Samaul Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I have a LOT of experience as a guild leader. I currently lead a SWTOR guild with 450+characters or about 250-300 individual accounts. Our average online presence during prime time is 15-30 members. Most of our mekmbers are casual players. Server population has dropped on our serv In guilds and MMOs, player turnover is always and issue. We have experienced extemely low turnover for such a large guild. In the past two months, the population of our server has dropped by about 2/3 but our guild population has remained steady due to good recruiting and low turnover. Despite reduced population, our consistently strong online presence has kept the server population from imploding. How have we succeeded where so many other guilds have failed? I have tried many strategies to reduce player turnover, almost all have failed. Here are some of the strategies I have tried to reduce turnover and increase member retention: 1. Go casual - let your members do almost anything they want, whenever they want. Make everything as easy and convenient as possible for them. As few rules and as little organization as possible to keep the gulid together. > The "go casual" strategy has always failed miserably. Turnover is extremely high and retention is very low. Players dont get involved with the guild, have little invested in the game or their characters. Walking away from the guild and the game is as easy as ordering a pizza, they dont think twice about it. "Go Gasual" results in a low quality player gaming experience. Frequent and devastating guild splits are likely with "Go casual". Go casual doesnt work very well for PvE or PvP gulids. 2. Total hardcore - a strong set of rules, firmly enforced, no tolerance of BS of any kind. Everything is organized, strict discipline is enforced. > "Total hardcore" only works in the right game, in this case, Planetside where strict discipline and high organization result in overwhelming dominance over the enemy. Dont make anything easy, make members earn everything. On the downside, "Total hardcore" only works for a short period of time, then players get burned out, surly and resentful. "Total hardcore" results in a high quality gaming experience for a short time. "Total hardcore" is gauranteed to result in a devastating guild split due to pent up tension in the guild. Total hardcore is a very effective strategy for PvP gulids, at least for a while. 3. Hardcore casual - a strong set of rules, but treat people with respect as individuals. Provide incentives for members who wish to better themselves and their charadters through rank and recognition. Let the casuals be casuals and let the hardcore be hardcore. Everyone follows the rules but give people room to be themselves. Encourage them to experience every aspect of the game but not to spend too much time in one aspect of the game, lest they become frustrated and burn out. Members are encouraged to work together towards common goals but not bullied into doing so. > "Hardcore casual" is by far the most effective stragety for MMORPG guild leadership. It results in the highest level of member satisfaction and the highest quality gaming experience. Strong, fair, consistent leadership is always more respected than bullying and threats or no leadership at all. "Hardcore casual" works for both PvE and PvP guilds, often blending both. How does my experience translate into running a successful MMORPG? 1. Encourage players to experience every aspect of the game. Make every aspect of the game worth playing through rewards and incentives. 2. Dont make it too easy and dont make it too hard. Find the right balance. 3. For those who do want to make an effort, provide the best rewards for the greatest challenges but dont force them to turn playing an MMORPG into a job. Spread those challenges and rewards across every aspect of the game. Which strategy is WoW using now? WoW is firmly in the "Go casual" category and is reaping the downside that comes with it of high player turnover, dissatisfaction and attrition. It is no surprise to me as a guild leader that few guilds can sustain the kind of consistent activity that we have in SWTOR which is in the "hardcore casual" category. I frequently tell my members that if we moved our gulid to WoW it would fall apart within two months and that most wow servers do not have the population base to supply us with a steady stream of new members. There just are not enough new players coming to wow. SWOTR's biggest strength is that it continues to attract large numbers of new players. The important thing to remember is that the "hardcore casual" approach appeals to both casual and hardcore players and is sufficiently challenging to keep players interested for extended periods of time. Greater challenges in every aspect of the game mean greater satisfaction and a better gaming experience for more players. Players are less likely to abandon their characters on a whim and can become quite attached to them and their guild. Being forced to work together to achieve common challenging goals means that they form stronger connections with other players and stronger server communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 SWOTR's biggest strength is that it continues to attract large numbers of new players. Then why is it that only 4 out of the 100+ servers are the only ones with a population? And even then only one of those 4 has an actual active population atm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilSaihah Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Very interesting post and a decent read. Thanks for sharing, OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKlone Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Then why is it that only 4 out of the 100+ servers are the only ones with a population? And even then only one of those 4 has an actual