Thoughts on GameSpy's Article on SWTOR

[Fox_McCloud]

Hi everyone,

 

An article was posted a few days ago on gamespy dealing with their thoughts about SWTOR current state:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1225122p1.html

 

The article was a follow up from one they wrote back when the game was released, or maybe slightly before. It seems their writer was pretty spot on with concerns mentioned in Nov of 2011:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1212884p1.html

 

Do you agree with Gamespy or does SWTOR have what it takes to compete with upcoming MMORPGS? I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

[Sunstarr]

Oh look, another thinly disguised/posted article on GW2. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

[Amera]

It's largely accurate. Most MMO gamers will prefer the systems in Gw2 to Tor. That doesn't meant Tor is going to suddenly fall apart, though. I imagine most of the people left at this point are probably around to stay because they like the formula.

[BenjaminminU]

Disagree with points 1,2, 4 and 5. Point 3 is being worked on.

 

Story doesn't really get in the way of gameplay already, with the server transfers now done it gives us loads of oppertunity for player interaction. By the sound of it GW2 has the same system of flashpoints and world bosses that TOR has, and recently bioware has really improved their communication with players.

 

I think that the developers of that game have just lined gamespy's pockets to attract more people to their game...

[Blackardin]

Hi everyone,

 

An article was posted a few days ago on gamespy dealing with their thoughts about SWTOR current state:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1225122p1.html

 

The article was a follow up from one they wrote back when the game was released, or maybe slightly before. It seems their writer was pretty spot on with concerns mentioned in Nov of 2011:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1212884p1.html

 

Do you agree with Gamespy or does SWTOR have what it takes to compete with upcoming MMORPGS? I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

 

I disagree with their conjecture and negativity no less then I do that which is posted on these boards.

 

Honestly, how hard is it to put up a web page and begin critiquing something that one has little to no experience with beyond that of a player. It, to me, is just another nit picky argument put forth from a different variation of the drama queens we see here. They simply cannot have fun with this game, and never will because they are far more focused on what it does not have then what it does.

[Nyla]

I disagree with the #1, I prefer SWTOR's way and really GW2 VO are horrible.

 

I disagree with the #2, the public events are confusing and playing alongside other people is not player interactions, it needs communication and organization and it doesn't happen in GW2.

 

I agree with the #3, it's a problem with TOR mentioned for a long time.

 

As for the #4, TOR has both. You can not participate in end-game content and level alts or if you want to, there's an end-game too. I didn't find something special in GW2 except there's no endgame at all.

 

I disagree with the #5 and it's completely stupid to compare a game in beta without release date with what happen in a live game, of course, it changes faster for GW2, that always happen for every game when every system is finished, put together and tweaked.

[Dezzi]

I disagree with their conjecture and negativity no less then I do that which is posted on these boards.

 

Honestly, how hard is it to put up a web page and begin critiquing something that one has little to no experience with beyond that of a player. It, to me, is just another nit picky argument put forth from a different variation of the drama queens we see here. They simply cannot have fun with this game, and never will because they are far more focused on what it does not have then what it does.

 

I'm sorry, I thought games were made for players? Aren't players the ones perfectly qualified to critique games? Players are certainly allowed to praise a game, but the moment something negative is posted, the fans start foaming.

 

When the game lacks more than it offers, you're darn right it'll be the focus.

[Blackardin]

....and I might add, if one were to look, that this OP's posting history is filled with post after post bashing our game, most of which are his person opinon or conjecture. Do not let the "Oh, look what I tripped over on the internet" facade fool you. It would appear that he went hunting for negativity and found Beavis and Butt-Head out there bloviating about how they could do it better. ;p

[VanderII]

I agreed with this sentence: "Once you leave the vivid cutscenes, most of SWTOR's galaxy is a pretty lifeless place" It's true, in swtor is all static, there isn't changement, npcs attack only after your first attack, it's all too static in swtor and that's a very negative aspect of this game.

Regarding the PvP aspect we can't say anything because SWTOR is a PvE game and GW2 is a PvP game.

Edited June 20, 2012 by VanderII

[aeterno]

Gotta give it to GW2, they manage to turn traditional weakness into their strenghts. Or so some say.

 

No end content in your mmo? booooo. GW2 has no traditional end game content? Thats genious, why hasn't anyone ever thought of that before?!

