Healers are fine. Perfectly fine. In fact probably a little more than fine.

[PicthShemet]

No, you are twisting the situation by constantly ignoring anything that doesn't suit you.

 

A WH healer is at 85% of their BASE healing- because BASE means just that, BASE. In pvp they suffer a 30% trauma debuff, which is mitigated by 15 so they end up with 85% of their BASE healing while in pvp.

 

DPS get a 30% buff to their base damage in pvp- so ultimately, healers end up at 85% of their base, and DPS at 130% of their base while in pvp gear.

 

If 70% was actually our base. But since that's 100%, if I were to get a 15% increase to healing from expertise, it'd be 115%- but, 115% of 70% is actually 80.5%- so if what you were saying was true, then in WH gear healers are actually healing 80.5% of their base pve healing. A pve heal would be 5k, a pvp heal 4k rather than 4.25k. So if what you are saying it true- then your deadly throw is actually more effective since it would increase trauma by 20%- dropping healing to 60.5% rather than 65% of base pve healing.

 

What you are trying to insist is that expertise for healers actually scales very poorly.

 

I can't speak for him, but I believe he is asserting that your base healing can be thought of as a vector that gets rescaled upon entering PVP. As such, it isn't 115% of 70%, it's simply 115%. I don't play a healer, but does your base healing actually change upon entering a warzone when compared to standing on the fleet (wearing full PVP gear in both cases)? If so, that's pretty messed up.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I can't speak for him, but I believe he is asserting that your base healing can be thought of as a vector that gets rescaled upon entering PVP. As such, it isn't 115% of 70%, it's simply 115%. I don't play a healer, but does your base healing actually change upon entering a warzone when compared to standing on the fleet (wearing full PVP gear in both cases)? If so, that's pretty messed up.

 

Basically it works like this Pic.

 

NPC's, or mobs, in this game hit way harder than players do. Especially heroic level mobs. So in PVE healers have one delve for healing. This same number can't transfer into PVP without breaking the game entirely. So whenever anyone enters PVP they get a debuff to the amount of healing they receive by 30% this is the "base" PVP healing range.

 

The pro-healer crowd. You know who they are pretty much just by reading replies. Claim that healers are underpowered and claim that they already lose 30% why should they lose an additional 20%

 

I don't even consider that 30% lost because in PVP they never had it to begin with.

 

Of course they fail to mention that pretty much every class has special abilities than simply don't work in PVP but to admit that would hurt their argument when they are trying to claim PVP = PVE.

[NoTomorrow]

The first time i saw that crit mechanics works not only for attacks but for heals too, is was in total awe.. Putting so much effort into killing somebody, while somebody gets a crit heal and just erases all that damage in a matter of seconds..

 

Pugs healing is easier than pug focus fire.

Edited June 24, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[matslarson]

Then again- you've done an impressive job proving over and over again that you have missed almost every change since patch 1.1- are you still playing the base game as it launched or something?

He can't be playing the game as it launched, because then this statement:

They aren't losing 30% of their healing in PVP because they never had that 30% in PVP to begin with.

wouldn't make sense. The Trauma debuff was added post-release, so yes Walsh, we did in fact have 100% (actual 100%, not "ProffesorWalsh's 70-is-actually-100%") healing to begin with.

 

Anyway, moving on:

I don't play a healer, but does your base healing actually change upon entering a warzone when compared to standing on the fleet (wearing full PVP gear in both cases)? If so, that's pretty messed up.

Yes PicthShemet, that's exactly what happens. Standing on fleet you do 100% healing based purely on stats/gear. The instant you enter combat in a PvP zone, a debuff called Trauma is applied by the game that reduces healing by 30%.

 

EDIT for clarification: technically your base values don't change, but your effective healing output decreases by 30% while engaged in any PvP combat.

