What makes a MMO an MMO and how does SW:TOR stack up in this regard?

[Caspian_Rho]

SWTOR meets every definition of an MMO, the people that say it isn't an MMO are trying to make the argument that whatever aspect of the game they don't like disqualifies it from MMO status. It is the equivalent of one soccer player telling another player on their team "your not a real soccer player".

 

MMO - massively multiplayer online.... the Hero Engine can't handle more than 8 people on-screen at once really. There is NOTHING massive about this game apart from the blind fanbois who can't tell a dead turkey from a golden hen...

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

A virtual believable world with dynamic NPCs and a high player population, different playstyles, non combat playstyles, meaningful crafting, minigames, housing, world storyline, worlds changing, players able to change the gameworld, secrets and eastereggs.

[stumpysez]

When I first started playing SW:TOR, I found myself feeling kind of awkward playing through the game. On the one hand, I enjoyed the quests and the single-player aspect of it. But I never felt any encouragement from the NPCs to group with any of the other people around me. They kept telling me that I was the savior of the planet and went on and on about how many great things I had done, and they never mentioned the other people playing the game. So why would I think about them?

 

Strangely, this simultaneously edged me away from multiplayer just by not putting me in the right mindset, while at the same time it made the single-player less enjoyable, because their accolades rang false. How could I be the singular savior or Balmorra when there's a Bounty Hunter three levels higher than me standing 5 feet away turning in the quest that I'm about to start? When I'm playing Shepherd in Mass Effect, it sounds perfectly natural to be told that I'm the only hope of the galaxy, but should I really be told that when I have four guildmates who have already outlevelled me?

 

I think the SPRPG writing of BIoware, which is exemplary and I dearly love, has subtly gotten in the way of creating a multiplayer culture. I know that part of their design philosophy was to set this game apart from others by creating a more epic feel for your character... but I just don't think they thought through what feeling this would create in the game world. I'd like to see their considerable writing talent turned into innovative ways to creating more of a multiplayer FEEL to the story as it expands.

 

For me, I put the game down a few months ago, but I've come back... purely to experience the single player story. I've always loved their writing and aside from some dreary moments on Taris I've not been disappointed with SWTOR. By simply changing my expectations, I feel like I'm getting a good value from the game. I'm hopeful that they will continue to keep up the game and expand it, because I really enjoy it. I honestly don't think, though, that improved LFG tools or server consolidations will do the trick without a change to the NPCs so that they acknowledge that other players exist, and help me as a player to get into the mindset of an MMO player.

[Sagimore]

In MMO's I tend to solo 90% of the time, yet I want to do that in a MMO world..Doesnt feel that way here. I think its the planets. I think if WoW launched today I would pretty much feel the same way. In UO there were player run areas where PKs ganked night and day. While I hated getting ganked it was fun avoiding those areas or going with others and killing them.

SWG had it right, though I didnt like the game much. And wow had it for a time. With world PVP in TM SS, it felt like a living place. SWTOR just has planets to level on. I cant really say I remember anything from the worlds. I know I would need a map to know where im going every time.

[Urkanan]

Not a design issue. Again, does the game designers have to hold your hand and place it in the other players hand in order to get you to do something? Do they have to throw a shiny in the middle of you and your opponent in order to get you guys to fight?

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

I do not need BW to hold my hand and take me anywhere I think, but my weekend play-time consisted of finishing what I had left from Hoth last weekend, plus over half of Belsavis, all of it solo-questing, plus a story "interlude" that happened in between the 2 planets, or just enough to get from early 37 to mid-41 iirc. In that time, my weekly playtime:

 

 

• 
   
  
• I run across a whooping total of 12 different people (accounting for both factions) on the planet's surfaces
  
• Just travelling to any open world pvp area (if they really existed) would have taken 20 mins away from my playtime between speeders, shuttles and loading screens
  
• There is no waranty there will be any pvp whatsoever after the long, annoying trip.
  
• I do not, even by accident, wander into enemy territory (EVER in 17 or so planets...)
  

 

Honestly It starts to feel like it is I who has to hold BW's hand so that their game does feel like an MMO...

 

 

I love the game, but yeah, in my book it is a design/planification problem:

 

 

• 
   
  
• Planets way too big. (Oh yeah I love 3-minute rides in my speeder)
  
• Virtualy separate play areas for each faction throughout the game (boring)
  
• Too many servers (= lower pop = lower chance to run into others)
  
• No real need to engage in group content in order to level.
  
• Solo content (story mode) does not mesh at all with groups (grouping makes this content boring/trivial, and your partner is but a mere spectator of your interactions...)
  
