1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[Superawesomerman]

Lol complaining about a healer while playing a marauder. Priceless.

 

Unless that healer is a merc, a single mara should not be able to kill a good healer unless they have no resource left.

[Xerain]

Spin the subject and change to attack mode eh? One more time then.

 

I simply pointed out that F Camo, particularly the stealth component, makes no sense and is vastly overpowered relative to the other dps agro dumps in the game.

 

The more I learn about the other perks it offers, the more certain I am that the assertion made above is correct.

 

 

Lol complaining about a healer while playing a marauder. Priceless.

 

I was just wondering? Should i complain that your HOTs are too oped and that you can pillar hump and be perfectly fine to stay alive?

 

Was just wondering, he should be able to do fine against a mara/sent and get away or pull them into a group of people. Learn to grab support.

[Superawesomerman]

I agree more buttons sucks, but this new one would be PvE only. I don't need an agro dump on my hotbar as I don't PvE any more.

 

And you're spot on as to my argument. Sent/Mara is dps. Their job is to kill me. I get it.

 

But why a warrior class with stealth? Thanks for the rational exchange of ideas.

 

no prob! My counter argument is: "why not?" If I might humbly suggest, think of it more like a jedi mind trick. That makes you move faster. And take less damage. Every 45 seconds. Lol.

[Achyllis]

I was just wondering? Should i complain that your HOTs are too oped and that you can pillar hump and be perfectly fine to stay alive?

 

Was just wondering, he should be able to do fine against a mara/sent and get away or pull them into a group of people. Learn to grab support.

 

Force Camo does what? You can have the last word. I am satisfied I have made my point.

[TalkingDinosaur]

All I want is their invincible to be nerfed so they can't be healed while it's active. I just don't understand why a full DPS should have such a powerful defensive ability. :C

[Achyllis]

no prob! My counter argument is: "why not?" If I might humbly suggest, think of it more like a jedi mind trick. That makes you move faster. And take less damage. Every 45 seconds. Lol.

 

Oh and I really enjoyed your guide by the way. Well done.

[Achyllis]

no prob! My counter argument is: "why not?" If I might humbly suggest, think of it more like a jedi mind trick. That makes you move faster. And take less damage. Every 45 seconds. Lol.

 

I suppose it does make as much sense as a guy wielding a dual bladed lightsaber while he burns people down with force lightning and heals me with the dark side of the Force . . .

[HyperThomas]

I have a Sent and a shadow.

Nerfs for shadow are good, but Sentinel needed to be nerfed too, way too much defense for a DPS class.

1.2: Shadows had the slightest advantage over Sentinel/Marauder.

1.3: Sentinels are gonna easily be able beat them, and here is why:

Self healing has been cut in half approximately.

I will take 8% more damage now because of the armour nerf.

Now on my Shadow I get around 36% damage reduction. (other tanks get 51-52%)

Marauders in medium generally get around 26%(recuit gear)-28%(best gear)

Marauders have always had far better defensive CDs than a shadow, no doubt about that.

I would like to point out one very good defensive CD:

Rebuke reduces damage taken by 20% for 30 seconds, giving the Sentinel 46-48% damage reduction. (the only way to counter this is to stop attacking and DOTing for 6 seconds) now with the inability to remove some of the Sentinels DOTs, it is impossible to cloak away for the 6 seconds when facing a Sentinel 1v1. The thing is, it is very very hard to counter Rebuke, but it gives them a massive amount of damage reduction compared to a Shadow, and it also returns damage to the attacker. The cooldown on this ability is 60 seconds, and can talent in the main tree to make it shorter with the use of certain abilities (this is probably irrelevant because Shadow v Sentinel battles do not last more than 30 seconds generally speaking)

-This ability is OP because it is very hard for anyone to counter, without significantly reducing damage output, or making themselves vulnerable in other ways.

-Marauder DOTs need to be removable, simple as that.

-This ability's visual effect needs to be made more obvious, it is very hard to see it sometimes.

