True Test of PvP Skill

[Talsyrius]

For biggest proving effect, roll an Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando.

 

While you're at it, record some vids of you owning pvp with that.

 

Even better, do it in a ranked warzone.

This. If you want to prove that you are a good player by playing a bad class, then by definition you have to pick a bad class.

[criminalheretic]

No one uses multiple keys to activate one ability. That's just stupid.

 

Ok ok, mercs have TM bound to every key on their board.

 

 

 

Cast sequence macros (which are generally broken in game by the game's dev's) do what you described. Actual, helpful macros, do other things.

 

Cast Sequence macro: pressing one button, and the macro cycles through multiple abilities, each on a different gcd, with no thought from the player.

 

Other macros, for example, can turn on all 3 of my dps cool downs with the press of one button (they are all off the GCD and can be used the exact same time). That is much better than having to hit a different key for each one; this macro is not a cast sequence.

 

Another example is using a single key to do a couple different things, depending on the circumstances. For example, if you are in stealth, pressing "1" will have you open with your stealth opener. Once out of stealth though, pressing "1" again will use another ability that can't be used while out of stealth.

 

Another example: a single key can compose of different keys all in one. A macro can use the same key/ability slot for "1", "ctrl-1", "alt-1", "shift-1", ect. So you can fit 4 abilities/macros into one space.

 

These are all examples of smart, convenient game play; not automated gameplay having the computer (or macro) play for you.

 

Actually it's an example of smart, convenient game play; by having the computer (or macro) play (i.e. press buttons) for you.

[Archaar]

True test of PvP skill? is what exactly? Concealment Operative is hardly at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to PvP. In fact ANY class in the hands of someone who know's how to kite, interupt, gaurd, heal, move, los, etc... etc.. can be good. I've wrecked level 40+ players on different level 10-12 characters, not because those characters are OP it's because I don't Rambo into the middle of the group and expect everything to die like I see a lot of players do.

 

Play smart and you can turn any "bad" class into a good one.

[SwordofSodan]

I hate nut kick.

[Laksmanaya]

In fact ANY class in the hands of someone who know's how to kite, interupt, gaurd, heal, move, los, etc... etc.. can be good.

Except that there IS a class that can't do any of them... well, except 'move'.

[Humankeg]

Actually it's an example of smart, convenient game play; by having the computer (or macro) play (i.e. press buttons) for you.

 

Eh, I guess. But I am glad that game developers usually break the ability to be able to use cast sequence macro's. A player should have to think about what ability to use next, not have a script do it for them.

[Tatebomb]

You want true skill? Roflstomping PuGs with your WH premade is not skill. True skill is leading a bunch of PuG mouth breathers with crud gear to victory against said premade.

[Orangerascal]

Right, of course they are gimped So occasionally not wanting to use an ability makes them gimped every time they use that macro, right?

 

It's a tradeoff. There are time you won't want to fire every single ability you have because you're expecting a fight very soon after. For example: holding the node solo and fighting a guy you can beat with just 1 adrenal. You're not going to unload on him and be caught short on your next opponent.

 

It's called forward thinking, a skill 99% of the mmo population lacks.

 

As for good/bad players... I'll fully admit that I suck at PvP. I'm getting better, but I still suck. Not looking to make excuses for me dying though... I do that repeatedly in WZs anyways, so why try to make excuses for it?

 

What I am talking about is the ability to press one key, and have 5 powers activate having an advantage over the ability to press 5 keys to have 5 powers activate. If you can't see how that gives someone an advantage, then you are blind.

 

What you are doing is over classifying the advantage that macros give. And because you're not using them you're justifying them to be grossly overpowered (when the truth, it's quite the opposite). Having the ability to trigger the adrenals and relics individually is better for a reason I mentioned above.

 

Also, nothing is stopping you from installing software that does that same thing. Likewise nothing is stopping you from binding those 5 abilities to shift + ASDFG (like I do), and popping them all at the same time with a 4 finger smash + slide or popping my defense relic against incoming marauder (shift + d ). Stop telling people how to play the game because it's not the way you play it. Macros are for people with poor muscle memory.

 

TLDR; Quit QQing, it's embarassing.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Orangerascal

[TwitchWINs]

Is it skill or whoever spends $300 dollars on a Naga Mouse and Keyboard? I know of people how have really good reaction times due to them being able to macro abilities with their keyboard. How is that skill? I play with just a normal keyboard with very minor mouse support and find in certain situations I lack, simply because I refuse to pay 300 bucks.