• Inability to assault enemy true bastions (Capital Planets/Fleets)
  

Edited June 4, 2012 by Urkanan

[Skidrowbro]

Respectfully disagree.

 

I do not need BW to hold my hand and take me anywhere I think, but my weekend play-time consisted of finishing what I had left from Hoth last weekend, plus over half of Belsavis, all of it solo-questing, plus a story "interlude" that happened in between the 2 planets, or just enough to get from early 37 to mid-41 iirc. In that time, my weekly playtime:

 

 

• 
   
  
• I run across a whooping total of 12 different people (accounting for both factions) on the planet's surfaces
  
• Just travelling to any open world pvp area (if they really existed) would have taken 20 mins away from my playtime between speeders, shuttles and loading screens
  
• There is no waranty there will be any pvp whatsoever after the long, annoying trip.
  
• I do not, even by accident, wander into enemy territory (EVER in 17 or so planets...)
  

 

Honestly It starts to feel like it is I who has to hold BW's hand so that their game does feel like an MMO...

 

 

I love the game, but yeah, in my book it is a design/planification problem:

 

 

• 
   
  
• Planets way too big. (Oh yeah I love 3-minute rides in my speeder)
  
• Virtualy separate play areas for each faction throughout the game (boring)
  
• Too many servers (= lower pop = lower chance to run into others)
  
• No real need to engage in group content in order to level.
  
• Solo content (story mode) does not mesh at all with groups (grouping makes this content boring/trivial, and your partner is but a mere spectator of your interactions...)
  
• Inability to assault enemy true bastions (Capital Planets/Fleets)
  

 

Sigh, aside from the dead servers obviously:rolleyes:

[Urkanan]

Sigh, aside from the dead servers obviously:rolleyes:

 

Well I play on Luka Sene Imp side, which I think is not too bad... at least I never got the feeling of dead server, not more than I did on my medium-sized WoW server anyway.

 

I kinda agree with your view of many people needing their hands held, but I still disagree with many decissions the devs made around the design of the game, as I pointed in my post.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Urkanan

[rhirne]

It is an MMO by description, but there are a lot of people who want to see some changes to how they feel the MMO aspect.

 

We know that there are several servers with low pops. That there is taking the MMo experience away for a low of people. They log on and don't really ever see anybody else. To go to a planet and see a body count of 5 (only 1 single instance) you know you will probably never see those people unless they are AFK somewhere and you just so HAPPEN to run by them.

 

For that matter, the only reason I know where the Open PvP are is on Tatooine is because during the Rhakghoul Plague, I ran through the area BY ACCIDENT.... I didn't even realize I was running into an enemy outpost at one point until I got killed by their guards (never even saw an imperal PC). I know I am on RP-PvE server, but just wow.

 

And, you do not even have to do Space Combat, or PvP, or Warzones, etc... to level up. Can just do class / planet quests and gain more than enough xp for leveling. There is really no reward for grouping and thus, not really a point to do group content if I can do everything I want solo. I understand the reasoning behind BW decision, but it is actually doing the opposite of what they created the systems for.

[wutru]

Swtor might be labeled an MMO, but it definitely doesn't feel like one.

[Ngamok]

I've read many people say that SW:TOR is not an MMO but an online single player game or a co-op game but I don't really see any reasons as to why it isn't an MMO so I'd like to find out what makes an MMO an MMO for you guys and why SW:TOR is lacking these areas.

 

I personally don't really see much difference between TOR and say LotRO, EQ2 and WoW especially as its in its infancy and those games have had time to add lots of features that we take granted these days. Now I accept the arguement that even those games I've mentioned don't really stack up compared to older MMO's like Asherons Call, DAOC and EQ but they also were not perfect and really just put players in a world and had them grind their tails off, so I'm a little perplexed by this SW:TOR is not an MMO but I'm always willing to be proved wrong and re-educated.

 

It's an MMO. Do you group up to do Heroic quests? Do you have dungeons and raids? Just because you can solo your class story, planet story and side quests doesn't mean the game is single player.

 

But you are right. In EQ, you basically had to group to get XP especially for the AA points. Druids were the only class I know that could kite stuff around given enough room.

[Skidrowbro]

It's an MMO. Do you group up to do Heroic quests? Do you have dungeons and raids? Just because you can solo your class story, planet story and side quests doesn't mean the game is single player.

 

But you are right. In EQ, you basically had to group to get XP especially for the AA points. Druids were the only class I know that could kite stuff around given enough room.

 

Yes, players were forced into grouping but over the years the majority have been coming to forums like this and asking for, wait for it, SOLO play. They have been given it. Now it looks like it's back firing on the playerbase instead.

