Goretzu Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 If this game isn't an MMO, neither is WOW. It has all of the same things WOW has plus better questing. This, once again, seems to be a "I played a dancer in SWG and want to play something similar in TOR!!" type of thread to me. People coming from one failed SW MMO wanting more of the same and then complaining because they don't get it. As to why they want this game to fail so bad.... well, their baby, SWG failed, so maybe they want this one to fail too. Most of the things people suggest to add to SWTOR (from SWG) would actually improve SWTOR. Take your "dancer" example, I don't think it's possible to do that, however a serious weakness in SWTOR is the pointlessness of cantinas (they are only used for the 5 seconds to log off or log in). They are not a social hub at all, and were much more so in SWG. So would making cantinas better somehow make SWTOR "fail"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Most of the things people suggest to add to SWTOR (from SWG) would actually improve SWTOR. Take your "dancer" example, I don't think it's possible to do that, however a serious weakness in SWTOR is the pointlessness of cantinas (they are only used for the 5 seconds to log off or log in). They are not a social hub at all, and were much more so in SWG. So would making cantinas better somehow make SWTOR "fail"? Don't bother yourself, Goretzu. These guys have it in their mind that SWTOR is perfect and we're all just grabbing complaints from thin air because we're upset about SWG. We, of course, know better. People complain because there's plenty to complain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Hey, stop putting those words in my mouth or I will sue you for harrassment! Seriously though.. I never said there are no problems. Stop trying to say I am saying that, sheesh. It seems personal attacks is the only way you can debate. I wonder if it's even worth it to continue. Woot, a bit of overreaction. Next time dont write stuff that indicate what ive written and those observations wont be necessary. Okay, I can at least be man enough to admit one mistake. My memory was wrong on the timeframe being given. I remembered them saying 'by the end of the first year' in one interview yet my google-fu has not been able to dig up that exact quote. So I will give you that one. Most of people that looked into it came up with 2 year timeframe. Might be longer though. Still though, saying I am clueless on standard business practices because of this again reeks waaaaay too much of personal attacks and really, what is the worth of adding it? If you knew so much about running an MMO, wouldn't you be.. well... running an MMO instead of discussing on an internet forum of one? I never shut down doors for possibilities, so who knows, i might be running MMO someday. But no, ATM im running something else. /golfclap for taking a quote out of context there. They are just saying active sub numbers are a difficult number to define and especially to read without having all information (information they do have) Nothing is out of context, they admit "creative sub padding" for their reports. Blizzard admitted counting pay2play customers from Asia who had to pay by the minute/hour and did not pay a once a month amount as part of their 12 million subscribers number, just saying. Never mentioned WoW or Blizzard, but yah, they also employ creative sub reporting. From the time they confirmed how they count subs i consider their numbers padded also. WoW never had 12m subscribers. I agree with that, past amount of subs are not important for a game's future, current amount are. It matters if current state is much worse then past state. It indicates measures for cutting costs because game is performing below expected. I agree with what you say, but you are missing a lot of other customer demographics as well like: - People with running subs but no time to play right now because of other reasons then wanting to quit the game - People who play an amount of time well below the average curve (like 1 day a week, if that) but have the money to spend on a subscription based game they like - People with two active subscriptions but can only play one at a time - etc.. Number of subs game has is number of subs. No way around that. You may talk about projections and excpectations, but then those are just that - projections and expectations. The gap between concurrent active users and subscriptions is not just filled with people waiting for their sub to run out. No, but past experiences from other MMOs indicate certan correlation between number of concurrent users and subs. I admit, the 30 days free were given to pad their last quarterly numbers as well as keep people in while stuff got fixed. But you know what: I kind of like an MMO that is willing to invest in that loss of revenue to keep people in. I mean, looking on the bright side of it, they didn't HAVE to give us all those 30 extra days and could have just really bled us dry of our money without giving anything in return and just see how far the sinking ship could go without further development or support cash put in. Pretty much nobody, especially EA, throws away money. It was planned and execcuted with certain goal in mind. Though it seems that it failed so further actions were taken. It's not like 1.3 and 1.4 Development stopped while they had no income from the game for 30 days. Bioware kept investing despite getting no revenue. Something about standard business practices and apparently not understanding them comes to mind.. Its investment that wonr pay off im afraid. You can also write it off as marketing costs, or whatever you like, but gigng away 30 days had specific purpose. By the number of concurrent users its quite obvious it didnt fulfill that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) And nobody but them built all the hype. How long was NDA in effect? Oh yeah. The NDA is still in effect. What are we getting in 1.4? 