 

"Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." You sir just removed all doubt...

 

You lack because you refuse to keybind...simple as that i went from playing wow disc priest having 70+ binds on just my crappy 15$ keyboard and mouse with right/left click, i have since upgraded to a Razor naga mouse but the funny thing is i only have 1 bind on it as i am already more comfortable with my keyboard binds and just as fast if not faster at using them then any naga user...this game has so little abilities right now like 40-50... 1,2,3,4,5,6,q,e,r,t,s,f,g,z,x,c,v,b,mouse wheel up/down/click in+(Shift/Ctrl/Alt) That's 63 binds right there which is WAAAAY more then enough for this game and can easy be used by anyone regardless of how much they spend on accessories, Don't blame your fail on anyone but yourself please.

Edited June 12, 2012 by TwitchWINs

[Zunayson]

It's not hard to play a concealment operative (Apparently so as I see so many people using the wrong rotation). If you want a real test of skill, make your own rotation, build, and gear yourself up without looking at any guides. The only skill in RPGs is creating your character. However, MMOs (especially these WoW remakes) fail hard at that aspect, and so it becomes an endless gear grind.

 

Otherwise, you'll be on of those former FOTM QQ'ers, or you'll be that guy I'd rather taunt who ISN'T A marauder or pyro powertech.

 

EDIT: Salishia 50, Dreshdae Cantina (Medicine only for raids)... 3k Hidden Strike crits are funnnn

Edited June 12, 2012 by Zunayson

[dazednconfuzed]

What you are doing is over classifying the advantage that macros give. And because you're not using them you're justifying them to be grossly overpowered (when the truth, it's quite the opposite). Having the ability to trigger the adrenals and relics individually is better for a reason I mentioned above.

 

I'm not really judging anything.

 

For the record, I have no idea if I have ever been macro'ed against or not; I don't care about dying in PvP, it happens; and I expect people to be better in PvP than I am... I'm still new to it all, or did you not bother reading that part of my post?

 

My entire outlook on macros in PvP does not come from personal experience (They are against the Rules of Conduct, so I wouldn't). It comes from simple logic and maths. A macro is something used to speed up your gameplay (sorry, "make it more efficient"), so you need to interact with the PC less to get a desired result. Being able to get a result from 3 key presses that takes someone else 5 key presses to do gives you a simple time advantage which allows you to do more stuff than your oppostition.

 

Also, nothing is stopping you from installing software that does that same thing. Likewise nothing is stopping you from binding those 5 abilities to shift + ASDFG (like I do), and popping them all at the same time with a 4 finger smash + slide or popping my defense relic against incoming marauder (shift + d ). Stop telling people how to play the game because it's not the way you play it. Macros are for people with poor muscle memory.

 

Poor muscle memory, sure... Are you sure it's not just because it's easier to gain a reputation for being "uberleet" or whatever it is you guys think you are these days when you don't have to worry about pressing too many buttons?

 

I think that is more likely.

 

And there is a pretty big thing that prevents me (and any other honest player out there) from installing software to create keybinds and macros... As I said in a previous post, it's against TOR's Rules of Conduct, and I don't particularly want to be banned, thanks. Hey, if you want to be banned though, just keep using all those third party tools and applications. They'll catch up with you eventually.

 

As I also said, I view keybinds and macros as different things, so simply binding a load of keys to activate certain abilities is fine, I do that too. But what I don't do is bind several abilities together which is what macro players do.

 

For example, binding 5 abilities to Shift + ASDFG is keybinding... Shift + A activates one ability. Binding Shift + A to activate all 5 abilities is a macro, and is illegal according to the Rules of Conduct.

 

So, who does that make the better player, the person who plays within the rules, and admits their faults, or the person that breaks the rules because it's easier than playing properly?

 

Finally, where did I tell anyone how to play their game? And besides, even if I had, I find it quite amusing that you pick an argument that you disapprove of to complain that I am 'telling players how to play' when there are so many other posts in this very thread from people who use macros themselves who keep saying things like 'If you don't use macros, you shouldn't be PvP'ing' and crap like that.

 

Or is that not allowed? Don't moan at the leet PvP'er club, you might hurt their feelings?

Edited June 12, 2012 by dazednconfuzed

[Orangerascal]

I'm not really judging anything.

