1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[Zepidel]

Melee DPS is always balanced around periods of chasing and periods of bursting.

While in chase mode melee do very low to non-existent DPS. While in uptime mode they burst to cause the average DPS to be roughly equal to the DPS being done to them by the ranged character they were chasing.

 

So yes, Marauder DPS is based around burst. By nerfing burst Bioware did change Marauders. The only thing left to do is to see how much of an impact the change has, and whether there will be any unintended consequences.

 

No its not, marauders (mainly annihilation) are the least burst dependent class in the game with the exception of maybe dps sorcs. No marauder is going to spend extended periods of time chasing, 9s charge, camo, predation, spammable snare, pretty much negates any attempts of kiting on any class except for maybe a lightning specced sorc.

 

The nerf to adrenals is a relative buff for marauders, a fairly significant one too.

[Boarg]

No its not, marauders (mainly annihilation) are the least burst dependent class in the game with the exception of maybe dps sorcs. No marauder is going to spend extended periods of time chasing, 9s charge, camo, predation, spammable snare, pretty much negates any attempts of kiting on any class except for maybe a lightning specced sorc.

 

The nerf to adrenals is a relative buff for marauders, a fairly significant one too.

 

^

 

The relic/adrenal changes will give Marauders/Sentinels further advantage compared to most other PvP dps specs.

[Superawesomerman]

Im confused as to some people's definition of burst. non-stealth melee generally has high sustained output all around and are limited by uptime: they generally dont have huge burst. Stasis is designed the way it is specifically so sentinels wont HAVE burst AND a stun, or you'd see a ton of 3 os -> stasis -> mstrike -> merc, and that would be op as hell.

 

Generally, burst comes when you mix a backloaded cast with a front loaded instant. The only thing that qualifies is masterstrike / ravage, and unless you spec combat its not reliable in the slightest.

 

Edit: so I guess combat is bursty, especially with zen, but not watchman.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Superawesomerman

[Invictusthetaru]

Im confused as to some people's definition of burst. non-stealth melee generally has high sustained output all around and are limited by uptime: they generally dont have huge burst. Stasis is designed the way it is specifically so sentinels wont HAVE burst AND a stun, or you'd see a ton of 3 os -> stasis -> mstrike -> merc, and that would be op as hell.

 

Generally, burst comes when you mix a backloaded cast with a front loaded instant. The only thing that qualifies is masterstrike / ravage, and unless you spec combat its not reliable in the slightest.

 

Just saw you posted in this thread. Wanted to say hey and <3. Let's make sure we get our mains onto the same server.

[Superawesomerman]

Just saw you posted in this thread. Wanted to say hey and <3. Let's make sure we get our mains onto the same server.

 

yo! Lulz, I was hoping for swiftsure, since I doubt fatman will be open. Your bro gonna play sage or sent for rated?

Edited June 8, 2012 by Superawesomerman

[Invictusthetaru]

yo! Lulz, I was hoping for swiftsure, since I doubt fatman will be open. Your bro gonna play sage or sent for rated?

 

Not sure yet, but we need to be on the same team. I have no republic guild affiliations on that server anymore.

[Astarica]

Of course Marauders are a burst DPS class in PvP and are affected, probably quite severely by the adrenal/relic change. Relic lasts 20 seconds and adrenal lasts 15 seconds. If you can kill someone in 15 seconds that is burst and Marauders can certainly do that. Or do people think an Op pops an adrenal and kills 3 guys in 15 seconds and that's burst DPS?

 

For all the crying about low TTK, if you can kill an equivalently geared/skilled player in 15 seconds 1 on 1, that's a very fast kill. That'd put you on pace for 60 kills/game if it was at all sustainable in a 15 minute game, and this is generally more kills than your entire team put together in the average 15 minute game. The duration of an adrenal is more than enough for any class to get their full DPS rotation off and as long as you didn't die in 15 seconds (Marauders rarely have to worry about that), that's your burst DPS.

[AstralProjection]

No its not, marauders (mainly annihilation) are the least burst dependent class in the game with the exception of maybe dps sorcs. No marauder is going to spend extended periods of time chasing, 9s charge, camo, predation, spammable snare, pretty much negates any attempts of kiting on any class except for maybe a lightning specced sorc.