1.5? Edited June 4, 2012 by mattgyver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Yet another thread propped up to a bunch of pages by the same 10-12 people talking about how the "sky is falling". Things around here never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Don't bother yourself, Goretzu. These guys have it in their mind that SWTOR is perfect and we're all just grabbing complaints from thin air because we're upset about SWG. We, of course, know better. People complain because there's plenty to complain about. +1 /support Goretzu. This thread isn't 100% hyperbole. The unsub trend is looking like its nasty. (notice i said it's not 100%, I'm allowing for some doomsaying and hating) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Yet another thread propped up to a bunch of pages by the same 10-12 people talking about how the "sky is falling". Things around here never change. Yup, sky is still falling, just waiting for the moment it hits the ground +1 /support Goretzu. This thread isn't 100% hyperbole. The unsub trend is looking like its nasty. (notice i said it's not 100%, I'm allowing for some doomsaying and hating) We will continue good work with your blessing! And nobody but them built all the hype. How long was NDA in effect? Oh yeah. The NDA is still in effect. What are we getting in 1.4? 1.5? Launch is specific moment for MMO, not knowing about 1,4 or 1,5 has very little weight compareed to pre-lauch stuff. Edited June 4, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreySix Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Gear looks terrible and not very starwarsy... Classes being locked per faction this is one of my biggest gripes... where is my imperial trooper? only the jedi/sith should have been locked. Concur with those two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaabyy Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Concur with those two. I really hate my Juggernauts Rakata gear design. I dont want to look like a robot. I wanted to look like an armoured Sith Warrior. Additionally, I agree that only the Warr/Knight Inqisitor/Consular should have been faction based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Yup, sky is still falling, just waiting for the moment it hits the ground truthfully the skybox may not hit the ground. This game may go on, with little changes made to overall structure, pulling along with the same Status Quo Inquisition crowd for years. The mediocrity and unrealized potential of a SWTOR that was basically given up on by the company would be a tragedy. I don't want to see this game become WAR, but I also can't play something that is substandard just because I hope it gets better. Running the time out on my subs now, but I hope that in 6 months or a Year this game is not having update 3.1: Legacy add-on #6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Yup, sky is still falling, just waiting for the moment it hits the ground We will continue good work with your blessing! Launch is specific moment for MMO, not knowing about 1,4 or 1,5 has very little weight compareed to pre-lauch stuff. I know the NDA is not actually still up lol. There should be some idea what the long term actual plans are for the game as conveyed to the customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katahn Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 It would be nice if Smugglers, Bounty Hunters, Agents (SiS or Imperial), and Troopers (Imperial or Republic) could have been truly cross-faction classes. However since they are mechnically identical to classes that already exist the only difference would be story and for story we're talking about adding 4 stories (2 to each side) - increasing the amount of class-specific material by 50%. As nice as that would be I understand and appreciate story-based limitations existing. What I do dislike are the loading screens. They aren't bad when I am zoning into my ship, but if I am landing on Belsavis, Voss, or worst of all Corellia they can get very excessive (multiple minutes long). This is the real reason I've stopped trying to run flashpoints since getting to the low-40s. The load times make any trip off world something I don't do unless I genuinely have to do it. I wish it were easier to keep my companions all up to par gear-wise. Its pretty easy to keep one companion on-par for gear, two can be done with some expense, more than that becomes prohibitively expsensive (assuming you can even find appropriate gear for sale on the GTN of course). As it stands the gameplay "feels" like I need to pick one preferred companion and leave the rest on my ship running crew missions and that detracts from the benefit of having multiple companions. By the time I could have them all geared I'm looking at running dailies solo or doing FP/Ops content where I won't be using them