Petition to the Adrenals change

[Mirthadrond]

HURRAY FOR CHANGE!!

 

Petition not signed.

 

Hopefully this will mean I do NOT have to drop my level 400 Armor, arms, synth and art, crafting skills on all my characters so I can be competitive in PVP.

 

There is a serious 'flaw' in the game design if you HAVE to be Biochem to be competitive.

 

This is a welcome change before ranked war zones.

[Lymain]

The adrenal change is great, imo. No downside, really, unless you think Biochem should give a PvP advantage.

 

On the other hand, I'm kinda sad to see clicky Relics removed from PvP, but I understand low TTK is an issue. I think a nerf to their effectiveness would have been better than completely removing them.

[kweassa]

I honestly don't see healing overpowered or not before 1.2 or after 1.2. Maybe it's bad if we have no healers on our side, but if all the guys on my team are good I'll take a chance on it unless it's Huttball (can't win if you can't keep ball carrier alive). Defeating the healers is not a necessary condition to win the WZ on all maps. Alderaan and Voidstar can be won rather easily this way.

 

Same here.

 

You don't need to kill the healers to stop them from healing. You just need smart players.

 

The way it is now, you don't need smart players, you just need one of those massive damage-dealing classes with a relic and a adrenal. Before 1.2. I took pride in being able to shut off healers for very long periods with my tank Guardian without having to actually kill it... but now, *pfft* just send any high-damage class to pound on a healer and it goes down even with guard on top of it. You don't even need to separate the guarder and the healer... just have both dealers busting up the healer and by the time the healer goes down(quickly) the guarder's also dead.

 

As it is, frankly speaking, the only people who would oppose these line of changes are Mara/Sents, PT/Vanguards and spike-build Focus/Rage Jugg/Guardians.

Edited June 7, 2012 by kweassa

[NoTomorrow]

Adrenals were the plague of PvP, it forced ppl to go biochem. It gave a huuuge edge to invisibile classes that could attack at the most appropriate moment for them. Besides i really hated their tremendous versatility, while you had to equip a relic, no such comitment was necessary from them.

 

And the crazy burst, we dont need things like W.TF just happened? In pvp.

Edited June 7, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Husanak]

This was a much needed change...

 

Frankly the on use stuff should have never made it out of beta.

 

YES there should be burst in game... however it should be burst you need to use intelligently. The Adrenal + Relic stacking sillyness was completely 100% skilless. There was no thinking involved at all. Need burst click click burst. Burst should not exist in a game that is capable of taking anyone from 100-0 in one rotation. It just shouldn't. Well designed burst should be the type of dmg that takes someone from 50-0 faster then the dmg can be healed.

 

Relics and Adrenals where bad for the game... very bad... look at the sub numbers and you should be able to see that.

 

This game is STUN heavy which is fine... if people in general survive them, which lets be honest they do not. I am fine with them slowing the pace of the game slightly.

 

Another way to look at this change is this... HOW do you balance a class properly when people are relying on items and consumables (or non consumable if they where smart enough to roll bioc). People are calling this a further Operative nerf, which is just crazy. Yes being a stealth class it was easiest to setup a click click burst move out of stealth, honestly if the design of the class is to be aimed at burst kills with in an opening rotation... then it should have that power with out needed click pots. I hate to break it to people the OP/Sc class was NOT designed to be a one hit one kill class. (yes I have played one its 5-10 clicks... but still point holds). I will say the class needs some skill tree love... but that has nothing to do with the terrible clicky design.

[AKfourtyseven]

This change is good in regards to making biochem not so attractive, but the harsh reality is good luck trying to bring down guarded healers without burst

 

I know people didnt like it, but adrenal bust was needed for very specific situations (like operative healers running around with guard on while a sorc cross heals...).

 

We will have to see how things play out. Maybe some of those sage healers that got shelved will suddenly appear again.

Edited June 7, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Husanak]

This change is good in regards to making biochem not so attractive, but the harsh reality is good luck trying to burst down guarded healers without burst

 

I know people didnt like it, but adrenal bust was needed for very specific situations (like operative healers running around with guard on while a sorc cross heals...).

 

We will have to see how things play out. Maybe some of those sage healers that got shelved will suddenly appear again.

 

Indeed it is true that some of those heal guard combos are going to be even more annoying now.

 

I don't know I am still willing to give Bio a bit of trust here. They are still 6 months or so into there first MMO... I think by removing the clicky items from the formula... perhaps the wonderful metrics they keep referencing will show TRUE DPS class numbers... and they can tweek the classes properly.

 

Ah well another MMO another constantly changing meta game... this is what we love isn't it?

[kaya]

I dunno ...

Adrenals being gone is a good thing and the basic idea behind it is a good one.

On use relics ... i think that kind of an extra boost to dps (or defence or healing) is a good option to have for a player.

Knowing when to use it and when or how to get away from someone who's just used one ... i think it has a place in pvp.

It just adds a bit of unpredictability to a fight.

Lower the power and increase the duration if necessary but personally i think removing adrenals is enough.

[kweassa]

This change is good in regards to making biochem not so attractive, but the harsh reality is good luck trying to bring down guarded healers without burst

 

I know people didnt like it, but adrenal bust was needed for very specific situations (like operative healers running around with guard on while a sorc cross heals...).

 

We do it the old-fashioned way, how we used to do it before 1.2.

That's what you call "skill".

 

People simply mowing down a guarded target with brute force adrenals and relics.. killing the guard in the process as well... you don't call that "skill". You call that easy mode.

Edited June 7, 2012 by kweassa

[Xsorus]

If you played any of the heavy Burst classes, and honestly think the change is bad, you're just out for yourself.

 

I have both a Sniper and a Pyro powertech, Popping my buffs basically meant death to the person unless a group killed me first.

 

Seriously, The way you can stack DPS in this game, you honestly don't even need this, the premade i run in before Diablo 3 was 4 Pyro Powertech's, that's right.. we didn't even run a Healer...Because we would mow through enemy teams who had healers so fast it was simply un-needed.

 

I mean when you spawn camp a entire 8 man premade with 4 people, who have a extremely good setup, It's rather silly.

[PloGreen]

This change is good in regards to making biochem not so attractive, but the harsh reality is good luck trying to bring down guarded healers without burst

 

I know people didnt like it, but adrenal bust was needed for very specific situations (like operative healers running around with guard on while a sorc cross heals...).

 

We will have to see how things play out. Maybe some of those sage healers that got shelved will suddenly appear again.

 

This is just false. Sages kill healers frequently because they have the tools to interrupt in numerous ways, and they don't have any burst at all. You people are saying the sky is falling, burst was too much and certain classes benefitted from this much more than others. So basically good change, you will have to use cc and teamwork now, what a shame..

 

I approve of this change, it addresses the s some classes were experiencing on terms if being squishy and focused out of the game, gives a bit more back to healing and brings some of the ridiculous classes burst back to earth and forces them to think more strategically. They might save this game after all, we will see.

[dcgregorya]

I don't agree with you OP. The change was absolutely needed.

 

There were multiple times in a single warzone where one player could stack burst to levels that made it IMPOSSIBLE to survive a single DPS rotation. Thats ridiculously dumb and incredibly frustrating to be on the end of.

 

Because clearly if someone blows all their 2-3 minute cooldowns you should be able to survive and subsequently heal through it. Spider tanking healing is coming back and it's boring and stupid. They needed to make changes but they should not be making so many simultaneously.

[dcgregorya]

I really wonder who these 'buy your adrenal' guys are. You must be some of the richest guy in SWTOR because they sure are very expensive, that is if they're sold anywhere on your server still due to a nonexistent economy. I guess you can send out guys to gather materials, send that to a Biochem alt to make the stuff and mail them back every day but in that case it'd be easier to just take Biochem and save the money. And if you say WZ consumables, I know Warlords and even Elite Warlords who don't use WZ consumable anywhere near the frequency you could use Biochem consumables and by definition these are the guys most capable of using WZ consumables since this is a strictly time played issue.

 

The warzone ones are just fine. They're what I use on my non-biochem and biochem chars when I can afford them. Adrenals are not a problem. Relics are not a problem. On-use things are good ideas and good for competitive game play. Tweak the numbers if they are too powerful, or the cooldowns, or the duration of the effect. Removing them entirely, plus making a bunch of other changes, is going to mess up the balance even more while dumbing down PVP.

[dcgregorya]

This was a much needed change...

 

Frankly the on use stuff should have never made it out of beta.

 

YES there should be burst in game... however it should be burst you need to use intelligently. The Adrenal + Relic stacking sillyness was completely 100% skilless. There was no thinking involved at all. Need burst click click burst.

 

When to use it and when to save it is skill enough more than most people could handle. Most people don't even pop relics at all. They're just catering to the baddies IMHO by removing them. They can certainly nerf them without removing them entirely - you SHOULD have consumables that you SHOULD have to time appropriately to achieve wins.

 

1.2 was the break PVP patch and now 1.3 is the dumb the game down patch.

Edited June 7, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Funick]

I do not like this change, using adrenals/relics at the right time and countering when your opponent uses them with cc is part of what makes fights in this game more interesting, changing it in this way simply dumbs it down...

 

I agree with not allowing biochem adrenals as it made biochem OP.

 

I think if they really wanted to lower burst maybe they should make adrenals and relic buffs not stack, they should also improve the defensive relics to make them more effectively counter the offensive relics. well timed use of relics/adrenals on healers also helps them burst heal someone back up. completely removing relics/adrenals just takes a whole dynamic out of fights and that is a bad thing imo.

[PloGreen]

When to use it and when to save it is skill enough more than most people could handle. Most people don't even pop relics at all. They're just catering to the baddies IMHO by removing them. They can certainly nerf them without removing them entirely - you SHOULD have consumables that you SHOULD have to time appropriately to achieve wins.

 

1.2 was the break PVP patch and now 1.3 is the dumb the game down patch.