 

The nerf to adrenals is a relative buff for marauders, a fairly significant one too.

 

Annihilation Marauders have a 12s charge if they spec into it, and they don't usually waste focus on leg slash anymore (though it is still available) because of the change to Cauterize in 1.2. Any marauder using Predation for Anti-Kiting in anything other than a duel is braindead. There are far more important times to use Predation, that actually benefit your team, since, you know, it's a team buff.

 

Basically your whole argument that they're unkiteable revolves around their gap closer and their snare, and their gap closer is most effective when they sink several talent points into it to make it have no range, and lower the CD by 3 seconds.

 

The problem lies more with people not using common sense to kite, like leaving snares on friendly targets instead of cleansing them, when mobility is God in PVP. Aside from the gap closer, Annihilation marauders are slow.

 

Combat/Carnage, on the other hand, they're the closest thing around to unkiteable, but sacrifice survivability to do it.

[Astarica]

Annihilation Marauders have a 12s charge if they spec into it, and they don't usually waste focus on leg slash anymore (though it is still available) because of the change to Cauterize in 1.2. Any marauder using Predation for Anti-Kiting in anything other than a duel is braindead. There are far more important times to use Predation, that actually benefit your team, since, you know, it's a team buff.

 

Basically your whole argument that they're unkiteable revolves around their gap closer and their snare, and their gap closer is most effective when they sink several talent points into it to make it have no range, and lower the CD by 3 seconds.

 

The problem lies more with people not using common sense to kite, like leaving snares on friendly targets instead of cleansing them, when mobility is God in PVP. Aside from the gap closer, Annihilation marauders are slow.

 

Combat/Carnage, on the other hand, they're the closest thing around to unkiteable, but sacrifice survivability to do it.

 

Marauders are hard to kite in general but hard doesn't mean you give up, because standing toe to toe against a Marauder pretty much guaranteeds a loss, even for a Tankasin.

 

No matter what kiting method you use you'll see the Marauder somehow come back every time, but you got to know at some point he's not going to come back, or be forced to burn a major CD to deal with it. If you can make him burn Force Camo to close the gap you now have a much better chance of beating him. Now that's not to say kiting is your sole focus but most people fight Marauder seem to go like KB -> Maruder Charge -> Give up and facetank.

[AstralProjection]

Marauders are hard to kite in general but hard doesn't mean you give up, because standing toe to toe against a Marauder pretty much guaranteeds a loss, even for a Tankasin.

 

No matter what kiting method you use you'll see the Marauder somehow come back every time, but you got to know at some point he's not going to come back, or be forced to burn a major CD to deal with it. If you can make him burn Force Camo to close the gap you now have a much better chance of beating him. Now that's not to say kiting is your sole focus but most people fight Marauder seem to go like KB -> Maruder Charge -> Give up and facetank.

 

QFT. Let's not forget you can toss some skills backwards as you run away in this game. There are plenty of specs that can deal damage while kiting.

 

I know the one way that never works to kite a Marauder, and it's facetanking them, or standing there trying to heal through it. Go hump a pillar or bring them back to the rest of your team.

[Akharus]

I don't get it... Marauders aren't hard to kill. They are squishy.

 

Do you guys just not know how to move/kite? Even if you're melee... just move better. Really. It's not that hard. They hit like trucks but have glass jaws. If you're ranged, you have no excuse - you should be able to kite them all day long.

[Xerain]

Before you post, I expect you to LEARN your own class! LOL

You have made several mistakes in what you have said... lemme point them out for you.

 

 

Actually, I have lost 8%, as I am sitting at 33.5% damage reduction on test centre (down from 41.9ish)

Yes it seems like a bug because my maths don't support this to be possible, I am just telling you what I saw.

 

Ok first of all

 

I will take 8% more damage now because of the armour nerf.

Now on my Shadow I get around 36% damage reduction. (other tanks get 51-52%)

 

I was just going straight up off of what you said So thank you very much there.

 

You are doing something wrong, I have seen Sentinels in BM with 31.5%.

 

This is a down right lie as a sent/mara sitting in full BM gear i was sitting at 24%...