Edited June 24, 2012 by matslarson

[fungihoujo]

I can't speak for him, but I believe he is asserting that your base healing can be thought of as a vector that gets rescaled upon entering PVP. As such, it isn't 115% of 70%, it's simply 115%. I don't play a healer, but does your base healing actually change upon entering a warzone when compared to standing on the fleet (wearing full PVP gear in both cases)? If so, that's pretty messed up.

 

No, your base healing is always the same- and you get a certain % removed by the trauma debuff in pvp. Basically- healers already get a flat 30% penalty to their healing in pvp, but that's not enough of a penalty for the prof- he wants it to be even bigger because he's not able to kill healers as a marauder. And the penalty doesn't apply in a pvp zone- it applies in pvp (try healing out of combat in a WZ and you'll see- you heal as much as you would in pve).

 

He'd like you to think he's good even though every good mara out there is saying they can chew up and spit out healers for breakfast.

Edited June 24, 2012 by fungihoujo

[fungihoujo]

Basically it works like this Pic.

 

NPC's, or mobs, in this game hit way harder than players do. Especially heroic level mobs. So in PVE healers have one delve for healing. This same number can't transfer into PVP without breaking the game entirely. So whenever anyone enters PVP they get a debuff to the amount of healing they receive by 30% this is the "base" PVP healing range.

 

The pro-healer crowd. You know who they are pretty much just by reading replies. Claim that healers are underpowered and claim that they already lose 30% why should they lose an additional 20%

 

I don't even consider that 30% lost because in PVP they never had it to begin with.

 

Of course they fail to mention that pretty much every class has special abilities than simply don't work in PVP but to admit that would hurt their argument when they are trying to claim PVP = PVE.

 

Those mobs also don't interrupt you, don't focus you, don't throw debuffs on you, and for the most part attack only one ally. Also- you get many additional stats, and tanks get additional defensive stats in pve to help them out.

 

Again- if that amount of 70% after trauma was the BASE for pvp healing, then expertise would give a 15% bonus to the base- which would make you heal at 80.5% of your pve healing while in pvp in WH gear. That's not what happens, so that's not the actual base.

 

Also- who said that the trauma debuff of 20% on abilities like deadly throw was broken? YOU are the one saying that it needs to scale, that it isn't enough- nobody's saying that it's too powerful of a debuff- you are the one who's whining here because of an ability you can use every 12 second which has a 15 second debuff doesn't scale up, and doesn't stack with other deadly throws to bring healing potentially to zero. I'm sure you wouldn't mind if a couple of another class could throw a few debuffs on you to bring your damage to zero- forever.

 

You are the one whining that you can't reduce a healer's healing to zero with a bit of help- on top of the fact that you can chain CC and interrupt them.

 

And yes, every class does have abilities that work in pve but not pvp- your point? Deadly throw is one of those abilities that works better in pvp, as does obfuscate, as does most of your marauder defensives which are not as useful in an operation but get used often in pvp. Oh- wait, you didn't mean THOSE abilities because THOSE are useful abilities for YOUR class and thus they don't count in any discussion since it would go against what YOU are trying to prove.

 

We haven't even gotten into the discussion of whether or not we think trauma is too strong/too weak, or deadly throw should scale and stack or whatever else it is you think will make you good enough to win in pvp. The discussion was culled the moment you tried to make your main point in your argument that 'healing is 115% stronger in pvp so we need something to cut it back further'.

 

Why? Because saying 'pvp is 85% of your base pve healing, that's too strong' doesn't look good for you off the bat, even though it's accurate and 115% is inaccurate (as proven multiple times).

 

Again, if expertise went off a base of 70% as if that were 100%- then with full WH gear you would be healing 80.5% of your pve healing. That isn't even what I am arguing, that is what YOU are trying to say.

 

The trauma debuff from deadly throw would take it to 60.5% of your pve healing- and you're trying to say that even with that, and your interrupts that can literally lock out the biggest heal forever, plus the free interrupt on leap, plus CC, plus high damage- you still cannot kill a healer, and that's still not enough of a penalty.

