, as you state. It is not there, there is nothing to see there other than a thinly vieled advertisement for GW2.

 

The comparative nature of the article necessarily means that the author is pointing out places where SWTOR can improve. That's how comparisons work--they go both ways. The fact that the author goes into detail on how GW2 "does it better" is icing on the cake because it provides pin-point areas that BioWare should look at if it plans to be any competition at all to GW2 in these areas.

 

It very well could be that BioWare doesn't care about these things. Fair enough.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Crash-X]

I agree that GW2 end game is untested by the mass public. We will have to see if it works. I am not a blind fan boy I can admit that. Lets wait and see, but so far anet and the core testers who have been in the game quite a long time seem to think that its working. We will see if the public agrees.

 

Some things to keep in mind, Anet has already announced that they have developed Dynamic Event building tools to help them make dynamic events quickly after launch of the game. This way they can add a bunch of new events in at random different parts of the world. The next time you walk through some zone, something new might happen. Apparently this is a pretty big deal.

 

 

 

We will have to wait and see on that.

 

All I know currently is that the PC version is far and away the best MMO I have played so far. Maybe the console version will be worse, but I am not sure. The game seems designed from the ground up to work well with a controller too. Compare the amount of buttons on your bar to that of SWTOR, GW2 seems like it may work on a console. Either way, I will wait and buy the console version later, I already purchased the PC version which I know is great =)

 

I'm wait and see on it as well.

 

I'll be playing GW2, I think the question is the same question any player has with any MMO...for how long will I be playing it.

 

Everything sounds nice on paper but I'm not going to get myself too hyped on it. Eventually that newness wears out for every game and then that's when you can really see how good a game is. Beta weekends just like game demos just add to that hype IMO because it's like a big tease. You can only play for a couple of days then suddenly it's taken away from you!

 

A lot of people said the same thing about SWTOR when they had early beta's, and in every beta as well. About how they can't wait to get back to it. Same thing about D3 and now the forums are a wreck with how people aren't going to buy another Blizzard game (lol)

 

I mean we'll see. I do like the ideas they are going for, getting rid of the trinity (or lessening it) and not making it a "Raid or Die" game. I like the trinity but I think it would be much better if you and your friends could get together no matter the class.

[Dezzi]

Which means people will have no idea when people just stop playing. There will be no "OMG GW2 lost 500k subs!" Well played anet, well played...

 

It's not new for ArenaNet; it's not some conspiracy to escape the evil clutches of subscription numbers. This is a developer founded by people who wanted to make AAA-title F2P MMOs.

 

There should be no surprise.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Muskaan]

It's not new for ArenaNet; it's not some conspiracy to escape the clutches of subscription numbers. This is a developer founded by people who wanted to make AAA-title F2P MMOs.

 

There should be no surprise.

 

Except for that Guild Wars (the original game) is not classified as an MMO. So GW2 will be Anet's first venture into the MMO market.

[Typeslice]

It's not new for ArenaNet; it's not some conspiracy to escape the clutches of subscription numbers. This is a developer founded by people who wanted to make AAA-title F2P MMOs.

 

There should be no surprise.

 

Never said I was surprised. I'm well aware of anet's model.

[Blackardin]

I'm sorry, you don't get to question my opinions (I wasn't aware we needed a disclaimer when posting opinions) with your own opinions and then hop up on a moral high ground.

 

I'm also really sorry if people aren't able to discern the difference between an authoritative objective article and one based on opinion. At no time did the author of the article make the claim that he's speaking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; it was perfectly clear from the start that he was giving us his opinion.

 

You made it round and round when you called me out for doing exactly what you do.

 

So I guess we're done. Can I get back to having a thoughtful discussion with everyone else, please?

 

Yes, you can get back to your meaningful discussion with others as it seems that you will neither retract or confront the challenge to your statement, but instead level further ad-hominems.

 

I would rather chose to agree to disagree but to each their own. ;p

[Fox_McCloud]

How streamlined does an mmo have to become to fit and work on a console though, it wasnt because wow didnt have enough money that they didnt do it. The fact that what your doing from lvl 1 to mid level is what your going tobe doing at top level doesnt enfuse me with great optimisum. The cash shop doesnt make me feel any better either.

 

Fair enough criticism, respectable honestly.

 

GW2 has shown however that they have a lot of functionality crammed into a few skills. They also organize it better. Instead of having bars all over your screen for abilities you need to only click on the night of a full moon when its raining and only if there is a red flower in front of you (exaggeration i know heh), they have a bar with 10 buttons.

 

Add to that a weapon swap that changes the first 5 buttons into another 5 new buttons. This translates to a controller well. Also instead of having three different melee attacks that all do damage, GW2 has weapon chains press 1 do the first strike, press 1 again and you get the second different kind of strike, press it again and get some special effect. Same as the three buttons but streamlined into one button.

 

It is really something you have to play to understand. I can say that there is enough variety, that leveling is not boring with "the same old skills". Also, most MMOs you have your basic set of skills early on. In WOW my mage had all the abilities i used by like 28 or so for the most part. But level cap was 60 heh,

 

As for the cash shop, when they announced that it pissed me right off, I immediately thought they were ruining a great game. However arena net has over a decade long history of running cash shop (GW1) and not letting it ever effect game play balance. They have stated that they take it very seriously and that unlike other games no in game power can be bought through the cash shop. Once I understood how it all works, it actually seems quite neat =)

[CelCawdro]

Personal preferences aside, the point is that it's a new approach. The person I was responding to wanted evidence of where GW2 is deviating from the norm. This would be an example.

 

Now, it remains to be seen how this will turn out in the long run, but my experience thus far has been positive.

 

I'd also like to draw attention to your insinuation that solo-play is perhaps a bad thing; SWTOR prides itself on offering a single-player experience for those who want it. If solo-play should be discouraged "in a genre that is based upon [the] very concept," then I wager SWTOR isn't doing to well in that department either.

 

I never said it was. In fact, I'm extremely disappointed by the lack of consideration for SW:TOR's community (particularly with the recent server merges, as contradictory as that seems). But the same can be said for most MMOs. You seem to think that I'm some sort of SW:TOR fanboy. I am not. I simply hate biased, sensationalist "journalism" that pervades our shared hobby. I also have a growing distaste for the marketers in the industry - it is one thing to hype a feature, it is another to mislead the playerbase as to what form said feature will take.

 

And as a sidenote, I still /facepalm whenever I recall one of GW2's developers essentially claiming that they invented dryads, simply because their take on the species is young. There is so much bloody hype around this game and everything surrounding it, from the gameplay to the lore.

 

And it's all going to come crashing down.

 

Which is unfortunate, because the core experience is enjoyable. It just isn't what Arena.Net is hyping it up to be.