Why Bounty Hunters are not viable in 1.2/1.3

[Epiphany-Rising]

This is a personal opinion based on over 5 months with a level 50 Bounty Hunter.

 

I've had a 50 BH Merc within weeks of the game starting and used to love the class.

 

I almost don't play it anymore.

 

Here are my reasons. Many of these have been echoed by others. In my last few days of game play before major surgery I just felt it important to note some of this down. I hope the people in Development get the message eventually as they just don't seem to be getting it so far.

 

#1: Inequality of AOE:

Bounty Hunters have the lowest radius AOE with the biggest problem with it. Knock back frequently knocks anything out of range of every additional hit if they were near the periphery of the AOE making it, effectively, useless in the case of Death From Above. Fusion Missile takes too long and costs too much (compared to Orbital Strike / Force Storm). Explosive Dart doesn't do enough damage.

 

For equality all AOE DPS should be:

Same size effected

Same base damage

Same cast time

Same interrupt status (Orb Strike, once cast can't be interrupted, Force Storm and DFA can be)

Same effect on standard and low level toons (Knock down, not back, equivalent of Stun)

Same cooldown

 

Explanation: Force Storm can be spammed pretty much forever at virtually zero cost to Sorcs. Give all AOE that ability or limit Force Storm. Give ALL AOE the same cooldown. Size wise give all AOE the same radius. Base Damage, give ALL AOE the same base damage (modified as appropriate by AIM/Tech/Power for us) so that all classes are on equal footing. Have the AOE duration be the same in all cases and have all AOE either be or not be uninterrupted (aka make it channeled or not, one way or the other for all). Just as other classes have low end AOE with limited targets effected we have explosive dart (Chain Lightning, Toxic Dart, etc.). Fusion missile takes too long to cast, has limited return, costs too much heat and effects limited targets compared to other choices. Either remove it or fix it so that it's comparable to other classes abilities (IA have more than one low level ability for example).

 

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

Give us one. All other classes have it, we don't.

 

#3: Long fight viability:

Great strides have been made here to make us useful in a longer fight however more work needs to be done. My Sorcerer NEVER goes even remotely near out of force. Rarely goes below 85% and normally ends a fight at or near 100% even though I do a ton of damage (more than my Campaign/Black Hole geared Merc even though I'm mostly Rakata with a couple of Black Hole and Columi items on the Sorc, mostly because there is zero downtime as I never run out of resources).

 

#4: Respect:

It's almost like the Bounty Hunter story was an inconvenient afterthought. Like the class was created just so there would be four base classes not three. Compared to the IA storyline (and the Sorc and so far Warrior story line) ours pretty much blows. The IA Storyline is amazing in comparison. While our Damage was great pre 1.2 we were mostly just spamming Tracer a lot. Yes, rotation has improved but again it's like trying to kiss an amputation to make it better.

 

Everything I've seen in 1.3 does not address most of this with the exception of #3 above somewhat.

 

Healing:

Merc healing is a joke. Everything costs too much heat wise (other than rapid shot with the support canister freebie) or has too limited a return so it's next to impossible to heal an operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much. We are a tech class like IA ops so make us the equivalent of IA ops in healing because right now, we're nowhere close. Again, inconvenient afterthought. and total lack of respect.

 

Tanking:

As has been mentioned before other classes can leap or rush to a target. We can't. Other classes can both leap and pull, we can pull "sometimes". With 1.3 Powertech tanks will probably be very popular for many reasons but there are still many opportunities for improvement here.

 

It is my hope again that these comments both resonate with my fellow bounty hunters and inspire some changes from Bioware.

 

As always comments and opinions are welcome.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Epiphany-Rising

[Huggsnotdruggs]

I couldn't disagree with you more. You want all classes to have the same everything? Your comments do not resonate with this trooper and I truly feel that if other class abilities are SOO appealing to you and you feel so gimped with our amazin capabilities.. just roll a sorc/sage nuff said take care Edited June 13, 2012 by Huggsnotdruggs

[Epiphany-Rising]

You misunderstand. Each class needs to bring it's own unique flavour (and I'm Canadian, we spell it that way) to the mix.

 

What I am saying is that some "iconic" abilities need to be equivalent to address balance issues.

 

AOE in particular and interrupts are the two biggies on the DPS side. In a long fight (aka Kep in EC) we're great for awhile and even with good heat management I still find that I'm about 20 seconds short frequently where I'm using Rapid shot, the occasional Tracer to refresh heat signatures with a free rail shot and that's about it until I can Vent again.