 

For the record, I have no idea if I have ever been macro'ed against or not; I don't care about dying in PvP, it happens; and I expect people to be better in PvP than I am... I'm still new to it all, or did you not bother reading that part of my post?

 

My entire outlook on macros in PvP does not come from personal experience (They are against the Rules of Conduct, so I wouldn't). It comes from simple logic and maths. A macro is something used to speed up your gameplay (sorry, "make it more efficient"), so you need to interact with the PC less to get a desired result. Being able to get a result from 3 key presses that takes someone else 5 key presses to do gives you a simple time advantage which allows you to do more stuff than your oppostition.

 

So you're whining for the sake of whining. Do you tell women what to do with their bodies as well? How about telling parents how they should raise their own kids? If it doesn't affect you, you probably should just keep your opinion to yourself. Ever think that some of these people using macros could be disabled people and need it to play the game competently? Of course not.

 

Poor muscle memory, sure... Are you sure it's not just because it's easier to gain a reputation for being "uberleet" or whatever it is you guys think you are these days when you don't have to worry about pressing too many buttons?

 

I think that is more likely.

 

It's funny that you automatically associate macros with being a good player because they 'don't have to worry about pressing too many buttons'. Pro-tip: Playing well has little to do with your finger dexterity. If this were the case, my nine year old piano playing niece would be the best pvper in the world.

 

And there is a pretty big thing that prevents me (and any other honest player out there) from installing software to create keybinds and macros... As I said in a previous post, it's against TOR's Rules of Conduct, and I don't particularly want to be banned, thanks.

 

You could take a very (very) liberal interpretation of that part of the EULA and take it to mean keyboard emulators, but in that case gadgets like the razor naga and even your gamepad would be considered illegal. I've never heard of anyone being banned for using the naga ... have you ?

 

The EULA are targeting "hacks" like the speed hack, teleporting hacks, and even botting software, which are very very different from a piece of software that emulates keyboard strokes. Again your interpretation is different and not necessarily correct. Until a CM says otherwise, most people will assume 'keyboard emulation' are okay. If you choose to view differently then be it.

 

I'll even go as far as to tell you, bioware knows that people are using macros. This part of the EULA: "To the fullest extent permitted by applicable law, you agree that EA may scan your computer’s memory or hard disk drive to detect or locate any such unauthorized third party program or devices, with or without any prior notice to you at any time.” allows bioware to scan your computer without your knowledge. Seeing as no one's been banned for macro's we can assume it's okay.

 

As I also said, I view keybinds and macros as different things, so simply binding a load of keys to activate certain abilities is fine, I do that too. But what I don't do is bind several abilities together which is what macro players do. So, who does that make the better player, the person who plays within the rules, and admits their faults, or the person that breaks the rules because it's easier than playing properly?

 

Again, you don't have to use them. It's your prerogative, but don't blame your incompetence because you can't beat other people that do use them. For me, my gameplay won't get affected by having to press shift + ASDFG, rather than just G. In fact my gameplay will worsen as mentioned in my previous post if I did use a macro. I don't have problems with people using macros because I know it does not offer than an advantage.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Swidgin]

I feel for ALL OP/Scoundrel DPS specs ATM.

 

I played a WOW rogue so I know your pain. Xspan comes out and then NERFs follow BCUZ of L2P issues.

 

They will BUFF it back up. Prob not in DPS but in Utility.

 

No worries guys, it doesn't last forever. Rogue classes are VERY needed in PVP.

 

Just hang in there. ATM I play Shadow and have to spec tank BCUZ they can't fig it out yet. They will.

[Ahebish]

I am getting bored with all the QQ, nerf whining and general negativity of the vocal minority in PvP. I am rolling a brand new Concealment Operative, will not go heals, and will show that any class, played in competent hands, can be a force to be reckoned with. This is not ego, not epeen, and not even a class that plays to my strengths, but I sincerely wish PvPers would focus on skill and leave the rest to the Devs.

 

Bioware was quoted as saying teams of Operatives stunnlocking players would be the fall of the game. I say let's prove them right.

 

If you are in, sign below, and let's keep this post going to track our progress and results.

 

Any top level current 50 PvP Concealment Operatives, feel free to post and help grow your community!

 

Forgive me for being a scrub and all.

 

What exactly will this prove?

 

That you simply don't have the skill to beat someone without skill playing an overpowered class? So you want to make a "team of operatives" to prove George correct?

 

I'm struggling to figure out the logic in your statement.