 

Now because this ability is near impossible to counter and stop, it gives a Sentinel 46-48% damage reduction for however long any battle is gonna last in this game. (12% more than a Shadow + 20% more Internal/elemental)+ Shadow has no ability like this.

Saber Ward, better than the equivalent Shadow ability because it also provides 25% damage reduction from force and tech attacks.

Force camouflage increased run speed, and you cannot be taken out of it unless DIRECT damage is taken. (Shadow will immediately pop out of cloak if any sort of damage is taken. Which is better? arguable here, if you want perma cloak you go Shadow, if you want the better cloak for a shorter time, you go Sentinel for sure.

Guarded by the Force, better than Resilience. 5 second 99% damage reduction from ALL sources compared to 3 second (5 talented) resistance to only force and tech attacks.

Well... pretty obvious why I will be playing my Sentinel more than my Shadow now.

I have no complaints about the Shadow nerf, they were well needed and I know that, but Sentinel not getting nerfed too? Not sure what BW is thinking.

-Better defensive CDs.

-Better overall defense now (post 1.3)

-Better self healing now (post 1.3)

-Better DPS.

[Superawesomerman]

Oh and I really enjoyed your guide by the way. Well done.

 

Thanks, got tired of sage qq

[Xerain]

I have a Sent and a shadow.

Nerfs for shadow are good, but Sentinel needed to be nerfed too, way too much defense for a DPS class.

1.2: Shadows had the slightest advantage over Sentinel/Marauder.

1.3: Sentinels are gonna easily be able beat them, and here is why:

Self healing has been cut in half approximately.

 

In half on your lightsaber charge that has a 65% proc rate every 4.5 seconds... not like heals from that were amazing.

 

I will take 8% more damage now because of the armour nerf.

Now on my Shadow I get around 36% damage reduction. (other tanks get 51-52%)

 

I know in full BM a sin/shadow sits at 41% armor... that's a 5% armor reduction not 8.

 

Marauders in medium generally get around 26%(recuit gear)-28%(best gear)

 

In full war hero armor i'm sitting at a little over 25% armor.

 

Marauders have always had far better defensive CDs than a shadow, no doubt about that.

 

le sigh. Yeah well a marauder doesn't get the luxury of stealth or such high armor or all the talents that give +% to defenses. My assassin at 14% defense chance and it can go higher if i chose to. that's 9% more then marauders.

 

A tankasin has currently

16% more passive mitigation

9%+ defense chance

45 second cd to resist 100% of tech and force attacks

50% range and melee defense CD for 12 seconds.

passive healing in the form of them attacking

10% heal on a 2 minute CD

and the 12% heal from HD...

 

So yeah their defense isn't comparable to a mara/sent now or after 1.3 right? They're still going to be fine.

 

I would like to point out one very good defensive CD:

Rebuke reduces damage taken by 20% for 30 seconds, giving the Sentinel 46-48% damage reduction. (the only way to counter this is to stop attacking and DOTing for 6 seconds)

 

You need to learn to math.

 

1000 incoming damage 25% armor 20% from rebuke/cop

 

1000*.75=750, 750*.8=600. It will give 40% for up to 30 seconds.

 

now with the inability to remove some of the Sentinels DOTs, it is impossible to cloak away for the 6 seconds when facing a Sentinel 1v1.

 

Actually force shroud removes all the dots and stops them from being applied so yes you can shroud and cloak away and wait out the 6 seconds. Hell you can even shroud vanish and sap them and heal up while everything drops and be ok.

 

The thing is, it is very very hard to counter Rebuke, but it gives them a massive amount of damage reduction compared to a Shadow, and it also returns damage to the attacker. The cooldown on this ability is 60 seconds, and can talent in the main tree to make it shorter with the use of certain abilities (this is probably irrelevant because Shadow v Sentinel battles do not last more than 30 seconds generally speaking)

-This ability is OP because it is very hard for anyone to counter, without significantly reducing damage output, or making themselves vulnerable in other ways.

-Marauder DOTs need to be removable, simple as that.

Marauder dots are cleansable by every healer in the game and force shroud removes them as i stated.