 

The game is just too unbalanced in some areas for my taste right now. Compared to many other classes Bounty Hunters are now like second class citizens in many runs.

[Huggsnotdruggs]

I did come off a little agressive so I apologize for that but still, I do not agree with you. I couldnt be more satisfied with my tool box But if they came along and made improvements that you see fit, I wouldnt complain then either

[cortea]

For equality all AOE DPS should be:

Same

 

No. Every class should not be the same. That's the problem wow had for a while, they tried to make everything too similar in response to complaints just like yours. Accept there are differences.

 

And your AOE is better than operatives for short bursts due to the instant activation. It takes 6 seconds for the first tick of orbital strike to hit, and then two more ticks 3 seconds apart each. It hits hard, but it also has weakness which gets in the way in some operation encounters.

 

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

Give us one. All other classes have it, we don't.

 

Sure. Give up your knockback though. Operatives get the interrupt, but no knockback. Or you could give up your in combat cc (operatives don't get one). Or you could give up your heavy armor which no other ranged has, and even melee don't have it. or give up your target debuff. Get the idea? You have some stuff, other people have some different stuff.

 

#3: Long fight viability:

I didn't understand your point. Merc are balanced around sitting at optimal heat, giving you infinite longevity.

 

Healing: operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much.

 

Er. I have no trouble healing hard mode ops on my alt BH healer. And there is no time limit on your healing. The heat management is the same as with dps, you need to stay in your sweet spot. While you can sometimes go into heat debt, doing so is a bad idea if you don't have a cooldown up to get out of it. BH aren't great aoe healers, or multi-target healers, but your aoe heal does boost other healers aoe healing, which is a fun synergy.

 

To me mercs, dps mercs at least, just need a small dps boost and fixes to arpen. The rest is working quite fine. I know people complain in pvp but I don't see it. Tho i heal in pvp (and love it, being almost invincible with a guard on me and uninterrupts on shields is simply amazing after playing an operative).

Edited June 13, 2012 by cortea

[Pestulan]

Sure. Give up your knockback though. Operatives get the interrupt, but no knockback. Or you could give up your in combat cc (operatives don't get one). Or you could give up your heavy armor which no other ranged has, and even melee don't have it. or give up your target debuff. Get the idea? You have some stuff, other people have some different stuff.

 

Snipers have both. The problem is that (non-healing) Ops and Mercs are both a bit underwhelming.

[BobaFaceroll]

Tanking:

As has been mentioned before other classes can leap or rush to a target. We can't. Other classes can both leap and pull, we can pull "sometimes". With 1.3 Powertech tanks will probably be very popular for many reasons but there are still many opportunities for improvement here.

 

It is my hope again that these comments both resonate with my fellow bounty hunters and inspire some changes from Bioware.

 

As always comments and opinions are welcome.

 

Since when can't Powertechs leap to a target? It's called Jet Charge.

 

I wouldn't complain if the cool down was shorter, but at least I have some ranged skills I can use on the move if I have to close distance the hard way.

[Splaktar]

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

Give us one. All other classes have it, we don't.

 

#4: Respect:

It's almost like the Bounty Hunter story was an inconvenient afterthought. Like the class was created just so there would be four base classes not three. Compared to the IA storyline (and the Sorc and so far Warrior story line) ours pretty much blows. The IA Storyline is amazing in comparison. While our Damage was great pre 1.2 we were mostly just spamming Tracer a lot. Yes, rotation has improved but again it's like trying to kiss an amputation to make it better.

 

Healing:

Merc healing is a joke. Everything costs too much heat wise (other than rapid shot with the support canister freebie) or has too limited a return so it's next to impossible to heal an operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much. We are a tech class like IA ops so make us the equivalent of IA ops in healing because right now, we're nowhere close. Again, inconvenient afterthought. and total lack of respect.

 

I agree that #2 is a major issue, especially for me in PVE.

 

As for saying the BH story line 'blows', I have enjoyed it a lot and I'm on my 2nd run through it (now with a lvl 27 PT). I have not enjoyed the IA storyline nearly as much at lvl 37. I've also got a lvl 22 warrior and 22 inq and neither storyline has impressed me like the BH story did.

 

I haven't healed any instances since 1.2 came out. Pre-1.2, I had healed for over a month in OPs and FPs. So I can't comment on the current state of healing much beyond the fact that the nerfs caused me to stop healing and I haven't gone back yet.