 

1. This class is universally accepted as overnerf'd.

 

2. Therefore I am going to create a team of operatives to prove Georg Z correct.

 

3. Which everyone can basically infer that you have no personal skill to play the class in a 1v1 situation against an underskilled player using an overpowered class.

 

Anyone else see the irony in this or is it just me?

 

By all means knock yourself out I'm not saying don't do it... but doing it really has no merit and you basically admit that you have no skill to play the class to begin with.

 

"I am not a skilled player who knows nothing about the class, but I'm going to prove that a skilled player can make it a viable spec in PVP." Trust me bro Georg made it perfectly unviable nothing you do will change that regardless of your skill level.

 

Let me know how it works out for you though.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Ahebish

[dazednconfuzed]

So you're whining for the sake of whining. Do you tell women what to do with their bodies as well? How about telling parents how they should raise their own kids? If it doesn't affect you, you probably should just keep your opinion to yourself. Ever think that some of these people using macros could be disabled people and need it to play the game competently? Of course not.

 

I'm not whining for the sake of whining. I'm trying to work out an answer to my question, which is, why do all these PvP'ers think they are the best thing on two legs when they have to break the Rules of Conduct to be that good?

 

It's funny that you automatically associate macros with being a good player because they 'don't have to worry about pressing too many buttons'. Pro-tip: Playing well has little to do with your finger dexterity. If this were the case, my nine year old piano playing niece would be the best pvper in the world.

 

I don't associate macros with good players, I associate macros with lazy players because they can't be bothered to play the game properly and have to cheat to get their victories. And then the idiots run around bragging about it. I knew someone playing WoW that did this in PvE too. He used to brag about how great he was, but no-one had the slightest bit of respect for him, because he didn't know how to play the game. All he did was pres a few buttons (macros) and let the game do it for him. Why should I have any more respect for the people that do this during PvP?

 

You could take a very (very) liberal interpretation of that part of the EULA and take it to mean keyboard emulators, but in that case gadgets like the razor naga and even your gamepad would be considered illegal. I've never heard of anyone being banned for using the naga ... have you ?

 

Whether they have been banned or not, it is still against the Rules of Conduct. Look:

 

You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate.

 

Bolded for emphasis by me. So, what part of "Macros are against the Rules of Conduct" is difficult to understand?

 

The EULA are targeting "hacks" like the speed hack, teleporting hacks, and even botting software, which are very very different from a piece of software that emulates keyboard strokes. Again your interpretation is different and not necessarily correct. Until a CM says otherwise, most people will assume 'keyboard emulation' are okay. If you choose to view differently then be it.

 

Well, it's not my fault if they don't know how to read. As quoted above, directly from the Rules of Conduct, macros are illegal.

 

I'll even go as far as to tell you, bioware knows that people are using macros. This part of the EULA: "To the fullest extent permitted by applicable law, you agree that EA may scan your computer’s memory or hard disk drive to detect or locate any such unauthorized third party program or devices, with or without any prior notice to you at any time.” allows bioware to scan your computer without your knowledge. Seeing as no one's been banned for macro's we can assume it's okay.

 

No, you can assume you haven't been caught yet. There is a difference.

 

Again, you don't have to use them. It's your prerogative, but don't blame your incompetence because you can't beat other people that do use them. For me, my gameplay won't get affected by having to press shift + ASDFG, rather than just G. In fact my gameplay will worsen as mentioned in my previous post if I did use a macro. I don't have problems with people using macros because I know it does not offer than an advantage.

 

Do you not know how to read? As I have already said, I DO NOT BLAME OTHERS FOR ME SUCKING IN PVP. I blame others for cheating in PvP because they haven't the decency to play a game properly, but I don't blame them for me dying. I'm still fairly new to PvP. While I have made some improvement to my game, I still go into a WZ expecting to die lots.

[Numerii]

ummm you do realize conceal op is a very very good class don't you? I find it so easy to play.

 

lol this. I'd probably be in agreement with the OP and some others if not for the fact that there is all of one really good Operative(actually he/she's a Scoundrel) on my server that I've come across. Most of them are so bad that simply the blind on my bubble is all it takes to beat them because they don't know what to do when they lose the opener and then get kited by what is normally a free kill class for them.

 

An Operative in the hands of a skilled player is easily a force to be reckoned with. Don't need to roll one to understand this, you just need to meet a skilled Operative.