 

No other game even has a healing penalty- and this one has one of 30% and you need it to be more?

 

Don't even talk about a 'pro healing crowd' when you're rambling off your baseless nonsense. You want sentinels to be the best class in the game, bar none. You hate healers and want them to be nerfed because you find it more fun when you can kill one in a few seconds easily.

 

 

Also, what's this list of incredible abilities that a marauder has that don't work in pvp? Disable droid, savage kick, pommel strike? Oh dear, a couple abilities specifically meant for pve don't work in pvp! Heaven forbid! You only have another 20 abilities to choose from! Or, perhaps you mean your heroic moment? The nerve of BW, having a few abilities meant for pve only- I guess that's enough to prove they love healers most then! Because I sure can see the connection there. No, you've definitely proven it- I look back on that discussion we had about those couple abilities that don't work in pvp, and how I said 'yeah those don't exist and I won't acknowledge them because it proves clearly that healers are OP' and you showed some factual evidence to prove that those few abilities not being in pvp made the difference and-

 

Oh, nope, wait, that discussion never happened, you never brought it up before and we never pretended they didn't exist- just another moment in prof arguing greatness!!

 

 

Y'know what prof, if it really grinds your gears that much- I'll gladly sign a petition for you to make it so those abilities can be used in pvp, and the healing bonus from gear be removed, as well as that pesky trauma penalty of 30% which we clever healers have actually been using to get 115% healing through leet hax, and even your dreaded 30% bonus to damage in pvp- which of course is a base bonus because that makes sense to one person in this forum. No expertise penalty, no trauma penalty, no abilities left out. Because having 15% of my healing reduced even in the best gear, being interrupted, stunned, leaped on, interrupted again, trauma debuffed again, perma snared, nothing but instant attacks laid on me just isn't enough to stop the healing machine from launching unstoppable healing goodness.

 

 

Come to think of it- why doesn't my force speed improve with gear? I mean, in full WH I should be running for 5 seconds at mach 3. Why doesn't my 4 second stun last 9 seconds? Why doesn't energy shield give 45% mitigation for BHs?

 

It's almost like abilties with set values that aren't damage or healing don't scale.

 

By george professor, look at this new discovery we've just made! This'll break ground in the annuls of SWTOR nerf/buff history I wager! Off to tell the BW high council of our findings!

Edited June 24, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Stratoforce]

Healers are fine.

 

No, DPS does not need a way to reduce healing to 10-0%. They just need to get better at the game.

[ProfessorWalsh]

He can't be playing the game as it launched, because then this statement:

 

wouldn't make sense. The Trauma debuff was added post-release, so yes Walsh, we did in fact have 100% (actual 100%, not "ProffesorWalsh's 70-is-actually-100%") healing to begin with.

 

Anyway, moving on:

 

Yes PicthShemet, that's exactly what happens. Standing on fleet you do 100% healing based purely on stats/gear. The instant you enter combat in a PvP zone, a debuff called Trauma is applied by the game that reduces healing by 30%.

 

Dude I was in the game in beta and I was in the game on the second day of pre-release.

[ProfessorWalsh]

By george professor, look at this new discovery we've just made! This'll break ground in the annuls of SWTOR nerf/buff history I wager! Off to tell the BW high council of our findings!

 

Yeah. You twist and you twist.

 

You'll do anything to protect your precious healer class. Remember how you posted a million times to try to get Sentinels nerfed? The fact is you couldn't play your healer well enough to cut the mustard and there is an issue with Trauma not working (as well as it should) and now you are afraid you'll have more difficulty.

 

Trauma (specifically pointing to the Sentinel/Marauder/Sniper/Gunslinger version) should either scale with gear or stack with each other. Period. Of course you don't want that because you want healers to be overpowered.

 

Of course, your answer to this is:

"If you run a premade have everyone jump the same healer."