 

 

Burst was too much, the number of people that left the game post 1.2 was huge. The number of pvpers left playing the game in pvp is quite small. You need to understand some classes have no burst and are very squishy along with it. Playing those classes is alot harder than stacking relics and pressing a couple of buttons to win. If people are relying on massive spike damage to win - then they are terrible. Crown control and interupts are perfectly valid ways to bring healers down, not just flat out dps.

[kweassa]

Burst was too much, the number of people that left the game post 1.2 was huge. The number of pvpers left playing the game in pvp is quite small. You need to understand some classes have no burst and are very squishy along with it. Playing those classes is alot harder than stacking relics and pressing a couple of buttons to win. If people are relying on massive spike damage to win - then they are terrible. Crown control and interupts are perfectly valid ways to bring healers down, not just flat out dps.

 

Well said.

[Lanimal]

I think they should have left the On Use Relics there and tweaked the amount they give.

 

I am fine the adrenal changes. For the longest time grinding for WH gear I was restricted to recklessness + relic usage anyway. Its good enough without being OP.

[Smashbrother]

First off I have to say why in the world would you do this bioware....I mean what is the logic into taking away burst in the game....I am writing this and I hope many of the members in the community who know how to pvp will agree, this is going to make pvp stale and pointless. The whole point of popping adrenals is for the burst to quickly down an enemy guarding a node, carrying a flag etc.....Now with this healers can just sit there and heal all day and not have to worry about the person there healing dying. This goes the same for the warzone expertise adrenals.....you keep the damage reduction but take away the healing and damage....

 

Bioware says they listen to the community, since when did any of the community ask for something like this...Dont fix something that wasnt broke. Bioware needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I hate to say it but WOW's resillience works, stop trying to change it cause its not going to work...... well folks lets keep this going with just a /sign if you are against this change or If you have any other examples or input feel free. If you are all for this change then explain why you feel that way.

 

**quick edit to my point.... give us back the on use abilties on relics, the adrenals I will agree at not letting them be used as its an unfair crafting skill edge so i will agree there....since you are giving us the ability to craft the warzone adrenals but there again put the increase in damage and healing back on the expertise adrenals.

 

I think that what i just listed will do a few things, 1. tone down the burst but still giving us the ability to choose when we burst, and 2 gives biochems another item to craft to be competitive in the crafting area, and GTN.

 

You realize healers and tanks used relics/adrenals too right? If burst EVERYTHING is lowered now. I won't be able to get huge *** heal crits anymore either.

 

This change keeps everything relatively equal between classes, but highers TTK overall.

[EbonFade]

Completely disagree with the OP, TTK and burst in general is and has been (even pre 1.2) a major problem in this game. Its particularly obvious to the elite PVPers with coordinated burst in teams.

 

(1 person using adrenals.. fine. 3 people at once, not fine and more or less instant death)

 

It had to be changed, and im glad it is.

[krarom]

Hi!

 

Sounds like you will have the opportunity to spend more time fighting than respawning in the waiting room? Especially for us squishy without interrupts ( i am BH/merc almost full BM gear) if i get 2 god ppl on me i am dead in 2-4 sec with medpacks and everything popped. As it is now i want to fight more and look thru the glass less

[skotish]

Hi!

 

Sounds like you will have the opportunity to spend more time fighting than respawning in the waiting room? Especially for us squishy without interrupts ( i am BH/merc almost full BM gear) if i get 2 god ppl on me i am dead in 2-4 sec with medpacks and everything popped. As it is now i want to fight more and look thru the glass less

I am on the PTs playing my merc bodyguard heals are lower no spike left sents

and maras still Own us pretty badly will play some more today but nothing

has changed if you pug and have No guard on you prepare to get shafted

and spend all your time behind the door

Edited June 7, 2012 by skotish

[Traestus]

Burst was too much, the number of people that left the game post 1.2 was huge. The number of pvpers left playing the game in pvp is quite small. You need to understand some classes have no burst and are very squishy along with it. Playing those classes is alot harder than stacking relics and pressing a couple of buttons to win. If people are relying on massive spike damage to win - then they are terrible. Crown control and interupts are perfectly valid ways to bring healers down, not just flat out dps.

 

What about specs built around massive spike damage? Losing their ability to well...spike massive damage to win a fight, what else do they bring?

 

If I as a Rage Jugg can't spike someone down, I can't win a fight then because any other DPS is going to beat my sustained DPS.

[TheNotorius]

I'm not sure about this.

Overall, is a good change, but I agree that maybe they should have left Relics alone. Maybe it's too early to tell if it's good or bad though.

 

With this change, some specs got hurt (like Rage Maras / Jugg), others are now dead (conc Operatives).

[PloGreen]

What about specs built around massive spike damage? Losing their ability to well...spike massive damage to win a fight, what else do they bring?

 

If I as a Rage Jugg can't spike someone down, I can't win a fight then because any other DPS is going to beat my sustained DPS.

 

Point is you should not be relying on spike damage from adrenals. You don't need them to kill people, they just make it easier, and they make it even easier for specific classes. What about classes that have no spike dmg and die easily to burst and adrenals? You need to look at the big picture, not just yourself. 1.2 was silly, and lots of us thought so, and it seems now bioware thinks that burst needs to be brought under control, amen.