[Orangerascal]

You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate.

 

What this says is this: You can't use a macro to bot while you're afk. Instead of just quoting the first phrase... maybe try and read the whole sentence next time . What this mean is: if someone programs their g15 to keep keep pressing the tab + '1' key while he parks his character beside a mob, he will get banned.

 

The 2nd place "macro" appears is here: "Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications." ... again this pertains to botting and not keyboard emulation hence the "auto" ... particularly Auto-It, a macro recording software.

 

Keyboard emulation and "macros" are very, very different. This is your fundamental problem is not understanding this very simple concept and confusing the two. "Macros" as defined by bioware requires a programming loop, while keyboard emulations don't. So yes "macros" by the way bioware describes it should be banned.

 

But you're not talking about the same thing now. Here's the proof of concept: "Why don't they ban multi-boxers, who use the same emulation software?" ... the answer ... they don't.

 

Try again.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Orangerascal

[laiboch]

Is it skill or whoever spends $300 dollars on a Naga Mouse and Keyboard? I know of people how have really good reaction times due to them being able to macro abilities with their keyboard. How is that skill? I play with just a normal keyboard with very minor mouse support and find in certain situations I lack, simply because I refuse to pay 300 bucks.

 

Merc Stealth Keayboard

 

There you go. A $90 solution to your "$300" problem....

[dazednconfuzed]

What this says is this: You can't use a macro to bot while you're afk. Instead of just quoting the first phrase... maybe try and read the whole sentence next time . What this mean is: if someone programs their g15 to keep keep pressing the tab + '1' key while he parks his character beside a mob, he will get banned.

 

The 2nd place "macro" appears is here: "Use or distribute “auto” software programs, “macro” software programs or other “cheat utility” software program or applications." ... again this pertains to botting and not keyboard emulation.

 

Keyboard emulation and "macros" are very, very different. This is your fundamental problem is not understanding this very simple point. Macros as defined by bioware requires a programming loop, while keyboard emulations don't. So yes "macros" by the way bioware describes it should be banned. But you're not talking about the same thing now.

 

Try again.

 

Or maybe you could try reading the Rules of Conduct, then you might actually see that I quoted the entire paragraph, not just a sentence. And your '2nd' place it mentions macros actually comes first in the RoC. The line you quoted comes from the General section at the start. Mine comes from the "Mod, Hack and Cheat Prohibitions" section, so if anything, is more specific to what we have been talking about.

 

Try again?

[SteffizleESQ]

...

 

This thread is not about macros...

 

To the OP- I'm looking forward to your first update.

[Orangerascal]

Or maybe you could try reading the Rules of Conduct, then you might actually see that I quoted the entire paragraph, not just a sentence. And your '2nd' place it mentions macros actually comes first in the RoC. The line you quoted comes from the General section at the start. Mine comes from the "Mod, Hack and Cheat Prohibitions" section, so if anything, is more specific to what we have been talking about.

 

Try again?

 

I know you're stretching now, but this is too much. Anyway good luck on your campaign against keyboard emulators. You'll need it. Meanwhile, disabled veterans, multiboxers and "pro-pvpers" will know something you don't and will be that much smarter for it.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Motoeric]

i own on my concealment operative. getting close to 4k openers in full bm w/ a relic popped seems fine to me.

 

i found it hilarious that people called them gimped. hah just goes to show u how bad the average swtor pvper is

[Orangerascal]

Or maybe you could try reading the Rules of Conduct, then you might actually see that I quoted the entire paragraph, not just a sentence. And your '2nd' place it mentions macros actually comes first in the RoC. The line you quoted comes from the General section at the start. Mine comes from the "Mod, Hack and Cheat Prohibitions" section, so if anything, is more specific to what we have been talking about.

 

Try again?

 

I don't know ... this post by 'Beruthien' basically says you're 100% wrong and I'm right, I highlighted the relevant part.

 

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

No automation

No delays or looped commands in macros

It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Orangerascal

[fungihoujo]

Grats on being able to beat low geared chumps as any class, I guess? Since 95% of the playerbase are either bads or poorly geared- and a good chunk of that are both.

 

Now, I'll be a little more interested to hear how you do on that concealment Operative in the pvp tournaments and multi server tests of the best players vs the best players that.... won't be happening because the pvp in this game is so imbalanced nobody would ever consider it tournament worthy.

[SteffizleESQ]

Its been over a month since the last post. Any news from the OP?