SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Range > Defensive CD's. ^^ Yes, kiting works. As does utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVoidStalker Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Weaponmaster 2 set bonus: Decreases the cooldown of Undying Rage by 15 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 You missed the one where you heal for rage consumed which can be used while stunned. True enough, but can be argued that annihilation/watchman specced marauders also have self-healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Weaponmaster 2 set bonus: Decreases the cooldown of Undying Rage by 15 seconds. Which drops UR cooldown to 75s for annihilation/carnage marauders and 45s for rage marauders (funny how noone complains about rage marauders having too much survivability via UR despite the shortened cooldown - only annihilation). Edited June 11, 2012 by SinnedWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTPRO Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 Which drops UR cooldown to 75s for annihilation/carnage marauders and 45s for rage marauders (funny how noone complains about rage marauders having too much survivability via UR despite the shortened cooldown - only annihilation). Rage marauders also have passive 7% damage reduction (kinetic, energy, elemental and internal - 3% from shii-cho, 2% from defensive forms talent and 2% from undying talent). Anyway as I pointed out in first post, I created this thread to remove certain misinformation I see present in most marauder/sentinel threads. No judgment on them being op or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Rage marauders also have passive 7% damage reduction (kinetic, energy, elemental and internal - 3% from shii-cho, 2% from defensive forms talent and 2% from undying talent). Anyway as I pointed out in first post, I created this thread to remove certain misinformation I see present in most marauder/sentinel threads. No judgment on them being op or not. Correct, they're less squishy compared to carnage (even annihilation in terms of damage reduction), but when people complain about "godlike marauder survivability" - they're usually referring to annihilation specced marauders due to self-healing (which benefit the most from UR and force camo because of this). I merely found it amusing that people complain about UR as much as they do yet all agree that Rage is squishy and needs it (despite the fact that their UR cd is 45s compared to Annihilation/Carnage marauder specs' 75s). If UR is so incredibly OP'd, it'd be rage specced marauders making this blatantly obvious (yet even with the shortened cooldown, they're still considered squishy). This speaks volumes about just how effective UR actually is (due to how easy it is countered, and its predictable application due to the health sacrifice to apply it). Edited June 11, 2012 by SinnedWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethroin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Anyway as I pointed out in first post, I created this thread to remove certain misinformation I see present in most marauder/sentinel threads. No judgment on them being op or not. Usually when someone posts a bunch of facts that can be, and repeatedly have been, verified, he wants prove something. The absence of your thesis statement forces the audience to guess at what conclusion you're trying to lead them to. Posting facts is meaningless when you have no statement of what you want us to glean from those facts. We know, marauder have cooldown, and what they do, and some spec/gear options make them shorter CD, or better. So what is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johanjj Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Thats just insane, the rest of the classes dont have that much defensive abilities combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Thats just insane, the rest of the classes dont have that much defensive abilities combined. really? there are only 3 defensive cooldowns for all other 7 ACs combined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Thats just insane, the rest of the classes dont have that much defensive abilities combined. Most classes have equally as much or more (factoring taunts, innates, talents, etc. and when used appropriately - i.e. dps sorc only has bubble, but with proper usage, force slow, overload and electrocute all increase its survivability - and this is all without any talent points to obtain MORE). Also, most tank classes usually complain about their lack of activated defensives by comparison (VG/Ptech being the closest possible exception to having any real valid arguement, but they can ranged kite) - yet they all conveniently neglect to mention having 2 taunts (sure this doesn't affect them directly, but they still neglect to mention these despite the fact that someone else on their team likely has them and is also tossing them out) and other things like damage debuffs, hard stuns, and increased utility (simply because their survivability isn't attached to a number on their toolbar - instead they're attached to abilities or passive bonuses). Edited June 11, 2012 by SinnedWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTPRO Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 Usually when someone posts a bunch of facts that can be, and repeatedly have been, verified, he wants prove something. The absence of your thesis statement forces the audience to guess at what conclusion you're trying to lead them to. Posting facts is meaningless when you have no statement of what you want us to glean from those facts. We know, marauder have cooldown, and what they do, and some spec/gear options make them shorter CD, or better. So what is your point? This is exactly the reason I made this thread. There is no WE KNOW. There are some people who whine about marauder being