-This ability's visual effect needs to be made more obvious, it is very hard to see it sometimes.

Learn to watch a buff bar. I watch a shadow/sins bar for 3 stacks of HD so i know when to counter it.

 

Now because this ability is near impossible to counter and stop, it gives a Sentinel 46-48% damage reduction for however long any battle is gonna last in this game. (12% more than a Shadow + 20% more Internal/elemental)+ Shadow has no ability like this.

Yeah you just have everything i stated above.

Saber Ward, better than the equivalent Shadow ability because it also provides 25% damage reduction from force and tech attacks.

Force camouflage increased run speed, and you cannot be taken out of it unless DIRECT damage is taken. (Shadow will immediately pop out of cloak if any sort of damage is taken. Which is better? arguable here, if you want perma cloak you go Shadow, if you want the better cloak for a shorter time, you go Sentinel for sure.

Guarded by the Force, better than Resilience. 5 second 99% damage reduction from ALL sources compared to 3 second (5 talented) resistance to only force and tech attacks.

Well... pretty obvious why I will be playing my Sentinel more than my Shadow now.

I have no complaints about the Shadow nerf, they were well needed and I know that, but Sentinel not getting nerfed too? Not sure what BW is thinking.

-Better defensive CDs.

-Better overall defense now (post 1.3)

-Better self healing now (post 1.3)

-Better DPS.

 

No your defensive CD's are still fine and on par and you have a 10m range you can sit in and hit melee with.

No because you'll still be running around with far higher passive mitigation 100% of the time.

Assassin/shadow self healing still does far better then my marauder and i heal other people everytime i berserk. So it might be about the same.

Well you'll have better mitigation to offset this and how good of burst will you have with energized shocks and chain shock?

[AmorphousCro]

Sometime long ago, some braintrust decided that sentinels and marauders would better fit their archetype by having medium armor instead of heavy. So all warrior/knights were start with medium armor until they hit level 10 and picked an advanced class. The evidence is still on live in 1.2 to this day with heavy armor strength drops for levels below 10. Medium armor was an afterthought.

 

The problem with that aesthetic is that they are way too squishy. Heavy armor is valued incorrectly as evidenced by commando and mercenary survivability, but they are ranged so it makes no difference. Tanks have a bonus of 60% armor while in Soresu form. To make mara/sents work in pve, they need alot of cooldowns and tricks so they just don't die instantly under an ops boss' AE. Ranged classes would crush them before you could say Vicious Slash in PvP if they couldn't survive a gap closer.

 

The real problem with Marauders and Sentinels is that they should still wear heavy armor and that armor should have a higher value. The aesthetic decision to make them medium, combined with all the compensation they got for that weakness is why we are here today. Bioware has a big mess to clean up, and will have to make 1000 adjustments to fix one stupid decision made long ago.

[Superawesomerman]

Im unsurprised to find I play the exact same spec, though slightly sad.

[HyperThomas]

No your defensive CD's are still fine and on par and you have a 10m range you can sit in and hit melee with.

No because you'll still be running around with far higher passive mitigation 100% of the time.

Assassin/shadow self healing still does far better then my marauder and i heal other people everytime i berserk. So it might be about the same.

Well you'll have better mitigation to offset this and how good of burst will you have with energized shocks and chain shock?

 

Before you post, I expect you to LEARN your own class! LOL

You have made several mistakes in what you have said... lemme point them out for you.

 

I know in full BM a sin/shadow sits at 41% armor... that's a 5% armor reduction not 8.

Actually, I have lost 8%, as I am sitting at 33.5% damage reduction on test centre (down from 41.9ish)

Yes it seems like a bug because my maths don't support this to be possible, I am just telling you what I saw.

 

In full war hero armor i'm sitting at a little over 25% armor.

You are doing something wrong, I have seen Sentinels in BM with 31.5%.

 

So yeah their defense isn't comparable to a mara/sent now or after 1.3 right? They're still going to be fine.