 

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n44/xerain/Screenshot_2012-06-08_13_28_08_681627.jpg

 

BOOM all 140 armorings just for you buddy, wearing rakata gloves because i traded in my BM gloves for WH.

 

Rebuke (Can almost always be up and allows the sentinel to sit at 46% damage reduction (in **** gear) FACT: Shadow has no ability like this)

Guarded by the Force (Better than force shroud: FS is resistant to only force and tech attacks and therefore can be countered, GBTF cannot be countered and reduces damage by 99% from ALL sources... also need to talent FS to have it last the same amount of time as GBTF)

Saber Ward (Better than Deflection: They both last the same amount of time, but Saber Ward comes with a 25% DR to force and tech attacks)

Force cloak and force camouflage are pretty much equal, if you are dotted with force cloak, you will pop out, if you are dotted with force camouflage dots will not pop you out + 50% damage reduction and a speed increase for force camouflage.

SO yeah, overall the defensive abilities are better for Sentinel.

 

 

Perma stealth is useless in combat, the only good it does is allows the shadow to get the first hit.

Such high armor? Post 1.3 an average sentinel will have only 4-5% less passive damage reduction.

 

No stealth adds such a far more valuable stategic advantage of being able to attack who you want when you want how you want that makes it so powerfule.

 

ACTUALLY: You need to learn YOUR class and learn MATHS:

Rebuke is added onto overall damage reduction. 26-31% + 20% = 46-51% damage reduction for up to 30 seconds on as little as a 48 second CD (with riposte) (it is the sum) did they teach you that word in school?

 

Actually I've seen easymode, one of the biggest contributors to the sith warrior site, who does a ton of the math and all that stuff for mara say that it worked the way i've said it on the marauder forums many times. So please sir.

 

No one takes that crappy riposte talent anyways, it's a waste and you can pull far greater value from somewhere else.

 

See my link for mara armoring values.

 

 

Nope, some Sentinel dots are not removable by any ability. Learn your class please.

 

All healing classes can cleanse them and force shroud removes them. Please learn the game sir.

 

Nope, some Sentinel dots are not removable by any ability. Learn your class please.

 

All healing classes can cleanse them and force shroud removes them. Please learn the game sir.

 

At 3 stacks a shadow glows very bright.

With rebuke there is a very faint red/blue effect that is easily camouflaged into environments.

Advantage? Not much but it is there.

 

It doesn't matter learn to watch the buff bar of your opponent and their health and resources, it will help you determine what attacks are incoming when much better.

 

 

Failed to prove me wrong with those last points? HAH. I proved you wrong, and you clearly do not know your class.

 

The only thing you proved is that you don't know crap about the game and you're a sub par player.

 

You are so wrong in so many different ways, you fail to see that a Marauder has better defensive cool downs (there is no arguing that point), you fail to know how rebuke works (an ability of your class), you fail to know about your DOTs (part of your class). What next?

Once again IDGAF about the shadow nerfs, they were needed.

 

Actually i was saying assassin is very comparable to a marauder so GG.

 

I know exactly how rebuke works, you just don't know how the formulas for damage work and you think it's th 20% ontop of when <see statement above>

 

What don't i know about my dots? Many posts in these forums and a few threads have stated very clearly they're cleanseable just like pretty much everything else in this game.

 

But yeah, you still got a good build, and one of the better Marauders on Port Nowhere... (while I was there anyway)

No offense intended by saying your wrong, just having some fun.

 

Actually i know my stuff and assassin is very comparable to a marauder but with far better utility. I didn't go and roll an assassin for nothing, they have far less weaknesses then a marauder while in tank spec, do comparable damage, have awesome utility, stealth, great defense, good burst, a lot of self healing (Too much self healing was my only problem with the class). But the class is boring to play sadly enough.

[Astarica]

So far as Tankasin versus Marauder goes, Tankasin is overpowered defensively and Marauder is overpowered offensively. Marauders are stronger in the average range because most people have no idea how to counter offense and any defensive weaknesses (and Marauder don't really have any) is easily covered if your enemy is dead.

 

At the high end most offensive abilities can be countered or at least neutralized, but there is no way to counter overpowered defense. The Tankasin simply doesn't die easily if at all while he can counter/neutralize most of his enemy's DPS. That said, we're obviously losing some of our overpowered defensive abilities in 1.3, so maybe Marauder should lose some of their offense too.