[TrooperSev]

#1: Inequality of AOE:

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

#3: Long fight viability:

#4: Respect:

Healing:

Tanking:

 

Point 1: Death from above is not the only aoe ability mercs have. If you never used sweeping blasters, shame on you. It is equivilant to force storm in terms of dmg and spammable. DFA is our hard hitting aoe and SB is our quick lighter dmg aoe. It's range is pretty decent, but not on par with storm's size. You can cast it twice and DFA once and still probably beat a full cast of Agent's Orbital Strike.

 

Point 2: I do agree with point 2. The reason Mercs didn't have an interrupt to begin with was because mercs had higher dmg output than other ranged classes. This is no longer the case. Either give us an interrupt or give us our dmg back.

 

Point 3: Not sure how you play, but I never have to worry about my heat unless I'm having to go way off my rotation. Even then, we have a get out of jail free card with the vent heat ability. The only time I have to fire rapid shots is if I'm moving and Eplosive dart, HSM, RS and overrides (gives next attack instant) is on cd.

 

Point 4: I personally like the BH storyline more than my agent's. I feel badas knowing that my toon is independent, yet is able to take down high value targets and effect the entire war on planets. What else would you have the bounty hunter do besides hunt? Be a bouncer at a cantina? Also, the Inquisitor story was kinda meh. After the first act it kinda just flattens until the end.

 

Healing: Again, you must not be managing your heat wisely. Our top healer in our 8 man is a merc. I've healed a few times on my merc and I've been able to heal whatever was needed.

 

Tanking: Powertech tanks have the ability to jump to a target. Just like Kaliyo (agent's comp) they can jetpack to a target within 30 meters. Also, PT tanks have more abilities than any other tank to attack at 30 meters. My assassin tank has one ability and I have to use a second ability just to add the 20 extra meters. The only attack that I know of for juggs is the saber throw.

 

All in all, I feel you need to do more research before you post. Run with other bounty hunters. Ask them how they set up their rotations. Find out what skills/mechanics you're not taking advantage of and apply them to your merc.

 

Edit: forgot to mention that flamethrower is also an aoe. That brings mercs to a total of 3 channeled aoes, explosive dart, and fusion missle all without having to use talent points.

Edited June 14, 2012 by TrooperSev

[Macroecon]

Point 1: If you never used sweeping blasters, shame on you. It is equivilant to force storm in terms of dmg and spammable.

 

What? Those two abilities aren't even close. Sweeping Blasters takes up 33% of a Merc's resources. Force Storm takes up 20% of a Sorc's resources and it does MORE damage. The only time I ever use Sweeping Blasters in PvP is if I am on CD for DFA, Flamethrower AND Fusion Missile and I need to cover a door/turret against planters. Which is to say I might use it once in 10 PvP matches.

[RazeTheRoof]

Sweeping blasters' best use in pvp is clearing an area. Let's say a few melee are ganging up on your teammate, simply lay down sweeping blasters (assuming dfa is on CD) and watch the little roaches scatter, thus saving your friends life if but for a few fleeting moments. Edited June 14, 2012 by RazeTheRoof

[HemaOne]

I've played merc since beta (it's my main). Not viable? you couldn't be further from the truth.

[SentinelThain]

I'm not into number crunching percentages etc but my merc does just fine.He hits hard,good heals...could'nt ask for much more tbh.

[Briggs_Knightly]

#1: Inequality of AOE:

Bounty Hunters have the lowest radius AOE with the biggest problem with it. Knock back frequently knocks anything out of range of every additional hit if they were near the periphery of the AOE making it, effectively, useless in the case of Death From Above. Fusion Missile takes too long and costs too much (compared to Orbital Strike / Force Storm). Explosive Dart doesn't do enough damage.

 

I agree with much of what you say...

Explosive Dart needs to be single target so it can be used without waking nearby enemies.

--- ED has lower heat than MB but is more effective. TD is really not much better than ED if at all.

Missile Blast needs to have the full damage to 3 people in 5m that ED had but ticks instantly.

---There would be no knockback out of range issue, and at 25 heat, has better balance.

Death From Above needs to be moved back to 8m for Mercs... maybe left at 5m for PTs.

--- No need for Merc and PT to be exactly alike and PTs have more of a point blank play style.

Fusion Missile is fine and doesn't need any change.

 

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

Give us one. All other classes have it, we don't.

 

We do NOT need an interrupt! Not every class needs to be the same. I am happy with what we got.