[DiabloDoom]

Gamespy ruined DOW with their crappy servers, I don't know if the review is good or bad and it doesn't matter because their opinion is worthless when they ruined DOW.

[Blackardin]

I'm sorry, I thought games were made for players? Aren't players the ones perfectly qualified to critique games? Players are certainly allowed to praise a game, but the moment something negative is posted, the fans start foaming.

 

When the game lacks more than it offers, you're darn right it'll be the focus.

 

First, this game does not "lack more then it offers" That argument is nonsense. It is exactly the type of conjecture we slog through on these boards day after day, fallacy of mind projection.

 

Second, there is a difference between providing positive feedback and just plain ole whining and disparaging as if one could build a better mousetrap. You drive a car, no? Can you build one? That is what these two are doing, not providing positive feedback. Lets not start playing the red herring game here.

[Dezzi]

First, this game does not "lack more then it offers" That argument is nonsense. It is exactly the type of conjecture we slog through on these boards day after day, fallacy of mind projection.

 

Second, there is a difference between providing positive feedback and just plain ole whining and disparaging as if one could build a better mousetrap. You drive a car, no? Can you build one? That is what these two are doing, not providing positive feedback. Lets not start playing the red herring game here.

 

Oh. I apologize. Did you have any concrete evidence to the contrary? Oh? What's that? You mean you can only discount my statement by making nonsense arguments based purely on conjecture? You disagree that this game lacks more than it offers on what grounds? Clearly you must be hiding some empirical evidence around here somewhere...

 

When will you people learn that your opinions are just as opinion-y as ours?

 

There is plenty of positive feedback in the article. I have to assume you ignored it because it doesn't fit your world-view. Shame on you.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[NoxiousAlby]

Firstly I wont be playing GW2, my MMORPG days are coming to an end

 

It's interesting to see that GW2 claims to be the ultimate casual friendly game where raids are a thing of the past, I seem to remember SWTOR making the claim of being the ultimate casual friendly MMO on the market then they gave us HM LI.

 

As to the 5 points made by GameSpy I would actually agree with every one of them except number 2. The days of the interation between members of the MMO community are gone. It wont matter what the game is players will not mingle as they did 7+ years ago, its the times we live in and those days are over.

[Dezzi]

Firstly I wont be playing GW2, my MMORPG days are coming to an end

 

It's interesting to see that GW2 claims to be the ultimate casual friendly game where raids are a thing of the past, I seem to remember SWTOR making the claim of being the ultimate casual friendly MMO on the market then they gave us HM LI.

 

As to the 5 points made by GameSpy I would actually agree with every one of them except number 2. The days of the interation between members of the MMO community are gone. It wont matter what the game is players will not mingle as they did 7+ years ago, its the times we live in and those days are over.

 

I think you're right about their second point; it very much seems like people play MMOs to be away from people just as people move to cities to... be away from people. It's a very strange trend, but anti-social behavior does indeed seem to be the mode of the century.

 

Sorry to hear you're moving on from MMOs.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[jarjarloves]

well I played GW2 beta and i decided not to preorder it. However i'm still playing SWTOR.

 

GW2's world may feel more alive but it's still a generic fantasy world which i've seen time after time.

PVP in GW2 reminds me of Warhammers where people actually avoid big fights if they think they will lose and instead try to attack empty keeps just like in Warhammer you spend your time attacking doors.

 

theres more but yeah GW2 is just not for me.

 

As for the article it sounds like they are setting themseleves up for failure. Hype up the unreleased MMO and get everyones expectations really high and then move on to the next big thing when it's finallly released.

[Dezzi]

well I played GW2 beta and i decided not to preorder it. However i'm still playing SWTOR.

 

GW2's world may feel more alive but it's still a generic fantasy world which i've seen time after time.

PVP in GW2 reminds me of Warhammers where people actually avoid big fights if they think they will lose and instead try to attack empty keeps just like in Warhammer you spend your time attacking doors.

 

theres more but yeah GW2 is just not for me.

 

As for the article it sounds like they are setting themseleves up for failure. Hype up the unreleased MMO and get everyones expectations really high and then move on to the next big thing when it's finallly released.