at all. PvP and Space Missions are discussed as an alternative to doing world arcs - but in my experience this only works if you are able to get gear somehow for when it becomes time to do your class quests. On their own, quests aside, neither of these awards gear and doing just class quests would not give sufficient rewards to stay on-par with your level gear-wise. Or at least I can't do it, maybe its just me. I really wish space missions were a fully realized form of content - where we are in our ship and our team or ops group are all in theirs. Where the FP or the Ops was all about true Star Wars combat. I'd love a flashpoint or an operation based around something like the Death Star battle, or any of the space battles from the prequel trilogies. I wish legacy race unlocks were "players choice" - I hit 50 give me one legacy race unlock of my choice. If I level a human but really want to play a Chiss Jedi then once my human hits 50 let me pick "Chiss" for a legacy unlock. Either that or please reduce the cost to something lower than 1.5 million credits and I'll buy the ones I like. I love SWTOR, but there are a lot of little things wrong with it. None of them individually is really a problem but collectively they do take some of the joy in levelling alts away. Unlike when I first started playing I can see a point in the future where I'll be done playing and not interested in levelling alts. I've levelled a Sith Assassin to 50, and I've almost got a Juggernaut there now too. I don't think I'm going to want to do an Agent or Hunter any time soon and expect that I might play through the Republic non-class stories once or twice and then I'll be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreySix Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I really wish space missions were a fully realized form of content - where we are in our ship and our team or ops group are all in theirs. Where the FP or the Ops was all about true Star Wars combat. I'd love a flashpoint or an operation based around something like the Death Star battle, or any of the space battles from the prequel trilogies. This reminds me of Wing Commander: Privateer, wherein I had to run some deadly blockades and could hire a mercenary to assist. In an MMO, that would be killer. Have your OPS group run a blockade in order to smuggle goods or even conduct a raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 This reminds me of Wing Commander: Privateer, wherein I had to run some deadly blockades and could hire a mercenary to assist. Mmmm Great game!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Well, if they dont mean what they talk about thats their fault. If by saying "we are going after WoW" they mean something completely different, well, not peoples problem. Prove that they didnt lay off 1/2 of their staff and they are confident in kepping 500k subs (over any period they need to to break even). Errm prove that they did ... is the counter I guess.. unless of course you are much closer to the company than your letting on here.... otherwise you are simply reaching . Its common place after a game launches and beds in that staff reductions happen... do you know how many were actually contracted and were expecting it.. no you are simply guesing based on how you feel... I can't think where they stated they expected 12mill subs in first few months or that half of their team was out the door.. what I saw over the years waiting for the game was that they wanted to try and compete with other MMO and become one of the biggest... which I guess they can say they did, based on box sales impact at launch....but unless you can link some some stuff here I think as I said.. your simply reaching based on your emotion. Edited June 4, 2012 by Bloodstealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temad Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 How did it come to this? They tried to be smarter than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexasoul Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 @OP Because SWG has sunk like... 2 times, or more.. in, how many years again? It took the newest iteration of the Star Wars MMO to manage to shut it down. Yes.. I can totally believe you... LOL.........where did you get that idea from? Lucas Arts shut down SWG because they would only allow one MMO to carry their precious brand name at any given time. That means, that if Lucas Arts decides to bank on a MMO with another developer that looks more promising than SWTOR, that SWTOR would be shut down as soon as the new game was ready. SWG bled subs because of the foolish and arrogant decisions made by SOE. "You don't REALLY want in-depth game play, you want our NEW GAME ENHANCEMENTS!" Foolish and arrogant decisions are also being made by BW, including ripping out content that was in beta, that enticed players to buy the game and then find out it was removed the hard way. Just ask Square Enix what happens to an MMO when the producers are given a god complex and compete power over the project instead of listening to alpha/beta testers and players before launch. Add in a completely incompetent publisher in EA and you have a recipe for disaster. To those who are comparing the launch of WoW to SWTOR: What competition did WoW have back then? Barely any if you knew the playing field of MMOs at that time. Blizzard had the time and fan base from previous RTS games to make some