True Test of PvP Skill

[irishdrunk]

I agree. . .but if they're gonna allow it with hardware keyboards/mouse :/ it does sound unfair

 

The MLB doesn't furnish the teams equipment, if they want to be competitive, they spend the money. people will always pay for an edge. It's perfectly fair because gaming hardware is available to all. If you can't afford it, that doesn't make it unfair.

[Haystak]

Scoundrel/Operative is an awesome AC, I love killing all the other ACs in this game, I wouldn't call it skill though, the class just scales very well with top tier gear. Most players quit playing it before they can get a good set going, or go heals.

 

Only class that give me trouble(beats me more often than not) are the Shadow/ Sin Tank hybrids, and like everyone else, skilled healers. I Look forward to the video though, maybe you will come up with soemthing the rest of of havent tried.

 

My only complain is the class is very linear as far as decision making out of stealth is concerned.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Haystak

[Humankeg]

....but there's not rankings or ratings...............................................................................dotdotdotperioddot

 

Because one can't possibly play other games in conjunction with TOR, one can't possibly judge the skill of another without ratings, and one can't possibly use the ratings from other games in reference to ranking players playing a game that doesn't have rankings.

[williambr]

I agree. . .but if they're gonna allow it with hardware keyboards/mouse :/ it does sound unfair

 

I played an mmo with macros, it gets to the point where you press 1. for fighting this class, press 2. for this class and so on and so fourth. You might as well pay someone else to play the game for you. I know theres a hundred sob stories out there, but in all reality you don't ruin something for the majority when the minority wants to play.

[williambr]

I would consider this skill. That's like saying Michael Jordan is a hack unless he plays wearing Walmart shoes.

 

Lol, everyone knows Michael Jordan was good because he was wearing Jordans lol. Of course, I bought a pair of Jordans and my white %%%%% still couldn't slam on a regulation rim. Wait a minute, did Jordan lie to me?!?

[criminalheretic]

Concealment is a very powerful PvP being the best single target burst in the game out of stealth with great control and good utility.

 

The majority of players I see use over load shot as a filler so they feel the class is weak because they have not figured out how to manage the resource.

 

Played in a team setting -which is SWTOR PvP- it is a fantastic build offensively and defensively as they see stealth early.

 

The number of times me a Sorcerer and my friend a concealment Operative were able to take turrets from 2's 3's and 4's I stopped counting. We alternate our CC's and burn down target so quickly!

 

If BW ever wakes up they will figure out this game would make some of the best arena match-ups in MMO's today!

 

^^^ This. Someone who measures the value of their class by how they contribute to winning a WZ, rather than winning a 1v1 vs a Marauder.

 

The only classes who should measure their value by 1v1 fighting, are the classes that can ONLY fight 1v1.

 

There are 2 types of classes, those that can kill people, and those that can kill people AND do something else. If you are one of the "and" classes stop measuring your value by dueling, and start measuring it by support.

[Vortuus]

The MLB doesn't furnish the teams equipment, if they want to be competitive, they spend the money. people will always pay for an edge. It's perfectly fair because gaming hardware is available to all. If you can't afford it, that doesn't make it unfair.

 

Quoted for truth. If the only computer you can afford puts you at 3 FPS, does that mean I 'bought' my way to killing you?

 

Quit whining over macros. Activating multiple abilities with a single keystroke isn't gamebreaking, it's convenience.

[DweezillKagemand]

I play DPS Operative. The skill curve is pretty big, but once you get it down, it owns.

 

Not really a test of skill though.

[dazednconfuzed]

Quoted for truth. If the only computer you can afford puts you at 3 FPS, does that mean I 'bought' my way to killing you?

 

Basically, yes. You have an advantage over them because you had more money than they did. It is a bit of a silly example you used though. I don't think anyone is really going to complain (not about the game anyways) if they are really trying to pvp with 3 fps.

 

Quit whining over macros. Activating multiple abilities with a single keystroke isn't gamebreaking, it's convenience.