[Xerain]

Sent/Mara has 2 dots, cauterize and overload saber. They are both burn damage so which one of those 2 is not cleansable? In trying to help our sages out fighting sents we have done multiple duels and never ever had any problem with the dots being cleansed.

 

They're cleansable, i was helping a sorc friend identify when he should use his cleanse and when he shouldn't the other day and what our debuffs on him looked like.

 

 

It actually is. For like 5 seconds :-P. I think the burst changes will solve this - maras and sents are going to have to camo/escape as best they can probably long before their target is dead because their burst will be gone.

 

No it's not. C'mon now. Tankasins in dps gear are pretty great when it comes to tankiness ontop of the damage they do.

 

And we all know metrics are always right!

 

They didn't get nerfed because they have been BW golden child since the get go. If you want to see just how OP they are, go to one of the online damage log parsing sites and see which class's (marauder/sentinal) dominate the top 10.

 

There's only 8 classes in this game... doesn't everyone dominate the top 10 then?

 

No its not, marauders (mainly annihilation) are the least burst dependent class in the game with the exception of maybe dps sorcs. No marauder is going to spend extended periods of time chasing, 9s charge, camo, predation, spammable snare, pretty much negates any attempts of kiting on any class except for maybe a lightning specced sorc.

 

The nerf to adrenals is a relative buff for marauders, a fairly significant one too.

 

12 second charge sir... Also spammable isn't quite right as it costs two rage, more like 100% uptime snare. Kinda a difference there.

 

Im confused as to some people's definition of burst. non-stealth melee generally has high sustained output all around and are limited by uptime: they generally dont have huge burst. Stasis is designed the way it is specifically so sentinels wont HAVE burst AND a stun, or you'd see a ton of 3 os -> stasis -> mstrike -> merc, and that would be op as hell.

 

Generally, burst comes when you mix a backloaded cast with a front loaded instant. The only thing that qualifies is masterstrike / ravage, and unless you spec combat its not reliable in the slightest.

 

Edit: so I guess combat is bursty, especially with zen, but not watchman.

 

YEAH WOO I CAN RAVAGE INTO AN ANNIHILATE ONCE EVERY 30 SECONDS!!! It will put out 7k+damage in the end hit + annihilate btw...

[Xerain]

yo! Lulz, I was hoping for swiftsure, since I doubt fatman will be open. Your bro gonna play sage or sent for rated?

 

Who else is hoping for swiftsure for xfers?!?!? I kinda am.

[Xerain]

Marauders are hard to kite in general but hard doesn't mean you give up, because standing toe to toe against a Marauder pretty much guaranteeds a loss, even for a Tankasin.

 

No matter what kiting method you use you'll see the Marauder somehow come back every time, but you got to know at some point he's not going to come back, or be forced to burn a major CD to deal with it. If you can make him burn Force Camo to close the gap you now have a much better chance of beating him. Now that's not to say kiting is your sole focus but most people fight Marauder seem to go like KB -> Maruder Charge -> Give up and facetank.

 

That statement is soo TRUE... it's pretty dumb.

[Superawesomerman]

Actually i know my stuff and assassin is very comparable to a marauder but with far better utility. I didn't go and roll an assassin for nothing, they have far less weaknesses then a marauder while in tank spec, do comparable damage, have awesome utility, stealth, great defense, good burst, a lot of self healing (Too much self healing was my only problem with the class). But the class is boring to play sadly enough.

 

This. Xerain is like my evil twin or something.

[Astarica]

There's an additional problem with both Marauder and Tankasin in the sense that the best way to counter both classes (if you're not one of them) is let them kill you. This is because both classes forces a no-win situation in terms of WZ objectives against any other class that's not themselves.

 

If we restrict ourselves to just DPS, you want to kill the guy who is the easiest kill while doing high DPS. We can basically multiply a class's DPS times ease of killing (higher = easier to kill) and the highest number guys are the ones you should kill first. On a scale of 1-10, Tankasin might be 8 (DPS) X 1 (ease of killing) = 8. Marauder might be 9 (DPS) X 2 (ease of killing) = 18. A Sniper or Pyro would be 9 (DPS) X 5 (ease of killing) = 45, and a Deception Assassin could be 8X10 = 80.