OP, and there are some people who make posts and say marauders are completely fine. What these people have in common (most of the time) is they either exaggerate (the marauder-is-op guys) or they make the abilities sound worthless or bad (the marauder-is-fine guys) - and they do that either on purpose OR by not knowing exactly what the abilities do. I made this thread to show the ACTUAL truth and whether the person who reads my post makes a conclusion that the cooldowns are fine or they are too much was not the point of this thread. So let me repeat one more time: I collected the information regarding defensive cooldowns and simply listed them in one thread. My only intention was to clear up certain things about marauder's / sentinel's abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funick Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 This is exactly the reason I made this thread. There is no WE KNOW. There are some people who whine about marauder being OP, and there are some people who make posts and say marauders are completely fine. What these people have in common (most of the time) is they either exaggerate (the marauder-is-op guys) or they make the abilities sound worthless or bad (the marauder-is-fine guys) - and they do that either on purpose OR by not knowing exactly what the abilities do. I made this thread to show the ACTUAL truth and whether the person who reads my post makes a conclusion that the cooldowns are fine or they are too much was not the point of this thread. So let me repeat one more time: I collected the information regarding defensive cooldowns and simply listed them in one thread. My only intention was to clear up certain things about marauder's / sentinel's abilities. yeah this is sort of a basic education about maras thread, I agree that this is necessary as every single thread I read about us is full of incorrect statements about our defensive cool downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethroin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 ...There are some people who whine about marauder being OP, and there are some people who make posts and say marauders are completely fine. What these people have in common (most of the time) is they either exaggerate (the marauder-is-op guys) or they make the abilities sound worthless or bad (the marauder-is-fine guys) - and they do that either on purpose OR by not knowing exactly what the abilities do. I made this thread to show the ACTUAL truth and whether the person who reads my post makes a conclusion that the cooldowns are fine or they are too much was not the point of this thread. This is a pointless thread. People that cry for nerfs and peolpe that argue against them have no desire to read what the abilities they cite do. In fact, the lack of central claim in your original post has caused this to be exactly what you didn't want it to be, another argument on how good/bad marauder cooldowns are. Starting topics with no new info or claim, you're doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) This is exactly the reason I made this thread. There is no WE KNOW. There are some people who whine about marauder being OP, and there are some people who make posts and say marauders are completely fine. What these people have in common (most of the time) is they either exaggerate (the marauder-is-op guys) or they make the abilities sound worthless or bad (the marauder-is-fine guys) - and they do that either on purpose OR by not knowing exactly what the abilities do. I made this thread to show the ACTUAL truth and whether the person who reads my post makes a conclusion that the cooldowns are fine or they are too much was not the point of this thread. So let me repeat one more time: I collected the information regarding defensive cooldowns and simply listed them in one thread. My only intention was to clear up certain things about marauder's / sentinel's abilities. Still a bit unfair to only list mara/sent defensives (and talents) - I'd suggest compiling a broader list for every class - otherwise you will continue to see posts like "omg - they have more means of survival than every class combined!" when these people either don't play the game or only play classes that are ranged with only one active cooldown directly affecting their face-tanking survivability as turret-modes. Listing only mara/sent defensives/talents for survivability really makes this thread predisposed to being biased against them. Hell, someone might be a tankassin that doesn't fully understand his class/talents and immediately assume that marauders have more survivability than they do just by reading your list (and neglect to consider their stealth/discharge AoE accuracy debuff/Wither AoE damage debuff + slow/taunts/aoe knockback/force slow/force speed+slow+root breaks/electrocute/spike/passive talents as being tools to increase their survivability since the only defensive cooldowns they have are force shroud/deflection/force cloak). Seriously, just because something isn't on your toolbar (or happens to be a talent that attaches something to an ability that was already on your toolbar) for application, doesn't mean you aren't gaining something that helps you survive. People neglect to remember this, which is why maras/sents (which DO have the most on their toolbar) having the most activated burst-based defensive abilities tends to result in people assuming they have the most survivability - which isn't true. Edited June 11, 2012 by SinnedWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sDiesel Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Thats just insane, the rest of the classes dont have that much defensive abilities combined. every other class has more CC like hardstuns maras have snares/roots/slows and a (what i consider minor) hard stun from charge. the only real cc they have is Intimidating Roar, aoe fear, last 6secs, 