 

#3: Long fight viability:

Great strides have been made here to make us useful in a longer fight however more work needs to be done. My Sorcerer NEVER goes even remotely near out of force. Rarely goes below 85% and normally ends a fight at or near 100% even though I do a ton of damage (more than my Campaign/Black Hole geared Merc even though I'm mostly Rakata with a couple of Black Hole and Columi items on the Sorc, mostly because there is zero downtime as I never run out of resources).

 

Every class needs to be a challenge to play. If your Sorc is too easy to play... It should be adjusted.

The 2 DPS classes for Merc have heat management issues but are manageable.

The Healer may need some love but I can't be sure.

 

#4: Respect:

It's almost like the Bounty Hunter story was an inconvenient afterthought. Like the class was created just so there would be four base classes not three. Compared to the IA storyline (and the Sorc and so far Warrior story line) ours pretty much blows. The IA Storyline is amazing in comparison. While our Damage was great pre 1.2 we were mostly just spamming Tracer a lot. Yes, rotation has improved but again it's like trying to kiss an amputation to make it better.

 

I'm OK with story but need more end game content (same as every class) which I believe they will get too.

 

Healing:

Merc healing is a joke. Everything costs too much heat wise (other than rapid shot with the support canister freebie) or has too limited a return so it's next to impossible to heal an operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much. We are a tech class like IA ops so make us the equivalent of IA ops in healing because right now, we're nowhere close. Again, inconvenient afterthought. and total lack of respect.

 

Agree with most here as well... Except Merc healers are very difficult to kill.

They should have their ability to heal others improved without making their self heals OP.

--- Rapid Scan heat cost should be 16 and cast time should be 2 seconds or even 1.5 seconds.

--- Kolto Shell and maybe even Kolto Missile should not be able to be cast on self (Guard is equivalent skill).

 

Tanking:

As has been mentioned before other classes can leap or rush to a target. We can't. Other classes can both leap and pull, we can pull "sometimes". With 1.3 Powertech tanks will probably be very popular for many reasons but there are still many opportunities for improvement here.

 

All PTs can pull but only 1 gets stun on pull.

All Mercs can knockback but only 1 has KB bonus.

As a Merc/Pyro, I'd like to have the stronger/extra knockback but understand class/tree differences are needed.

--- If anything, I would add a knockdown to TD on all but bosses. It has affects in PVE but no benefit in PVP.

 

It is my hope again that these comments both resonate with my fellow bounty hunters and inspire some changes from Bioware.

 

It is obvious that they are trying... I just wish they would react faster and have had things better by now.

[DakSomtaaw]

I

 

 

 

We do NOT need an interrupt! Not every class needs to be the same. I am happy with what we got.

 

 

Are you SERIOUS?

 

What are the interrupts that BH's have? Electrodart. RocketPunch(with the 100% knockback) and Jet Boost.

 

They are all interrupts that knock back or stun an enemy in place.

 

Guess what all the end game PVE bosses are.

 

"Immune to incapacitating or movement debuffs."

 

Well great. Bounty hunters are essentially worthless in ability interrupt.

 

As for healing, why gimp self healing? You could say the same of almost any other healer.

[Reenox]

You can still heal on a Merc competitively; however it’s not for the faint hearted to manage heat effectively. I have both a Merc healer and a Imperial Agent, both well geared enough to heal hard mode Denova. The simple difference between the two is you can pull peoples mistakes back a lot quicker on the Agent, regardless if you have your o crap moves on cool down. The Bounty Hunter on the other hand can sometimes be limited, thus requiring yours cool downs to be available to get you out of these situations, without heat locking yourself.

 

Don’t get me wrong I can heal on both characters and even though I prefer my Bounty Hunter, I would have to say that it is weaker in comparison to the Imperial Agent. The numbers don’t lie and multiple people have run tests, and sadly the Bounty Hunters lag behind the other healers. That does not mean you can’t do a decent job, but you just have to work harder to do so.

 

A well played Merc healer will always be viable, but will never come close in healing numbers, to a well played Sorc or Imperial Agent.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Reenox

[Azrienov]

If you never used sweeping blasters, shame on you. It is equivilant to force storm in terms of dmg and spammable. .

 

No. Hell no. The heat cost of SB makes it impossible to spam. If you spam this attack, shame on YOU. It's got it's uses, but it is NOT a spam AOE.

[Laris_Rai]

#4. I think the BH story is pretty solid. It feels good to start off as an unknown and have a lot of people looking down on you and work your way to the point where even Darths and Moffs treat you with respect.

[Bomyne]

I completely disagree. I am completely happy with my commando and merc, both in terms of PvE content and PvP.

[Smuglebunny]

For those that can play on the merc, can you tell me how you beat the "Avatar of Sel-Makor" on Voss? I abandoned my merc on Voss because after 15 tries I was not able to beat this guy. No interupt. Cant do much against him.

 

Since then I have lvled a number of toons to 50. Cant do a darn thing on the merc and I consider it a total broken class. So please if you are good at your merc, how do you beat that guy?

[Bomyne]

For those that can play on the merc, can you tell me how you beat the "Avatar of Sel-Makor" on Voss? I abandoned my merc on Voss because after 15 tries I was not able to beat this guy. No interupt. Cant do much against him.

 

Since then I have lvled a number of toons to 50. Cant do a darn thing on the merc and I consider it a total broken class. So please if you are good at your merc, how do you beat that guy?

 

Is he immune to knockbacks? Use whatever the Merc equiv of Concussion Charge is. My girlfriend and I were trying to fight her final Chapter 3 boss (She was a Shadow) on Corellia and we were always dying until we realized he wasn't immune to our knockback effects.

 

If he IS immune to knockback but not interrupt, simply get a class that has one to assist you.

[Smuglebunny]

Actualy I am able to use rocket punch, the flyback move and something else to knock him back. BUT in order to do that I have to be in melee range, and each knockback pushes him further away. He has this AOE and choke and It just seems like I cant interupt him enough to win, I use all 3 and still die. Cuz we have no range interupt. I have a feeling I may be undergeared cuz I was on a dead server and had never even done pvp on that toon. Now that its on Jedi Covenant Ill try again with better gear. That must be it, cuz it seems to be the one and only content I can beat. Its odd. Thanks for the input. Edited June 17, 2012 by Smuglebunny

[TrooperSev]

No. Hell no. The heat cost of SB makes it impossible to spam. If you spam this attack, shame on YOU. It's got it's uses, but it is NOT a spam AOE.

 

I use it at least 3 times when we're taking down a mob of adds before I even notice any heat issues. Yeah it costs 33 heat, but by the time you finish channeling your down to 18. Throw a rapid shots inbetween every cast and essentially you can spam it for quite a while. Learn how to use your skills instead of dismissing them.

[mavsynchroid]

Wow, I agree with nothing concerning the DPS part of being a merc. The aoe works just fine if you know where to aim. I take out weak mobs and adds during ops/HMs for my guild without a problem. As for heat, I never get close to running out unless I'm doing it purposefully in a race against enrage/death. I don't mean to be rude when I say this, but it seems as though you don't have enough practice with the BH merc. I shovel out burst dps like it's my jawb.

 

However, I can see how you would want interrupt, but I don't think it's a big deal. Yes, it'd be good/fair to have one, but we don't really need it, especially when so many classes, if not all others, have it.

 

I personally think the BH is a bad *** class with a lot of variety to it. Gotta love being able to cleanse 7 stacks of that poison during the boss fight in LI, and emergency healing in a pinch when your tank misses an interrupt and needs extra heals. Not to mention how much endurance we have. When buffed and stim'ed right now, i get 2046 aim and 1790 end. That's a lot of HP for a dps.

[Fallerup]

Snipers have both. The problem is that (non-healing) Ops and Mercs are both a bit underwhelming.

 

Arsenal mercs want a word with you, especially after 1.3. Where you are getting buffed through the roof.

 

We sometimes use 3 mercs and none of them do badly in HM EC, none. In fact, our raid leader is a beast with his pistols and rockets.

 

this is such Horse s**t I can't believe we are discussing this.

 

About the AoE: Bounty hunters get Death from above at lvl 16 or something yes? IA get Orbital strike at lvl 48 .. quit whining!

 

can't talk about sorcerers, have barely played one.

 

PT tanks are one of the best tanks in game for AoE threat and such. You have a pull, you have a charge, what is your problem?

 

If you ask me, it's a L2P issue.

 

 

For those that can play on the merc, can you tell me how you beat the "Avatar of Sel-Makor" on Voss? I abandoned my merc on Voss because after 15 tries I was not able to beat this guy. No interupt. Cant do much against him.

 

Since then I have lvled a number of toons to 50. Cant do a darn thing on the merc and I consider it a total broken class. So please if you are good at your merc, how do you beat that guy?

 

You aren't alone on this problem. that boss is kinda over powered and I'll be honest with you, I have 4 lvl 50 and I've soloed him once and I lvled to lvl 50 first before doing it that time. He is OP and why his damage isn't nerfed yet I have no idea.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Fallerup