 

Activating multiple abilities with one keystroke is cheating. I'm pretty sure it is even against the TOS since it basically amounts to macro'ing, and the devs have said repeatedly that they want people to play their game, not macro through it. If they wanted people to use macros, they would have put them in game.

 

Personally, I think that anyone using macros in pvp should be banned. They are cheating to provide themselves with an unfair advantage over people who play the game the way it is meant to be played.

[RainbowRue]

Lvl 50 scrapper scoundrel and loving it

[dcgregorya]

Any class in this game (minus merc dps) can be pretty good in skilled hands.

 

That doesn't mean that there isn't gross imbalance between classes.

 

Put the two most skilled players in the game, one on a marauder and one on a merc dps, and see what happens after 100 matches. Do the same with only a good player playing a maruader vs the best player on a merc. See what happens.

 

Imbalance happens. Stop being ignorant.

 

This iis hardly even a test, let alone something worth mentioning btw.

 

Lies. PVP is not arena. It DOES NOT MATTER THAT SOME CLASSES BEAT OTHERS IN 1 VERSUS 1 SCENARIOS. I slaughter marauders all the time with my gunslinger, that doesn't make them underpowered.

 

Can a marauder beat a merc in a 1vs1? Usually yes. Does that mean that merc DPS is useless in PVP or will underperform? No.

 

If you define the role of a DPS as doing lots of damage per second to the enemy team, a merc DPS is quite arguably better at it than a marauder and can and do easily top the leaderboard when played by competent players. That doesn't mean they can go around soloing groups of 3 single handed but that's a matter of what your expectations are for what the class should be capable of as a DPS. When it comes to actually applying DPS mercs do just fine.

[dcgregorya]

Is it skill or whoever spends $300 dollars on a Naga Mouse and Keyboard? I know of people how have really good reaction times due to them being able to macro abilities with their keyboard. How is that skill? I play with just a normal keyboard with very minor mouse support and find in certain situations I lack, simply because I refuse to pay 300 bucks.

 

I top leaderboards on my laptop. Please stop making excuses for why you're struggling and embrace that it is a matter of skill and requires practice and research on your part rather than writing it off to random nonsense. The problem with these forums is most of the people will come here to complain about how things are broken when what is actually broken is them.

 

And besides once relics and adrenals are gone out of PVP what would you even macro anyway? Those are the only things (adrenal + relic) that you'd pop at the same time. Claiming that hitting a macro button to pop both compared to hitting Shift X+Y (my keybinds for relic/adrenal) is gamebreaking is ridiculous.

Edited June 11, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Vortuus]

Activating multiple abilities with one keystroke is cheating. I'm pretty sure it is even against the TOS since it basically amounts to macro'ing, and the devs have said repeatedly that they want people to play their game, not macro through it. If they wanted people to use macros, they would have put them in game.

 

Personally, I think that anyone using macros in pvp should be banned. They are cheating to provide themselves with an unfair advantage over people who play the game the way it is meant to be played.

 

No, it's not cheating. No, it's not against the ToS.

 

I think the biggest problem here re: 'macros' is so many bad players don't the know the difference between a cast sequence macro, key-modifier maco, a [harm] etc condition macro, and a multiple keystroke macro. You are either one of these people or you are just very, very, very ill informed.

 

You can do key-modifier macros in the ingame keybindings. It's just a 'sloppy' way to do it. I'd much rather have 3 and alt-3 be on the same hotkey slot and have a #showtooltip for each rather than having them on two separate bars. This is one form of macro. Installing this form into the game would not change anything besides 'convenience'.

 

You can do multiple ability activation macros in game. Again this is done in keybindings ingame, again it's just a sloppy way to do it. Activating this style macro with one click with the macro built into a mouse/kb is 'simpler' for most.

 

[harm]style macros can not be done either way.

 

The ONLY unique way I've found that is significantly useful to use a macro'd device that is ALSO not obtainable in game is healing. I don't use them, but you can use mouseover macros for healing with a programmable device rather than the clunky click healing of the game. Even doing this with a 'macro', you are not doing true mouseover healing, as part of the macro is selecting your mouseover to gain as a target before using the desired ability. So slight advantage to device, but not gamebreaking.