 

And you are right, in a premade it is easy to get 3-4 people to jump a single Healer. But this game isn't all about premades. There is this thing, maybe you have heard about it, called the Solo Queue. Good luck trying to get that kind of coordination out of a pure PUG fast enough to have it work.

Edited June 24, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[fungihoujo]

Oh boy, he keeps going and going and going.... Edited June 24, 2012 by fungihoujo

[fungihoujo]

Yeah. You twist and you twist.

 

You'll do anything to protect your precious healer class. Remember how you posted a million times to try to get Sentinels nerfed? The fact is you couldn't play your healer well enough to cut the mustard and there is an issue with Trauma not working (as well as it should) and now you are afraid you'll have more difficulty.

 

Trauma (specifically pointing to the Sentinel/Marauder/Sniper/Gunslinger version) should either scale with gear or stack with each other. Period. Of course you don't want that because you want healers to be overpowered.

 

Of course, your answer to this is:

"If you run a premade have everyone jump the same healer."

 

And you are right, in a premade it is easy to get 3-4 people to jump a single Healer. But this game isn't all about premades. There is this thing, maybe you have heard about it, called the Solo Queue. Good luck trying to get that kind of coordination out of a pure PUG fast enough to have it work.

 

Good luck getting a tank to guard and taunt for a healer in the solo queue- it's far, far less common than having 4 dps hop on you the moment you start healing- you'd know if you ever played a healer.

 

And actually no, I don't recall posting a millions times trying to get sentinels nerfed. I recall posting a couple dozen times where I stated the abilities of sentinels, the step by step comparisons, and where I pointed out numerous times those quaint little 'how to beat a marauder guides' always leave out half of a marauder's abilities, ask for numerous CC that no class can actually muster, and generally end up being guides on how to 'escape dying for a while' rather than actually winning- not to mention how no other class even needs a guide to beat them- because guides are for two things- pve bosses, and marauders.

 

And no, trauma debuff shouldn't scale- why should it scale exactly? It's meant to be 20% off your healing- if you use that on a target who heals themselves for 3k, it takes off less total healing that it does on a target who heals for 6k. That's as intended.

 

I also guarantee you 100% that regardless of any trouble I may or may not have with sentinels- I can not only outheal the damage you do, but as a healer I could even kill you- because you are absolutely atrocious. Perhaps you'd like me to write a guide for you on how to kill healers, since you have such an issue with a task other marauders are finding insanely easy?

 

In a 4v4 with healers versus DPS why should the dps in that be the ones guaranteed victory? Your only answer is 'because I play a DPS', when the reality is- both sides should have the tools to make it equal.

 

As for what I've said about 'healers being too weak', that is also untrue. I have said that operative healers are stronger than merc and sorc healers- admittedly that is opinion, but, it is very widely held opinion. I've said that sorc healers have very little CC, no defensive CDs- that is fact. I've said that the better pvp spec is not even a healing spec, but a hybrid since the 20 points in lightning add both CC/survivability, and give a regeneration method that isn't terrible- that's fact.

 

I've also said that sorc healing has decreased since 1.2- that is a fact. Losing double bending, even if a bug, means a loss in healing. Losing 1.5 second DIs is a loss in burst, and makes DI easier to interrupt- that's a fact, it's easier to interrupt a 1.5 second ability than a 2.5 second ability. Also, always losing 11% of your max health to regenerate 8% of your resource is a nerf compared to having a proc where you lose nothing to gain 8% of your resource- that is a fact.

 

 

I am stating facts- your problem is that when I state facts, they suggest that one class has deficiencies because that is what the facts support. I cannot be blamed for the facts supporting that, in your opinion, your class needs a nerf. And I cannot be blamed if the facts I post, in your opinion, seem to mean my class needs a buff. But you've drawn those conclusions on your own.

 

Then, you proceed to regularly post incorrect information, rather nonstop about it- it's not even a once in a while thing, every thread you're posting something incorrect, and when anyone brings it up you refuse to relent.