 

To be fair, GW2 might as well be released; they lifted the NDA for these beta weekends so there's no spin in the press. Articles and opinions are being penned by people who've actually played the game and can give honest feedback. AreaNet is letting their game stand on its own in the face of criticism and it's doing far better in the press than SWTOR ever did post-release (BioWare and EA got to spin a web behind the NDA).

 

As with any game, however, there are weaknesses. I think we're all just looking for games that have strengths that appeal to our play styles. SWTOR doesn't do much for me as a story-crafting roleplayer, but GW2 does. As it's my primary mode of playing an MMO, you can guess where I'll be.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[DarthKhaos]

Yesterday I stepped out of the station on Hoth and began speeding my way to my objective. After miles and miles of snow and ice I think one thing. This truly feels like what Hoth should be like. Lotsa snow, wrecked ships, small outposts covered by snow and wild untamed wilderness.

 

When I play TOR I feel like I'm part of the Universe. It's not one big ole flat piece of space. I spent some time trying to go over a mountain on a few occasions. Sometimes I succeeded sometimes I didn't. Standing on the top looking out I can see how epic the landscape is. When I speed through cities and stations I see a bunch of no-name peons going about their daily activities. No I don't want to interact with all of em because I have no reason to.

 

And the cutscenes makes me enjoy playing the game instead of click npc, click accept, go, no idea what the quest is about but I got it and I'm going.

 

So go ahead and bank all your hopes and dreams on GW2. Let them know what you think about it on their official foru... Oops... Sorry, forgot they wouldn't be having one. Oh well. I guess that's why you kept your TOR sub so you can talk about it here. BioWare thanks you for the money.

[Sanxxx]

Hype up the unreleased MMO and get everyones expectations really high and then move on to the next big thing when it's finallly released.

 

Seem to happen every time, history repeating itself.

[Dezzi]

Yesterday I stepped out of the station on Hoth and began speeding my way to my objective. After miles and miles of snow and ice I think one thing. This truly feels like what Hoth should be like. Lotsa snow, wrecked ships, small outposts covered by snow and wild untamed wilderness.

 

When I play TOR I feel like I'm part of the Universe. It's not one big ole flat piece of space. I spent some time trying to go over a mountain on a few occasions. Sometimes I succeeded sometimes I didn't. Standing on the top looking out I can see how epic the landscape is. When I speed through cities and stations I see a bunch of no-name peons going about their daily activities. No I don't want to interact with all of em because I have no reason to.

 

And the cutscenes makes me enjoy playing the game instead of click npc, click accept, go, no idea what the quest is about but I got it and I'm going.

 

So go ahead and bank all your hopes and dreams on GW2. Let them know what you think about it on their official foru... Oops... Sorry, forgot they wouldn't be having one. Oh well. I guess that's why you kept your TOR sub so you can talk about it here. BioWare thanks you for the money.

 

So you like exploration and expansive worlds. Me too. GW2 provides the same--arguably better--expansive, living worlds, yet you make no comment about it. Why?

[Fox_McCloud]

So go ahead and bank all your hopes and dreams on GW2. Let them know what you think about it on their official foru... Oops... Sorry, forgot they wouldn't be having one. Oh well. I guess that's why you kept your TOR sub so you can talk about it here. BioWare thanks you for the money.

 

You are kidding right?

 

http://forum.guildwars2.com

 

Some criticism.

[Beziel]

I for one preferred GW2's beta much better than TOR's.

 

But that's just not the question here.

I agree with #1 up to a point: I had to experience SWTOR's story telling with a second leveling thru of the same faction to figure that there was a repetitiveness I could not seem to get around and could not stand much. But still I find that it makes me like my character a bit more. I just do not like that you can't choose with more freedom who comes along with you on your companion list.

 

I am on the fence with #2: in SWTOR's beta, I grouped and interacted a whole lot. It stopped happening so much about 1 month and a half after launch (and of playing on my part). Then I was pretty much getting into a more loner style of play.

 

#3 : sorry but it IS true, SWTOR is just so static and sterile. It needs more NPCs all around to populate (artificially) the maps. Because (server transfers are showing that to me) the servers themselves can't really cope with a large number of ppl in the same place. Oh and it's not all it needs, but that's one thing that comes to mind all the time to me.