 

Like another poster said macros, kbs, mice, etc are just more excuses for people to explain why someone is beating them. Quit making excuses and look at the real problem. And if you really are going to throw out things like "It's against the ToS" then I am FULLY aware of how much to value your opinion on anything. You are obviously another clueless player that came to the PvP forums to find out why someone killed you. Sorry, rateds are coming, and you're going to figure out anyone who can fog a spoon is using you as their personal gimp.

[Orangerascal]

....

 

Stop making excuses. Also, people are gimping yourself if they are using a macro because there are key instances where you don't want an ability to fire.

 

Bad players make excuses, good players get better ... which are you ?

[Laksmanaya]

For biggest proving effect, roll an Arsenal Merc / Gunnery Commando.

 

While you're at it, record some vids of you owning pvp with that.

 

Even better, do it in a ranked warzone.

[Stilly]

I only came to this thread because I wanted to laugh at the joke. Surely there would be one since it mentioned skill in relationship to swtor. Turns out this kid is serious. Now I'm just sad. Thanks a lot.

[Veniras]

Only bads use macros in pvp

 

And mice with more than 5 buttons. And gamepads. And Vent/Mumble

[Ceasaigh]

I am getting bored with all the QQ, nerf whining and general negativity of the vocal minority in PvP. I am rolling a brand new Concealment Operative, will not go heals, and will show that any class, played in competent hands, can be a force to be reckoned with. This is not ego, not epeen, and not even a class that plays to my strengths, but I sincerely wish PvPers would focus on skill and leave the rest to the Devs.

 

Bioware was quoted as saying teams of Operatives stunnlocking players would be the fall of the game. I say let's prove them right.

 

If you are in, sign below, and let's keep this post going to track our progress and results.

 

Any top level current 50 PvP Concealment Operatives, feel free to post and help grow your community!

 

Bring your new recruit geared Operative against my Full War hero Scoundrel and I guarantee I will face roll you so fast it will make your head spin. This has nothing to do with my skill it has to do with my GEAR!

 

Your miserable 1000 expertise and 13K health can not compete with my 1300 Expertise 18K+ health.

 

In other words classes and performance in SWTOR PvP are not based on the skill of the player, it's in the level of gear. I don't care how skilled you think you are if you're in low tier PvP gear or like some no PvP gear and you face a player in top tier full War Hero gear you're gonna get rolled PERIOD! Against some classes you would be dead in 3 GCD's. Now as gear scales and you start to get expertise your performance does increase, but not until your facing a equally geared opponent can you claim skill in this game.

 

When both players are in full War Hero and have 1300+ Expertise and 17500+ health then yes it comes down to skill and knowing how to play your class because you are both equal.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Ceasaigh

[Harlequintwo]

Well I say go gettum guys! On my Shadow, I went up against an Operative to was really good, scary good. No matter what situation I went against him on, he always seemed to win 1v1. It just goes to show that if you have the skill, you can master any class.

[dazednconfuzed]

No, it's not cheating. No, it's not against the ToS.

 

I think the biggest problem here re: 'macros' is so many bad players don't the know the difference between a cast sequence macro, key-modifier maco, a [harm] etc condition macro, and a multiple keystroke macro. You are either one of these people or you are just very, very, very ill informed.

 

You can do key-modifier macros in the ingame keybindings. It's just a 'sloppy' way to do it. I'd much rather have 3 and alt-3 be on the same hotkey slot and have a #showtooltip for each rather than having them on two separate bars. This is one form of macro. Installing this form into the game would not change anything besides 'convenience'.

 

You can do multiple ability activation macros in game. Again this is done in keybindings ingame, again it's just a sloppy way to do it. Activating this style macro with one click with the macro built into a mouse/kb is 'simpler' for most.

 

[harm]style macros can not be done either way.