 

Also, you seem to forget I have a PT and marauder at max level too- I am not overly afraid of them nerfing healers again, I wouldn't be surprised either- BW doesn't make good pvp decisions after all. Before 1.2 I didn't go corruption often- I was a dps sorc. If they nerf healers, I'll respec, or, if all specs are poor, I'll play my pyro PT and my anni marauder- though, as is, I'm already mostly playing my mara, why not play the best class in the game after all.

 

Remember- you're the one in this thread who's whining for nerfs and saying 'I can't cut it, make it easy for me!', you could at least have the sense to post the correct understanding of the mechanics.

Edited June 24, 2012 by fungihoujo

[matslarson]

Dude I was in the game in beta and I was in the game on the second day of pre-release.

 

And you still haven't figured out how to kill a healer? Anyway, I think you missed an earlier bit of the conversation. Probably while you were busy ignoring dissenting opinions.

[AlyxDinas]

Dude I was in the game in beta and I was in the game on the second day of pre-release.

 

Beta and first day. Do I get a prize? Do I win? Is that what this is about?

 

I think you missed his point. The 30% WZ trauma was a post launch addition. It's pretty fair game to bring it up when you say that "Healers never had that 30% to begin with.." because your statement is not correct. So not only have you shown a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanic you are talking about when you said that, to all intents and purposes, the debuff didn't exist (It does.) and completely misspoke when you said that it's effects can be mitigated (It can't be. The base debuff and the debuff from a trauma inducing skill are always 30% and 20% respectively.), you've now misspoken when you claim that healers never originally have their real, uninhibited 100% healing in warzones.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to speak with facts that are actual facts.

Edited June 24, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Daiyukie]

I like you guys. Think Walshie is actually ignoring me?

[Sookster]

I kill healers with my pyro merc (take note that merc has no interrupt).

[fungihoujo]

I kill healers with my pyro merc (take note that merc has no interrupt).

 

Sounds like lies and slander sir.

 

Healers are unkillable, their 115% healing bonus makes it so.

[JMCH]

Interesting to see this thread as I recently played a Civil War WZ along with 4 other healers...

 

We won, but we shouldn't have.

 

We were 4 out of the 5 healers on one of the turrets, healing and dealing damage for almost half the WZ duration, during that time, even with 6 enemies we VERY rarely had more than one on each one of us.

 

Seriously, 6vs6 in like a 10mx10m square and no one attacks an already attacked target? Sure, we healed ourselves quite well and only suffered some deaths, but we shouldn't have suffered any with such a bad teamplay, in fact we should have been declared winners from the start.

 

Too much players underestimate the power of AoE damage, too, so that I frequently end up quite high on DPS with my heal merc, not by "farming DPS medals" but by not farming healing medals (which would require me to blaster-heal almost full hp allies and such instead of doing damage, which incidentally are almost all AoE skills).

[Daiyukie]

Interesting to see this thread as I recently played a Civil War WZ along with 4 other healers...

 

We won, but we shouldn't have.

 

We were 4 out of the 5 healers on one of the turrets, healing and dealing damage for almost half the WZ duration, during that time, even with 6 enemies we VERY rarely had more than one on each one of us.

 

Seriously, 6vs6 in like a 10mx10m square and no one attacks an already attacked target? Sure, we healed ourselves quite well and only suffered some deaths, but we shouldn't have suffered any with such a bad teamplay, in fact we should have been declared winners from the start.

 

Too much players underestimate the power of AoE damage, too, so that I frequently end up quite high on DPS with my heal merc, not by "farming DPS medals" but by not farming healing medals (which would require me to blaster-heal almost full hp allies and such instead of doing damage, which incidentally are almost all AoE skills).

 

If you're not using Death From Above on an objective zerg, you're doing it wrong for sure.

[spaace]

Sounds like lies and slander sir.