Rebuke (Can almost always be up and allows the sentinel to sit at 46% damage reduction (in **** gear) FACT: Shadow has no ability like this)

Guarded by the Force (Better than force shroud: FS is resistant to only force and tech attacks and therefore can be countered, GBTF cannot be countered and reduces damage by 99% from ALL sources... also need to talent FS to have it last the same amount of time as GBTF)

Saber Ward (Better than Deflection: They both last the same amount of time, but Saber Ward comes with a 25% DR to force and tech attacks)

Force cloak and force camouflage are pretty much equal, if you are dotted with force cloak, you will pop out, if you are dotted with force camouflage dots will not pop you out + 50% damage reduction and a speed increase for force camouflage.

SO yeah, overall the defensive abilities are better for Sentinel.

 

a marauder doesn't get the luxury of stealth or such high armor

Perma stealth is useless in combat, the only good it does is allows the shadow to get the first hit.

Such high armor? Post 1.3 an average sentinel will have only 4-5% less passive damage reduction.

 

You need to learn to math.

 

1000 incoming damage 25% armor 20% from rebuke/cop

 

1000*.75=750, 750*.8=600. It will give 40% for up to 30 seconds.

ACTUALLY: You need to learn YOUR class and learn MATHS:

Rebuke is added onto overall damage reduction. 26-31% + 20% = 46-51% damage reduction for up to 30 seconds on as little as a 48 second CD (with riposte) (it is the sum) did they teach you that word in school?

 

Actually force shroud removes all the dots

Nope, some Sentinel dots are not removable by any ability. Learn your class please.

 

Marauder dots are cleansable by every healer in the game and force shroud removes them as i stated.

Nope, some Sentinel dots are not removable by any ability. Learn your class please.

 

Learn to watch a buff bar. I watch a shadow/sins bar for 3 stacks of HD so i know when to counter it.

At 3 stacks a shadow glows very bright.

With rebuke there is a very faint red/blue effect that is easily camouflaged into environments.

Advantage? Not much but it is there.

 

Yeah you just have everything i stated above.

Failed to prove me wrong with those last points? HAH. I proved you wrong, and you clearly do not know your class.

 

You are so wrong in so many different ways, you fail to see that a Marauder has better defensive cool downs (there is no arguing that point), you fail to know how rebuke works (an ability of your class), you fail to know about your DOTs (part of your class). What next?

Once again IDGAF about the shadow nerfs, they were needed.

 

But yeah, you still got a good build, and one of the better Marauders on Port Nowhere... (while I was there anyway)

No offense intended by saying your wrong, just having some fun.

Edited June 8, 2012 by HyperThomas

[Crawelc]

Sent/Mara has 2 dots, cauterize and overload saber. They are both burn damage so which one of those 2 is not cleansable? In trying to help our sages out fighting sents we have done multiple duels and never ever had any problem with the dots being cleansed.

[xshadey]

BW just nerfed Biochem, relics etc for PvP. Lets just test how works now. If the insane burst is gone, Marauders should work fine now i think.

 

Tankassin got nerfed and are good news.

Yup pretty much this. So many things have changed. Lets just take it one step at a time. Please actually let it go live before people "unsub"...

[RangerBeo]

PvP arguments like this are just a disgusting waste of time. Too many variables to anyone to truly know which class is better or worse. Most of the time it comes down to player skill, understanding the class you are fighting against and how to counter it. Xinika has already said she will easily defeat any class she fights post 1.3 and will do so using any of the Shadow specs....so where is the problem? The bigger issue to me is making the Shadow weaker in PvE to satisfy people in PvP. Its just an endless stupid cycle in my opinion. Who really cares? Play and have fun...as long as you are still competitive does it really matter that much? Edited June 8, 2012 by RangerBeo

[Smuglebunny]

Sorcs have been nerfed.

 

Assasins have been nerfed.

 

Ops have been nerfed.

 

PT has been nerfed(kinda)

 

The one class that hasnt been, is the Marauder. Cuz its not OP. The last time they touched it they buffed it.

 

And now with ALL the forum crying they could have EASILY nerfed it and chose not to. Because they have the metrics and you dont.