 

The ONLY unique way I've found that is significantly useful to use a macro'd device that is ALSO not obtainable in game is healing. I don't use them, but you can use mouseover macros for healing with a programmable device rather than the clunky click healing of the game. Even doing this with a 'macro', you are not doing true mouseover healing, as part of the macro is selecting your mouseover to gain as a target before using the desired ability. So slight advantage to device, but not gamebreaking.

 

Like another poster said macros, kbs, mice, etc are just more excuses for people to explain why someone is beating them. Quit making excuses and look at the real problem. And if you really are going to throw out things like "It's against the ToS" then I am FULLY aware of how much to value your opinion on anything. You are obviously another clueless player that came to the PvP forums to find out why someone killed you. Sorry, rateds are coming, and you're going to figure out anyone who can fog a spoon is using you as their personal gimp.

 

Why does someone need to be a 'bad' player to be unaware of these differences? To me a macro is something you use which takes aspects of gameplay out of player control and automates it. That is my personal view of a macro, and therefore is the definition I use in my posts. Or perhaps you could explain to me, in a system where pressing '1' activates the ability on the number 1 position of your toolbar, how is pressing '1' to activate abilities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, is not automating gameplay? You are sat at your PC, true, but you are not playing the game, you are repeatedly pressing a button, and watching the game play itself. So, as I said... automating gameplay, which is in the Ts&Cs as being against the TOS.

 

And I'll have you know I know exactly why I die in PvP... Because I'm still new to PvP, and I still suck at it. Other people have very little to do with it, so just because someone doesn't understand there are supposedly many terms for macros and automating TOR's gameplay (as opposed to just 'macros') doesn't mean they are some retard who can't accept the fact that in PvP, people die.

 

So, anyways, since you are so knowledgable about this macro'ing thing, perhaps you could explain it to me... How does pressing 1 button to activate 5 abilities make you better than someone who presses all 5 buttons? Not more efficient, or any such crap like that, but better. How does automating your gameplay make you a better player to the person who plays the game properly?

 

Edit: My mistake, it's not against the TOS. That specifies 'third-party' software, or software you own, but it is against the SWTOR Rules of Conduct, as quoted here:

 

You may not use macros, add-ons or other stored rapid keystrokes, "dupes," "cheats" or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate.

 

So, your macros and keybindings are, in fact, illegal (relative to the Rules at least). And in case anyone brings up the second part of that quote ("... to facilitate acquisition..."), it is still against the Rules. You are using those macros, keybinds, to further your acquisition of valor, commendations, xp, and credits.

 

Stop making excuses. Also, people are gimping yourself if they are using a macro because there are key instances where you don't want an ability to fire.

 

Bad players make excuses, good players get better ... which are you ?

 

Right, of course they are gimped So occasionally not wanting to use an ability makes them gimped every time they use that macro, right?

 

As for good/bad players... I'll fully admit that I suck at PvP. I'm getting better, but I still suck. Not looking to make excuses for me dying though... I do that repeatedly in WZs anyways, so why try to make excuses for it?

 

What I am talking about is the ability to press one key, and have 5 powers activate having an advantage over the ability to press 5 keys to have 5 powers activate. If you can't see how that gives someone an advantage, then you are blind.

Edited June 11, 2012 by dazednconfuzed

[dazednconfuzed]

You can do key-modifier macros in the ingame keybindings. It's just a 'sloppy' way to do it. I'd much rather have 3 and alt-3 be on the same hotkey slot and have a #showtooltip for each rather than having them on two separate bars. This is one form of macro. Installing this form into the game would not change anything besides 'convenience'.

 

I don't think of keybindings and macros as the same thing.

 

Keybindings are multiple keys to activate one ability, whereas macros are keybinds that have multiple effects.

 

At least, that is how I've always viewed it.

 

Sorry for the double post, but I've been trying to think of a way to explain this since my last post. Leave me alone, recovering from the weekend

[Osskscosco]

Cool story, bro.

 

^ this

[Humankeg]

Lies. PVP is not arena. It DOES NOT MATTER THAT SOME CLASSES BEAT OTHERS IN 1 VERSUS 1 SCENARIOS. I slaughter marauders all the time with my gunslinger, that doesn't make them underpowered.