 

Healers are unkillable, their 115% healing bonus makes it so.

 

 

115%?

 

Holy ****! I'd LOVE to have that much bonus healing. Maybe I'll be able to keep up to PT or Marauder burst now.

 

still 15% shy of what they do, but I'll take it!

 

 

 

Also, I seen somewhere "I was in beta and second day" just shows the "talent" people have... and we wonder why queues of 8 people get SO HORRENDOUS.

[JMCH]

If you're not using Death From Above on an objective zerg, you're doing it wrong for sure.

Not only this one, there are 2 other quite painfull too and the infamous blaster sweep.

 

Playing mostly PU, I learnt to play as an hybrid class, and while I'm not so frequently above 400k healing as others, the balance is generally more than offset with damage done, ignoring real objectives I contributed to by doing so.

 

Operative is quite different to play and, while I know it's more efficient, I dont like this playstyle. Same for sorc, which should have its grap nerfed btw (doesn't take resolve into account).

[matslarson]

Operative is quite different to play and, while I know it's more efficient, I dont like this playstyle. Same for sorc, which should have its grap nerfed btw (doesn't take resolve into account).

Assuming you meant "grab" more commonly known as a root:

None of the roots in the game operate on the resolve system. There's no reason whatsoever to single out the sorc root when many other classes have a similar skill, and the sniper's leg shot probably the strongest.

 

Also the thread is about healing and as the root is the top tier skill in the madness tree, it is unavailable to healing sorcs.

 

Unless you're talking about Rescue/Extrication, which is a skill usable only on friendly targets, and therefore shouldn't take resolve into account.

Edited June 24, 2012 by matslarson

[Smashbrother]

Yeah. You twist and you twist.

 

You'll do anything to protect your precious healer class. Remember how you posted a million times to try to get Sentinels nerfed? The fact is you couldn't play your healer well enough to cut the mustard and there is an issue with Trauma not working (as well as it should) and now you are afraid you'll have more difficulty.

 

Trauma (specifically pointing to the Sentinel/Marauder/Sniper/Gunslinger version) should either scale with gear or stack with each other. Period. Of course you don't want that because you want healers to be overpowered.

 

Of course, your answer to this is:

"If you run a premade have everyone jump the same healer."

 

And you are right, in a premade it is easy to get 3-4 people to jump a single Healer. But this game isn't all about premades. There is this thing, maybe you have heard about it, called the Solo Queue. Good luck trying to get that kind of coordination out of a pure PUG fast enough to have it work.

 

BW never balances this game around solo Q, and they never will. Why? Because solo queue DOES NOT MATTER. Just like 1v1s don't matter when it comes to balance.

 

Also, you don't need a premade to have people jump one healer. It's called marking a healer with a symbol and saying in chat, "Hey guys attack the guy with a target icon first."

[matslarson]

Also, you don't need a premade to have people jump one healer. It's called marking a healer with a symbol and saying in chat, "Hey guys attack the guy with a target icon first."

 

I honestly don't think Walshie knows about the target markers.

 

 

 

Shhhh....don't tell him.

Edited June 24, 2012 by matslarson

[Helig]

Sentinels need a buff. We are robbed of several of our abilities in PVP. Some of our abilities cannot be used at all in fact. We have entire powers that are totally denied to us in PVP.

 

Eh... Powers like what? Pommel Strike?

 

Also, if you said "Combat Sentinels need a buff against healers", then I'd see where you're coming from. But you're saying that Sentinels need a buff overall. My Annihilation (often switching to Rage for the giggles) Marauder disagrees.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I honestly don't think Walshie knows about the target markers.

 

 

 

Shhhh....don't tell him.

 

That is all fine and dandy and does work when there is 1, maybe 2, healers. When you get to 3 and 4 the problem is getting a non-premade team to listen about which one to go after.

 

By the by, keep trying to use backhanded insults and one day they might actually work.

Edited June 24, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh