Crushing Blow nerf, who else is annoyed

[Jorannas]

I am.

 

Immortal Juggernauts were already pretty low damage, but now, their strongest attack, the one that they strive to put 31 points into the immortal tree to get, is super nerfed.

 

It looks like they are making the Juggernaut into a team aoe damager, instead of strong single target attack, but still, it will suck if you are trying to solo elites or champions for endgame dailies with an immortal Juggernaut.

 

Source

Crushing Blow has been slightly altered. The ability still applies 3 stacks of armor reduction. Damage dealt by this ability has been reduced, but when the target is affected by 5 stacks of armor reduction, Crushing Blow now deals damage to up to 2 nearby enemies, spreading 3 stacks of armor reduction to those enemies and knocking down Standard and Weak targets. It does not deal damage to sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies, and continues to generate a high amount of additional threat.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Jorannas

[epicfear]

i dont need to deal absurd amounts of damage, i just need to generate a large amount of threat.

 

i dont even have it yet, so it sucks to be me

[Jorannas]

i dont need to deal absurd amounts of damage, i just need to generate a large amount of threat.

 

i dont even have it yet, so it sucks to be me

 

That is true in group PvE, since we are tanks after all, but when I'm running around doing single player missions, I really need some strong hits like crushing blow to make combat advance at a decent place.

 

Again, it's just annoying, not a total game breaker.

[beyondkilling]

it hits 2 targets not a nerf...

[coldserpent]

it hits 2 targets not a nerf...

 

That's only if the primary target has 5 stacks of Sunder on it, and ONLY if nothing is incapacitated, lifted, or sleeping, according to the patch note wording. I'd have to see how much the damage is reduced as well.

[Sookster]

Tanks will be merely unplayable when solo questing, especially dailies, I may as well do dailies on my healer or dps and send the cash over to my tank that pays for repairs in operations. Right now I do fine on my tank powertech with dailies, but even they're getting a damage nerf and my companion will have to dish all the damage, which isn't a viable choice when doing heroics (need Mako out).

 

I retired my jugg from tanking and it's now permanently vengeance.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Sookster

[Erevan_Kindelar]

I have not seen the base damage stats for Crushing Blow on a before vs after comparison, but as far as I know before this change, it was purely a single-target attack, with a target that has 5 Sunder debuffs stacked receiving weapon damage.

To me, it seems that the "weapon damage" component is applied to up to 3 targets, allowing for stunned/sleeping mobs being excluded.

 

I could be wrong, mind

[Ryemfoh]

That's only if the primary target has 5 stacks of Sunder on it, and ONLY if nothing is incapacitated, lifted, or sleeping, according to the patch note wording. I'd have to see how much the damage is reduced as well.

 

Unleashed has been replaced by Crushing Fist, which causes Smash to apply 2 stacks of armor reduction per point to all affected targets.

 

Charge + Smash = 4 stacks applied to all targets ... Getting 5 stacks on any target should be trivial with these changes.

[T-Roach]

I am too. But it's not just crushing blow I'm concerned about.. I mean, Single Saber Mastery will no longer give the 6% damage increase to all melee attacks (While in Soresu).. That alone is a pretty big hit considering Immortal spec tanks aren't HIGH DPS (nor should they be)... But when you add in the damage nerfs to Backhand AND crushing blow, that just seems like a lot to me.

 

Now don't get me wrong...I play tank spec because I enjoy the protection aspect of it, and would always prefer survivability and threat over damage. However, the reduction of 2 DPS abilities and the complete elimination of 1 of them seems like too big of a hit…and I'm a little concerned about it. Obviously, this change is coming along to aid us in PVE, but what about jugg tanks that like to PVP as well?? I mean, have you ever tried to go against a DPS sorc who's wearing his bubble armor??? By the time you break through that wacky 3000-4000k HP shield, you're already half dead thanks to the ridiculous amount of bleeds they've so graciously bestowed upon you.. Then, if you're somehow able make up the ground once that wacky shield is down, you're happy to find that those little bleeds have actually been healing them by small amounts whenever they crit.. Awesome right? It's already almost impossible to take them out with the damage we have.. Now try doing that with a nerf bat…

 

Look, I'm not arguing for more DPS. I'm just saying that the nerfs are definitely annoying and I'm concerned that they're going to be too difficult to overcome in PVP..

[Veeius]

i dont need to deal absurd amounts of damage, i just need to generate a large amount of threat.

 

i dont even have it yet, so it sucks to be me

 

Good thing you NEVER EVER EVER want to pvp. Particularly since they're also cutting the legs out from rage.

[lordofdamornin]

I have not been a fan of this change since the PTS notes first became available.

 

All they had to do was increase the Threat on Smash and Sweeping Slash while in Soresu, and the bads would be able to have easy AE Threat. That's it.

 

This change is attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone, and I just don't think the Immortal PvP damage bird needed to be killed in the first place.

 

Riôt

[T-Roach]

I have not been a fan of this change since the PTS notes first became available.

 

All they had to do was increase the Threat on Smash and Sweeping Slash while in Soresu, and the bads would be able to have easy AE Threat. That's it.

 

This change is attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone, and I just don't think the Immortal PvP damage bird needed to be killed in the first place.

 

Riôt

 

I agree 100%. I never had a problem holding threat... Yeah, there are times when trash mobs leading up to ops bosses can get a little difficult manage, but it isn't so much of a problem that I am willing to trade my PVP success for an easier time at it...

 

I'm worried they took too much damage away from us juggs that like to go 31 points in immortal... And considering we were never high on the damage charts to begin with, I'm worried that immortal PVP tanking is now effectivly dead.

[Teraskas]

/Facepalm.

 

These nerfs are completely uncalled for.

Does the Dev team even PLAY Juggernaut ?

Oh wait, they're all Marauder. xD

Edited June 15, 2012 by Teraskas

[Jayshames]

I agree juggernauts tank specced aren't meant to be huge damage dealers, but you'd expect them to have atleast some damage, i've been complaining about how VERY little damage I get in PvP, and now to find these nerfs is just horrible. They could've atleast lowered the CD on backhand

[BrianDavion]

the nerfs are aweful, sure we have the aoe thing but I'd rather not have to apply armor debuff stacks to get an AOE it just seems clumsy and counter intuitative for some reason

[Sonovsam]

OMG, have any of you actually looked at a damage parse while in tank spec and tank gear?

 

Here is the top 4 damaging abilities from Toth/Zorn:

Name 	Count 	Total 	DPS 	Avg 	Avg threat 	TPS 	Crit
Ravage 	22 	25819 	101 	1174 	1761 	152 	23%
Sundering Assault 	31 	20515 	80 	662 	993 	121 	19%
Crushing Blow 	11 	19944 	78 	1813 	4080 	176 	36%
Force Scream 	16 	17985 	71 	1124 	1686 	106 	31%

 

It's not that big a deal and it gives us more AoE threat which is what tanks are for. All you Chicken Little's need to dry your tears and stop with the whining routine.

[lordofdamornin]

OMG, have any of you actually looked at a damage parse while in tank spec and tank gear?

 

Here is the top 4 damaging abilities from Toth/Zorn:

Name 	Count 	Total 	DPS 	Avg 	Avg threat 	TPS 	Crit
Ravage 	22 	25819 	101 	1174 	1761 	152 	23%
Sundering Assault 	31 	20515 	80 	662 	993 	121 	19%
Crushing Blow 	11 	19944 	78 	1813 	4080 	176 	36%
Force Scream 	16 	17985 	71 	1124 	1686 	106 	31%

 

It's not that big a deal and it gives us more AoE threat which is what tanks are for. All you Chicken Little's need to dry your tears and stop with the whining routine.

 

Actually, I believe it is a big deal.

 

While there is always a chance that my numbers are wrong, what I am currently getting is that for you, this change will be a ~10% damage nerf.

 

Not counting the nerf to Single Saber Mastery.

 

Riôt

Edited June 17, 2012 by lordofdamornin

[Elyx]

OMG, have any of you actually looked at a damage parse while in tank spec and tank gear?

 

Here is the top 4 damaging abilities from Toth/Zorn:

Name 	Count 	Total 	DPS 	Avg 	Avg threat 	TPS 	Crit
Ravage 	22 	25819 	101 	1174 	1761 	152 	23%
Sundering Assault 	31 	20515 	80 	662 	993 	121 	19%
Crushing Blow 	11 	19944 	78 	1813 	4080 	176 	36%
Force Scream 	16 	17985 	71 	1124 	1686 	106 	31%

 

It's not that big a deal and it gives us more AoE threat which is what tanks are for. All you Chicken Little's need to dry your tears and stop with the whining routine.

 

I've seen quite a few parses. that one unfortunately doesn't show the pre-nerf numbers, so there's not way to compare. And our threat was fine before this. Like daemon said...a buff to our AoE attacks ALREADY IN PLACE would have been fine.

 

And for the record, I don't think they're killing my class. And I will state for the record that after the patch, we'll still be able to hold threat...just like we do now. But there is absolutely no reason or justification to reducing the damage. Let me ask you a question. Why in the world should it be Okay for them to cut back on our damage (that is probably the lowest in the game, bar none), just because our threat is good? are you okay with them taking away our heavy armor, as long as they buff our armor rating? are you okay with them taking away our lightsabers, as long as we can still hit things and generate threat? At what point do you say, "please stop playing with my class, I liked it as it was"?

 

If you can give me any viable reason in game, through either threads or parses or posts or dev blogs, that shows that our damage needed reduction, I may agree with you. it's the sheer ludicrousness of the whole thing.

 

When playing solo right now, I am about equal with my immortal spec vs. my vengeance spec. Veng is a bit faster, but they about equal depending on my companions gear (Jessa is pretty well equipped atm). After the patch, Immortal will not be fast enough solo for me to want to play it. I'll be respeccing every time after guild runs back to Vengeance. the Average total loss is around 20% (given the various parses I've seen). that's a hefty chunk of our DPS, and its a big quality of life issue for solo play. When you combine that with the complete lack of reason to DO it, and you can see why many people, even the serious players, are baffled (and a bit irritated) by this change.

 

Why not just buff 2 skills we already have? why was it necessary to adjust so much when a simple buff of 10-20% threat on 2 skills would have done the job?

 

Edit: correction on damage. the 20-30% numbers I've seen are the additive total loss of all the changes, not the actual loss overall to our DPS. thats probably close to 8-10% overall. Still a big number. and still not justified

Edited June 19, 2012 by Elyx

[Midden]

Someone testing on a training dummy on the PTS has shown that the Immortal Jugg in similar gear does 21% less DPS in 1.3 when compared to a BH tank. 570DPS vs 690DPS. This is very significant if you don't want the team to hit enrage timers. Juggs were less in 1.2 but now a lot worse off, got to figure there is method in the madness somewhere.

[lordofdamornin]

I mentioned this in another thread, but if these changes are in preparation for the new abilities coming with Makeb, I'd prefer they wait until then to make them.

 

That's the only sense I can make out of this.

 

Riôt

[Ryemfoh]

Does anyone have the numbers for the "now deals damage to up to 2 nearby enemies"? I'm actually looking forward to this change because I think it will make solo'ing and PVP better (damages multiple targets and spreads armour debuff so there's no setup time when target switching).

 

Sure on FP / Ops bosses a DPS nerf, but I'm not in the group to DPS anyway - and the trash pulls will be much smoother.

[BanetheDarkLord]

Someone testing on a training dummy on the PTS has shown that the Immortal Jugg in similar gear does 21% less DPS in 1.3 when compared to a BH tank. 570DPS vs 690DPS. This is very significant if you don't want the team to hit enrage timers. Juggs were less in 1.2 but now a lot worse off, got to figure there is method in the madness somewhere.

 

The method I see in this is to give the Juggs more debuffs to armor via the new talent that gives Smash 2 stacks on all affected targets per point in talent. Now if that means less sundering assault just to keep our armor debuff on our target, that helps. Another attack that causes this keeps the debuff up without always having to using only sundering assault and crushing blow. Now that does lower in immediate DPS, but it does buff up the DPS of the group because of the constant armor debuff to the boss.

 

Overall, it's still a "wait and see" thing at this point.

Edited June 22, 2012 by BanetheDarkLord

[Mawduce]

The method I see in this is to give the Juggs more debuffs to armor via the new talent that gives Smash 2 stacks on all affected targets per point in talent. Now if that means less sundering assault just to keep our armor debuff on our target, that helps. Another attack that causes this keeps the debuff up without always having to using only sundering assault and crushing blow. Now that does lower in immediate DPS, but it does buff up the DPS of the group because of the constant armor debuff to the boss.

 

Overall, it's still a "wait and see" thing at this point.

 

this is all well and good if debuffs still stacked in 1.3. However, this is not true.

[DarthJopeous]

There is never no need for nerfs. Nerfs take away from the original aspect of a class. Just balance out what other classes are missing period.

 

I know Juggs are not meant to do major damage but to nerf one of their highest damage abilities is dumb period.

 

SI are supposed to be highest damage, they were made to do that. Tanks were made to survive and keeps enemies off their allies. But we should have some abilities when we solo our storylines.

[darwinschainsaw]

Tanks were made to survive and keeps enemies off their allies. But we should have some abilities when we solo our storylines.

 

Now we can solo better and faster. With a talent letting smash stack sunder also, it'll be cake to get 5 stacks and get your crushing blow hitting 3 people. This is not a nerf to soloing, this is a buff. As long as you have 3 or more mobs around you, which you very often will, you'll be dealing more damage than you were before.