 

While you can argue where exactly those numbers fall in, you can see that Tankasin and Marauders are way at the bottom in terms of desireable DPS to kill (most due to they're so hard to kill). This means even if you kill them, you still lose the WZ because the effort it takes to kill one of them could've been used to take out a Sniper + PT which would certainly help your team far more than taking out one of either character.

 

And yet if you play it exactly correct and always go for the high DPS low survivality guys first, this would mean you'd see a Marauder ora Tankasin smash your face all the time because you've to kill the PT/Sniper first and that'd be depressing too. But you'd lose even worse if you tried to go for either of them first, because the 2 PTs that didn't die will have no problem smashing your face. Either way, you're screwed.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Astarica

[UGLYMRJ]

There's an additional problem with both Marauder and Tankasin in the sense that the best way to counter both classes (if you're not one of them) is let them kill you. This is because both classes forces a no-win situation in terms of WZ objectives against any other class that's not themselves.

 

If we restrict ourselves to just DPS, you want to kill the guy who is the easiest kill while doing high DPS. We can basically multiply a class's DPS times ease of killing (higher = easier to kill) and the highest number guys are the ones you should kill first. On a scale of 1-10:

 

Class DPS Ease of killing Desireabilty to kill

Tankasin 8

 

Thanks for the lulz....

 

Another great method when going up against those classes is /uninstall

[Astarica]

Thanks for the lulz....

 

Another great method when going up against those classes is /uninstall

 

I accidentally posted halfway but not being able to beat either class in WZ objectives doesn't necessarily mean you can't win 1on1, it's just that the effort you'd need to beat them 1on1 is never worth it in WZ objectives (because everyone else is way easier to kill).

 

You can actually neutralize both classes effectively if there's a guy willing to be bait and just repeatedly die, since Marauders and especially Tankasin don't actually kill people faster than say, a Pyro or a Sniper. So while the bait is dying repeatedly your own DPS should be getting comparable kill rates with the Tankasin/Marauder off their back. You really should get used to ignoring both classes if you're not one of them if at all possible, not because they're weak and can't kill you, but that you can't kill them anyway so you might as well cut your losses and move on immediately.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Astarica

[Annex]

Fungi, for weeks every post you have made has been about how Sentinels and Marauders need to be nerfed. Every single post. For weeks we have been telling you that you are incorrect. We have told you how to beat us down the point now that we the Sentinel players have written and posted entire guides explaining how best to kill us.

 

Sentinels are 100% fine. They are not overpowered, they are not underpowered, they simply require someone to use their CD's properly to stop our own CD's.

 

This game will never go back to Sorcerers and Sages owning everyone in PVP. Never.

Says the "unbiased" sentinel player who posts his rhetoric in every thread too.

 

I don't think marauders are mssively overpowered btw, a little yes, but not terribly. Just find it funny that you constantly say other people have an agenda / vested interests when its absolutely obvious your own bias is at least as bad.

 

Tank sins needed a change, they got it.

Op healers needed a change, they got it.

 

Sage healers need a minor change (upwards) , they didnt get it.

Marauders need a minor change (downwards) they didnt get it.

 

Bioware's legendary "metrics" are not telling the whole story and people who say I told you so now.... wait. Rated will tell the truth.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Annex

[Superawesomerman]

Dont forget mercs, they need luvin.

 

They should get cybertech as a free tradeskill, rofl.

[HurricaneXXIV]

I don't think Mara's, PTs or other classes will be touched much until they see the consequences of taking out biochem. If TTK goes up both classes become less effective similar to pre 1.2.

[Astarica]

Dont forget mercs, they need luvin.

 

They should get cybertech as a free tradeskill, rofl.

 

Mercs work well as bait against Marauders.

[Astarica]

I don't think Mara's, PTs or other classes will be touched much until they see the consequences of taking out biochem. If TTK goes up both classes become less effective similar to pre 1.2.

 

Yeah, that's why I'm not convinced the sky is falling yet. Adrenal/relic always favor the strongest calsses (decreasing TTK for everyone benefits the strongest guy because then it's quicker to get out of combat).