 

#4: I think that being innovative in what you offer to players throughout the gaming experience is always nice. I also love that I have endgame stuff to do: if you had to level up an alt every time you hit level-cap, that would be stupid imo. But putting everything at a level cap is also a big mistake: it makes sure that when the cap is raised, everything that was previously endgame is now more or less obsolete. Until they do what Blizzard did with updates old instances: cute but just not it, really.

 

#5: Maybe what the article says is true, idk. And in the launching days and early weeks of a game, about every company should be fully (read over) staffed to better address the concerns of players as the game does its baby steps. And then that big amount of employees is cut. And then when the cruising speed of the game's development is attained, even more cuts. But to take one example: the original UI for SWTOR was a horrible thing that looked ugly and felt sticky like a dead roach. It did take some time for them to come up with some custom tools... and it just didn't cut it with me. (GIVE US locked X/Y axis)

[Blackardin]

Oh. I apologize. Did you have any concrete evidence to the contrary? Oh? What's that? You mean you can only discount my statement by making nonsense arguments based purely on conjecture? You disagree that this game lacks more than it offers on what grounds? Clearly you must be hiding some empirical evidence around here somewhere...

 

When will you people learn that your opinions are just as opinion-y as ours?

 

There is plenty of positive feedback in the article. I have to assume you ignored it because it doesn't fit your world-view. Shame on you.

 

You are arguing a logical fallacy, Burden of proof (or shifting the burden of proof). You are demanding that one prove themselves right rather then defend your argument. You stated that the game holds less then it has. I contend that as conjecture and hyperbolic, demonstrate that it is not. I'm not interested in your opinion of me, red herrings, straw men, logical fallacies, not personal attacks in the form of reprove.

 

I contend that your statement is conjecture utilized as a means of bolstering the veracity of a number of statements made on a random web page. Prove your contention. ;p

[Dezzi]

You are arguing a logical fallacy, Burden of proof (or shifting the burden of proof). You are demanding that one prove themselves right rather then defend your argument. You stated that the game holds less then it has. I contend that as conjecture and hyperbolic, demonstrate that it is not. I'm not interested in your opinion of me, red herrings, straw men, logical fallacies, not personal attacks in the form of reprove.

 

I contend that your statement is conjecture utilized as a means of bolstering the veracity of a number of statements made on a random web page. Prove your contention. ;p

 

Of course its conjecture and hyperbole! That's the point! You did exactly the same here:

First, this game does not "lack more then it offers" That argument is nonsense. It is exactly the type of conjecture we slog through on these boards day after day, fallacy of mind projection.

I draw your attention to the part where you refute my hyperbole and conjecture with... hyperbole and conjecture.

 

You're getting all huffy over an article informed by the passions of the author. Where we disagree is that you claim this author has no ground to stand on--that because their opinion is an opinion, whatever they say is patently false and objectionable. You do this here:

I disagree with their conjecture and negativity no less then I do that which is posted on these boards.

 

Honestly, how hard is it to put up a web page and begin critiquing something that one has little to no experience with beyond that of a player. It, to me, is just another nit picky argument put forth from a different variation of the drama queens we see here. They simply cannot have fun with this game, and never will because they are far more focused on what it does not have then what it does.

If you truly believe that, then you must also necessarily believe that everyone in the industry in infallible. I have news for you: The logic of your argument defends universally panned decisions made by game developers simply because "they know better."

 

Well, you're wrong. You don't have to be an expert or legendary in the field in order to have an informed opinion.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[nartiuslightlord]

Not Sure how to reply to that article? The bottom line is those GW2 fans are in for a shock. They have self hyped the game to be the second coming of all MMO's much like the poeple who self hyped this game until they had a chance to play it and TOR never could live up to their expectations.

 

there will be people like we have/had that that proclaim I hate Wow but they keep posting it lacks features of Wow so it's fail. and when BW adds those features they don't mind coming here and telling us why this game fails.

 

So I wish them well because these people you can never please and most of the reason why the current be all end all Wow killer will fail to them is because it lacks some type of PVP/endgame which is the only reason they play these MMO's.

They don't care about the journey or the story What they really desire is for blizzard to fix Wow so they can go back to it. they play these MMOs in between xpacs and wreak havoc until blizzard calls them home.

 

The end result for us is our game ends up being like Wow.

Edited June 20, 2012 by nartiuslightlord