1min cd that breaks on damage iirc. other classes get CC, maras get anti-CC eg, your conc missle/debilitate is equal to my force camo... least thats what BW intended...i think lol we get lost of def cds, but some are just reverse cc to compensate for you getting more cc cds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 every other class has more CC like hardstuns maras have snares/roots/slows and a (what i consider minor) hard stun from charge. the only real cc they have is Intimidating Roar, aoe fear, last 6secs, 1min cd that breaks on damage iirc. other classes get CC, maras get anti-CC eg, your conc missle/debilitate is equal to my force camo... least thats what BW intended...i think lol we get lost of def cds, but some are just reverse cc to compensate for you getting more cc cds. Force choke is 3-sec channeled stun - used rarely by carnage specced maras since it does less damage than they normally would without it - annihilation uses it on targets that have full stacks of DoT's (most effective) - rage uses it to generate shockwave stacks, not for its stun or damage, really. The only anti-CC that mara has is force camo, which ops/scounds and assassins/shadows also have (on longer cooldown with different boons/banes compared to force camo - and of course, both of these classes have additional methods to anti-cc that mara/sent doesn't via debuff removal/force speed). I can see the arguement that undying rage acts like a hard stun (on all enemies), but it doesn't - unless enemies are face-tanking you while it's up and don't bother with kiting/debuffing/cc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Just to add to the openers last sentence: In rage spec with the 4set bonus Udr has a 45 sec CD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Why would a melee class have/want a knockback? Because guard has a 15m range? To push someone out of range of a healer? To knock people off of things? As an additional interrupt? For any one of a dozen reasons? If you don't see value in a knockback then you're playing on a whole different level than the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Because guard has a 15m range? To push someone out of range of a healer? To knock people off of things? As an additional interrupt? For any one of a dozen reasons? If you don't see value in a knockback then you're playing on a whole different level than the rest of us. KB is overrated for melee class when not in Huttball. Most people tend to use it as a way to just fill up 5 guy's resolve. But that's a user error issue. It's certainly better to have the option but don't need to use it, than never having that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 KB is overrated for melee class when not in Huttball. Most people tend to use it as a way to just fill up 5 guy's resolve. But that's a user error issue. It's certainly better to have the option but don't need to use it, than never having that option. Yeah force push is so overrated in the other warzones where you have a guard/healer combo and you want to ruin that set up so you push the healer away and wreck him. Yeah overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 KB is overrated for melee class when not in Huttball. Most people tend to use it as a way to just fill up 5 guy's resolve. But that's a user error issue. It's certainly better to have the option but don't need to use it, than never having that option. Being able to position people (harpoon/pull/push) are very good. Very, very good and highly underused. A harpoon + snare/root combo is the most effective way to break a spider tank, its fast and it is easy and only requires two people to coordinate instead of the entire DPS side of the fight focusing fire. Against a guarded person it instantly drops the 50% shared damage if the person is sent in the right direction. Anyway, it's super good when used in the right hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twor Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Why would a melee class have/want a knockback? Knockbacks used in the right hands, are amazing in objetive based WZs. Someone charging from one side to the other in VS? ->KB. Someone trying to interrupt a node capture?->KB. A healer or a ranged class needs peeling? Not to mention the amazing combo in HB, kb the opponent on the top bracket to his own goalline, than charge him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinnedWill Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Yeah force push is so overrated in the other warzones where you have a guard/healer combo and you want to ruin that set up so you push the healer away and wreck him. Yeah overrated. ^^ Agreed. Very good for isolating enemies as well (particularly if you want to get a burst dps class off of someone or take a target somewhere so that you're less likely to be getting hit by multiple enemies). Also resets force charge - and since force charge has some talents that modify it depending upon spec (i.e. stun/slow/root/knockback immunity or auto-crit with smash) this heavily increases push's usefulness. Yep, push is SO OVERRATED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneXXIV Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Force Kick >Force Push>Force Kick>Awe>Kick>Force Choke. You don't see why Force Push is good against a healer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Force Kick >Force Push>Force Kick>Awe>Kick>Force Choke. You don't see why Force Push is good against a healer? yeah you know force kick has an 8 second cd, 6 talented??? so that combo right there just took like 15 seconds minimum. IDK why you're complaining when a class with better burst then mara can do the samething but they get a 4 and 2 second stun ontop of their pull that they can use right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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