 

Can a marauder beat a merc in a 1vs1? Usually yes. Does that mean that merc DPS is useless in PVP or will underperform? No.

 

If you define the role of a DPS as doing lots of damage per second to the enemy team, a merc DPS is quite arguably better at it than a marauder and can and do easily top the leaderboard when played by competent players. That doesn't mean they can go around soloing groups of 3 single handed but that's a matter of what your expectations are for what the class should be capable of as a DPS. When it comes to actually applying DPS mercs do just fine.

 

Its the truths, not lies. And the same goes for 2vs2, 3vs3, ect. There are some classes that are just better than others.

[Humankeg]

Bring your new recruit geared Operative against my Full War hero Scoundrel and I guarantee I will face roll you so fast it will make your head spin. This has nothing to do with my skill it has to do with my GEAR!

 

Your miserable 1000 expertise and 13K health can not compete with my 1300 Expertise 18K+ health.

 

In other words classes and performance in SWTOR PvP are not based on the skill of the player, it's in the level of gear. I don't care how skilled you think you are if you're in low tier PvP gear or like some no PvP gear and you face a player in top tier full War Hero gear you're gonna get rolled PERIOD! Against some classes you would be dead in 3 GCD's. Now as gear scales and you start to get expertise your performance does increase, but not until your facing a equally geared opponent can you claim skill in this game.

 

When both players are in full War Hero and have 1300+ Expertise and 17500+ health then yes it comes down to skill and knowing how to play your class because you are both equal.

 

While gear certainly means a lot, skill also is heavily relied upon.

 

My PT was PERFECTLY geared for pvp pre 1.2 . Had 4 pc rakata, 500 expertise, all surge/power mods, ect. I saved my BM commendations and wanted to wait until after 1.2 to buy the BM gear I needed to max out my expertise with the new changes.

 

I got boned with the BM changes. Now I am rolling with 800 expertise, 16k life, still in 4 pc rakata and rest BM gear, and still doing more than just better better, even against stiff competition.

[Humankeg]

I don't think of keybindings and macros as the same thing.

 

Keybindings are multiple keys to activate one ability, whereas macros are keybinds that have multiple effects.

 

At least, that is how I've always viewed it.

 

Sorry for the double post, but I've been trying to think of a way to explain this since my last post. Leave me alone, recovering from the weekend

 

No one uses multiple keys to activate one ability. That's just stupid.

 

Ok ok, mercs have TM bound to every key on their board.

 

Why does someone need to be a 'bad' player to be unaware of these differences? To me a macro is something you use which takes aspects of gameplay out of player control and automates it. That is my personal view of a macro, and therefore is the definition I use in my posts. Or perhaps you could explain to me, in a system where pressing '1' activates the ability on the number 1 position of your toolbar, how is pressing '1' to activate abilities 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, is not automating gameplay? You are sat at your PC, true, but you are not playing the game, you are repeatedly pressing a button, and watching the game play itself. So, as I said... automating gameplay, which is in the Ts&Cs as being against the TOS.

.

 

Cast sequence macros (which are generally broken in game by the game's dev's) do what you described. Actual, helpful macros, do other things.

 

Cast Sequence macro: pressing one button, and the macro cycles through multiple abilities, each on a different gcd, with no thought from the player.

 

Other macros, for example, can turn on all 3 of my dps cool downs with the press of one button (they are all off the GCD and can be used the exact same time). That is much better than having to hit a different key for each one; this macro is not a cast sequence.

 

Another example is using a single key to do a couple different things, depending on the circumstances. For example, if you are in stealth, pressing "1" will have you open with your stealth opener. Once out of stealth though, pressing "1" again will use another ability that can't be used while out of stealth.

 

Another example: a single key can compose of different keys all in one. A macro can use the same key/ability slot for "1", "ctrl-1", "alt-1", "shift-1", ect. So you can fit 4 abilities/macros into one space.

 

These are all examples of smart, convenient game play; not automated gameplay having the computer (or macro) play for you.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Humankeg