[AssajiStarseed]

1) Chat. I know its bat **** crazy but chat bubbles mean I know who is talking and saying what and make me feel like I am listening to someone

2) Dialog. If the entire game has voiceovers but when other players say things out side an instance I dont get them speak and have to read I lose interest,

3) Sand Box, I like the idea of theam park games but I need a house, gun racks, decorations, harvesters, player cities, capital ships etc etc not just running the same instance where I have stopped Darth Malgus 30 times but still we keep letting the same guy take over Ilum. I would prefer if the repeatable quests made sence, but of 20 guys at Corellian 500 are spys and we still dont remove them

4) Character creation and species choice. I want to make my hero my way and then play as him. Not play as some standard "hawk" style hero.

 

All in all TOR is a poor MMO, its a good single player game, Could have been better when I defeat an evil Moff, I dont expect to leave his fortress and find all the the guys I kiled respawned. I expect to return to areas and see the good I have done rather than nothing has changed. But I enjoyed the story and the world.

 

this

 

I posted this same exact thing in another topic, but I also think it's relevant in this topic as well. Here is my opinion on what would help SW:TOR a better, stronger MMO. Hear me out please..

 

I absolutely love SW:TOR. I have followed it since 2009 and remember when I was selected to participate in one of the beta weekends. Amazing, just an amazing game. Like others have said though, it feels more like a single player game with MMORPG elements rather than a full blown MMORPG. Here are a few things that I think would give SW:TOR that much needed boost:

 

 

• Economy
  

In my opinion and I think most others agree, the in-game economy is not good. There is very little reason to go to the auction house. The reason why is because it is easier and near cheaper to get your stuff at a vendor. Armor, weapons, medkits, mods, etc. All of those things can be bought and easily obtained at vendors with credits, commendation currency, or just looting NPCs. Bad, bad idea.

 

I don't suggest Bioware completely take out the NPC vendors, but don't have them sell items that are at your level. On each planet, set the levels of the items that the NPC vendors sell, below everyone else's suggested level for the planet and people won't buy as much stuff from the vendors. They will be forced to loot, and sell/buy it all on the auction house. This will provide for a stronger economy, and better supply and demand I would imagine.

 

Bottom line for the economy: don't let the NPCs sell the goods, let the players sell the goods. This will force people to craft and buy/sell their product at the auction house (GTN) thus creating a better economy and even better, a stronger community.

 

 

• Open world PvP
  

I cannot stress this enough, but with the addition of warzones there is very little reason to fight opposing players in the open world. Bioware does not get this, and neither did Mythic when they created Warhammer Online. MMO players love open world pvp. We have seen the posts over, and over, and over again, and I agree. Open world pvp helps bolster a community, and gives a reason for players to fight for their side.

 

Warzones in my opinion, although fun, is a bad way to incorporate pvp into an MMO. I understand the concept making it simpler and quicker for players who want to pvp but don't want to take the time to join a raid party, but sometimes going the easy route is not the right way to go about. In WAR it wasn't as bad because it was classified as an RvR MMO and the main goal at the end of the day was to sack the enemy's capital city. Everything contributed to the war.

 

This is not the case for SW:TOR. This is mostly a pve with pvp elements. There is honestly no point for open world pvp other than it's fun, but now people will rarely organize pvp raids because they can simply go into a warzone for fifteen minutes, and repeat.

 

Just imagine if Bioware hadn't incorporated warzones at all. Do you not agree that players would organize pvp raids more often? Why? Because that would be the only way to pvp in the first place, thus creating a much stronger community.

 

Bottom line: I know Bioware won't take their warzones away (I really wish you all didn't add them in the first place), but give reasons for people to pvp. I'm not talking about buffs and all that jazz either. Give people an option to capture bases or something that they can be proud of. WAR nearly had it right. The main goal was to capture an enemy city and to do that you had to capture territory. All in all it was fun, although horribly implemented in my opinion.

 

 

• Server Merges
  

I understand that Bioware is finally merging the servers and raising the pop caps. Good choice! I've been itching to see more people on the planets I currently roam. It makes it that much more exciting. Just hurry up please or you will lose even more subs with each passing month.

 

 

• Community
  

As you can see I bring up the word community a lot. That is because community is key to a fantastic MMO. Take every single successful and amazing MMO, and understand that they had/have a strong community. Although many people whine about the kids and idiots who run rampant in WoW, the passion does indeed make it more exciting and fleshed out.

 

Give players tools to building their community. That is why people play an MMO. At the end of the day the regular MMO player isn't just going to solo (why even play an MMO in the first place?). They want to join groups and interact with other people. That is the whole concept of an MMO.

 

SW:TOR needs that strong community vibe. Without it, it is stale and boring. Bioware, give players the tools to help build the community it needs. It has so much potential.