[Darth_Philar]

Sorcs have been nerfed.

 

Assasins have been nerfed.

 

Ops have been nerfed.

 

PT has been nerfed(kinda)

 

The one class that hasnt been, is the Marauder. Cuz its not OP. The last time they touched it they buffed it.

 

And now with ALL the forum crying they could have EASILY nerfed it and chose not to. Because they have the metrics and you dont.

 

They have metrics in a vacuum.

They don't have data on actual implementation since that is impossible to model and must be experienced. After reviewing the player complaints on the forums they chose not to directly nerf Marauders because they nerfed burst which is the primary form of Marauder DPS. Once the burst changes have been implemented and player tested we shall see if Marauders are back in line with every other class.

[Sonofgun]

Frantik pvp players will have multiple high lvl characters at their disposal and they will play the most viable of the moment. More often than not, they will team together. This is what is happening on our server, we have 3-4 heavily geared mara on each team. I can understand them, the class really rocks in WZ. I'm not saying they are unbeatable but considering how high their dps is and their substancial defensive cooldowns, I wish I had one to play.

[dcgregorya]

LOL OK. Yeah a marauder is far more tankier then a class and spec that's walking around with 43% armor around 20% dodge/parry and a ton of self healing that you can pop off quite often...

 

It actually is. For like 5 seconds :-P. I think the burst changes will solve this - maras and sents are going to have to camo/escape as best they can probably long before their target is dead because their burst will be gone.

[Smuglebunny]

They have metrics in a vacuum.

They don't have data on actual implementation since that is impossible to model and must be experienced. After reviewing the player complaints on the forums they chose not to directly nerf Marauders because they nerfed burst which is the primary form of Marauder DPS. Once the burst changes have been implemented and player tested we shall see if Marauders are back in line with every other class.

 

OK I actualy agree with that. In fact I think this is the most intelligent statement on the subject I have heard.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Smuglebunny

[Phlem]

Sorcs have been nerfed.

 

Assasins have been nerfed.

 

Ops have been nerfed.

 

PT has been nerfed(kinda)

 

The one class that hasnt been, is the Marauder. Cuz its not OP. The last time they touched it they buffed it.

 

And now with ALL the forum crying they could have EASILY nerfed it and chose not to. Because they have the metrics and you dont.

 

And we all know metrics are always right!

 

They didn't get nerfed because they have been BW golden child since the get go. If you want to see just how OP they are, go to one of the online damage log parsing sites and see which class's (marauder/sentinal) dominate the top 10.

[Phlem]

It actually is. For like 5 seconds :-P. I think the burst changes will solve this - maras and sents are going to have to camo/escape as best they can probably long before their target is dead because their burst will be gone.

 

Burst damage isn't changing a thing for marauders and sentinals. If anything its increasing their survivability even more and putting an even larger gap in their overall/sustained DPS over other DPS classes.

[Phlem]

They have metrics in a vacuum.

They don't have data on actual implementation since that is impossible to model and must be experienced. After reviewing the player complaints on the forums they chose not to directly nerf Marauders because they nerfed burst which is the primary form of Marauder DPS. Once the burst changes have been implemented and player tested we shall see if Marauders are back in line with every other class.

 

Burst DPS is not the marauders primary form of damage... Burst DPS changes are directed at ops and scoundrels, and to an extent assassins and shadows. But the actual reason for the adrenal change is more then likely because of rated WZ's.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Phlem

[Darth_Philar]

Burst DPS is not the marauders primary form of damage... Burst DPS changes are directed at ops and scoundrels, and to an extent assassins and shadows. But the actual reason for the adrenal change is more then likely because of rated WZ's.

 

Melee DPS is always balanced around periods of chasing and periods of bursting.

While in chase mode melee do very low to non-existent DPS. While in uptime mode they burst to cause the average DPS to be roughly equal to the DPS being done to them by the ranged character they were chasing.

 

So yes, Marauder DPS is based around burst. By nerfing burst Bioware did change Marauders. The only thing left to do is to see how much of an impact the change has, and whether there will be any unintended consequences.