mistakes and recover from them. In the here and now, the MMO market is crowded, to draw people away from other games and get them to stay means you have to offer them all the comforts of their other MMO home. If they aren't happy, there are alternative games to play now, unlike years ago. I agree with the OP that the Massively part of this game is missing. Instances everywhere, four person groups, narrow corridors called "planets", the list goes on and on. Plus, when there is a large gathering of people the lag is unbearable. I've played EQ2, LOTRO, WoW, Rift, FF14, and GW, some of those for many years in a row. Never has any MMO felt more restrictive and linear than SWTOR. It should have been single player KOTOR 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Wannabe Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Bioware made a mistake by opening to many servers and they are paying for it. They are working as fast as they can to solve that problem but things take time. (Imo too long) However, whats done is done and can't be changed. All that Bioware can do is look forward and learn from their mistakes. They certainly don't need thread, after thread saying the same thing over and over again. Trust me. Bioware hears you and understand what the community are asking for but it takes time. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasgallant Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. ^this.... has been said by very intelligent people since Beta..and yet bioware refuses to listen (ironic you are asking on the forums for them to not listen to people on the forums) and anyone who reads it calls you a fanboi or something equally as silly but for the record.. i fully agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. 6+ hour queues were usustainable. Servers that HAD 6+ hour queues are now Light (all of the time). What you're claiming is spurious to say the least, they opened too many servers, but they needed a LOT of those orginal servers at the time........ however the reason population has dropped since is largely down to the flaws in the game. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. Huh? You mean Ilum? They advatised that a LOT before release, going for the RvR/PvP player...... it's not the players fault it was utterly pants. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. If they want SWTOR to have 300,000-500,000 subs they should do just that, if they want SWTOR to have more subs than that they need to DO more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. As Gallant pointed out, it's extremely ironic to come on the forum to appeal to the developers to listen less to fans on the forum. Edited June 4, 2012 by Dezzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasgallant Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 As Gallant pointed out, it's extremely ironic to appeal to the developers to listen to fans on the forum less, on the forum. i thought it was kinda ironically funny.. but hey...i agree they should listen to us less and run the game the way they were planning:P assuming they werent planning to **** it all up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSaberMaster Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more servers now. Now they have too many servers. Bioware made a mistake listening to the forum posters who demanded more PvP content now. So they released new content before it was ready. What Bioware needs to do is stop listening to the forums so much and focus on making the game they've been developing all along. Some will like it. Some won't. That's just how it goes. Yep. Bioware should just ignore all the forum posters. All the gripes, complaints, suggestions, praises, thank you's, bug lists, and moans. Matter of fact, just delete the whole dern forum since there would be no use for it since the developers shouldn't listen to people. But I'm betting that you only meant that they should only ignore the negative and the complaints, no matter whether they are there to help or hurt the game, and keep all the praises and *** kissing, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajhiim Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I went to play my former MMORPG last night because a new planet area opened up and I wanted to take a tour and get one of the new hover vehicles from one of the missions there. So I logged in, took care of a few things on the planet I was on, hopped in my interceptor and flew into orbit. Once in orbit, I checked the map and set up a waypoint for the new planet, fired up the thrusters, and set out for the 20-30 minute flight to the planet through open PVP space. Unfortunately, when I landed on this new planet that I was so interested in seeing, it had entered the night portion of the day/night cycle, and everything was dark. As I flew around for a little bit trying to look at some of the city architecture and environments, all I could see were shadows and dark splotches everywhere. I also knew that the day/night cycles last an entirety of about 5-6 hours, and since I was in the dark portion, the sun wouldn't be up for another 1-2 hours. So I logged out. No point in playing. Everything was dark and I couldn't see much of anything. Moral of the Story: No thanks on the day/night cycles in SWTOR, please. What game is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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