 

and this

 

SWTOR is completely on rails. By that I mean, a specific path is laid out in front of you, and you can't deviate from it. The class story line should be this way, don't get me wrong. Aside from that, players should be free to explore maps and take on different quests within those maps to gain experience how they see fit. As it stands now, it doesn't exist. 1.3 will change some of that, providing the player options to increase xp to questing, PvP, Flashpoints, through Legacy perks. But if the current Legacy system is any kind of indicator, it will be expensive.

 

While leveling, there is really no need to be social in SWTOR. That's the real MMO aspect, grouping up with and playing with other players. You can level through all content on your own because this game is extremely easy. Even the heroics can be solo'd if you wait a few levels and go back to do them. Same with flashpoints. The slight xp and social point gain while grouping is too minimal to be a real incentive to group up.

 

Fleet is supposed to be to social hub for each faction. Without a viable LFG tool, it's more of a fancy waiting room and shopping center. The capital cities were originally supposed to be the hubs, and fleet stations were implemented as a last minute change. Bad move in my opinion.

 

Servers are mostly empty. Add all of the above together in addition to not enough players online overall, and you have a pretty miserable social experience. This is where SWTOR really falls short. Players are spread too thin.

 

and this

Edited June 24, 2012 by AssajiStarseed

[AssajiStarseed]

MMO - massively multiplayer online.... the Hero Engine can't handle more than 8 people on-screen at once really. There is NOTHING massive about this game apart from the blind fanbois who can't tell a dead turkey from a golden hen...

 

pretty much

 

When I first started playing SW:TOR, I found myself feeling kind of awkward playing through the game. On the one hand, I enjoyed the quests and the single-player aspect of it. But I never felt any encouragement from the NPCs to group with any of the other people around me. They kept telling me that I was the savior of the planet and went on and on about how many great things I had done, and they never mentioned the other people playing the game. So why would I think about them?

 

Strangely, this simultaneously edged me away from multiplayer just by not putting me in the right mindset, while at the same time it made the single-player less enjoyable, because their accolades rang false. How could I be the singular savior or Balmorra when there's a Bounty Hunter three levels higher than me standing 5 feet away turning in the quest that I'm about to start? When I'm playing Shepherd in Mass Effect, it sounds perfectly natural to be told that I'm the only hope of the galaxy, but should I really be told that when I have four guildmates who have already outlevelled me?

 

I think the SPRPG writing of BIoware, which is exemplary and I dearly love, has subtly gotten in the way of creating a multiplayer culture. I know that part of their design philosophy was to set this game apart from others by creating a more epic feel for your character... but I just don't think they thought through what feeling this would create in the game world. I'd like to see their considerable writing talent turned into innovative ways to creating more of a multiplayer FEEL to the story as it expands.

 

For me, I put the game down a few months ago, but I've come back... purely to experience the single player story. I've always loved their writing and aside from some dreary moments on Taris I've not been disappointed with SWTOR. By simply changing my expectations, I feel like I'm getting a good value from the game. I'm hopeful that they will continue to keep up the game and expand it, because I really enjoy it. I honestly don't think, though, that improved LFG tools or server consolidations will do the trick without a change to the NPCs so that they acknowledge that other players exist, and help me as a player to get into the mindset of an MMO player.

 

this as well

 

 

A virtual believable world with dynamic NPCs and a high player population, different playstyles, non combat playstyles, meaningful crafting, minigames, housing, world storyline, worlds changing, players able to change the gameworld, secrets and eastereggs.

 

and this

Edited June 24, 2012 by AssajiStarseed

[Valkirus]

I can tell why SWTOR is not an MMO. First, do you play on one of the handful of full servers? If so, then it generally is an MMO. There is no OWPVP, but that is a different issue. The problem is that the terrible server management and the game engine itself do not allow any substantial number of players to interact at the same time. I played a lot of LOTRO. It never, never, was as dead as the typical SWTOR plant. I dont think I ever was in a region in LOTRO where I was the only person. Typically there would be a half dozen people within viewing range. In LOTRO you could get twenty people in the screen and not have freezes. Then at each major destination point you nearly always had five or more people within a few seconds of movement space. This was after a year of play. And it was the same the entire year since I started playing it in closed beta. Now, having been on Tera since beta, we still have many people playing in almost every area. You NEVER, in either LOTRO or Tera, can move at full speed for twenty minutes and not see a single other player. That is common in SWTOR. Understand now?

 

Right on. Good post. And now with 80+% of the servers with even less players on them...it is like you said, only even worse. The LFG tool is not going to help those left on the low pop servers and want to avoid the lag associated with large grps of players. If it had been cross server.... atleast they would be able to do some group runs with others.