active population atm? your answer is in your question.. "100+ servers" that and the fact WoW will never die. Anyone that would love SW says "meh Ima go back to my 324 level 85s that I already made in WoW" EDIT: After a quick scan of WoW servers they're 12 full, 11 heavy, didn't take the time to count the 75ish that were medium, 10 low, and a handful of "new player" servers. There's not a damn thing wrong with this game. there's just really not THAT many people that want to play MMOs.. so the complaining needs to stop. Game is small now, less servers = win. EDIT 2: hardly read OPs post but lol'd at the part of WoW having high turnover... I think he meant population ;D Edited June 1, 2012 by iKlone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedipwnsauce Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 then why is it that only 4 out of the 100+ servers are the only ones with a population? And even then only one of those 4 has an actual active population atm? zing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 Then why is it that only 4 out of the 100+ servers are the only ones with a population? And even then only one of those 4 has an actual active population atm? WoW is trying to hold onto its existing subscribers, it is attracting few new subscribers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drungar Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I agree with the OP, its the kind of thing that seemed to be obvious for years, but so few take advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 WoW is trying to hold onto its existing subscribers, it is attracting few new subscribers. WoW has 9 million + subscribers and cross-server functions to help less populated servers. WoW has nothing to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 WoW is trying to hold onto its existing subscribers, it is attracting few new subscribers. And they been doing that too for the most part. Atleast in terms of sub retentions for the last 6 months of reports. Same cannot be said about TOR however. WoW contunues to succeed because it does one big thing BioWare has failed to do.....have easy and timely access to group content. Esp end game. I run a guild in WoW which is totally casual, that is we only have one rule..."respect others at all times in word or deed. " But players are free to play when and how they want as long as the one rule is kept. We had like 150 before WOTLK was released and at the present are at 242 members. So casual only guilds can be successful if the "game" lets them experence the content in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) never mind... Edited June 1, 2012 by JediElf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 WoW has 9 million + subscribers and cross-server functions to help less populated servers. WoW has nothing to worry about. WoW lost over 2 million subscribers in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrecklessMEDIC Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 WoW is trying to hold onto its existing subscribers, it is attracting few new subscribers. Hate to say it, but SWTOR isn't attracting any new subscribers at that moment either. Don't get me wrong I love it and run my own "hardcore casual" guild here, but SWTOR's been consistently losing 9-14% of its concurrent player base per week. I'm not too worried though as these upcoming server transfers should help stabilize the population problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 WoW lost over 2 million subscribers in 2011. And yet they still have 9 million + subscribers atm and they will get them all back when that stupid panda expansion comes out while swtor will continue to bleed subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrecklessMEDIC Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) And yet they still have 9 million + subscribers atm and they will get them all back when that stupid panda expansion comes out while swtor will continue to bleed subs. I'd be surprised if WoW ever cracked 10 million subs again honestly. Kung Fu Pokemon Island caused a lot of people to quit, myself included. I think the MMO genre itself has come to a conclusion. Same with reality TV come to think of it.... *mind wanders aimlessly Edited June 2, 2012 by WrecklessMEDIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussasp Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I checked out some of the beta information about Pandaria, and it was much more interesting to me than anything that is in the works for SWTOR and it's upcoming features. Don't get me wrong, I want to really like SWTOR, but it's just not as rich or content-filled as WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I'd be surprised if WoW ever cracked 10 million subs again honestly. Kung Fu Pokemon Island caused a lot of people to quit, myself included. I think the MMO genre itself has come to a conclusion. Same with reality TV come to think of it.... *mind wanders aimlessly Brace yourself....they had 10.2 million subs the last two quarterly reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 WoW lost over 2 million subscribers in 2011. Wrong. They lost 1.7 million and currently are at 10.2 million....have not had any total sub base losts the last 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I'd be surprised if WoW ever cracked 10 million subs again honestly. Kung Fu Pokemon Island caused a lot of people to quit, myself included. I think the MMO genre itself has come to a conclusion. Same with reality TV come to think of it.... *mind wanders aimlessly Except that their next expansion is targeting Asians. Sure, they'll gain a lot of subs, but they'll be cheap subs. $1 a month versus a $15 a month sub. I'm not saying they spend $1 a month. I'm not even attempting the math, but when Chinese subs are half of your 11 million subscribers and only account for 6% of revenues, it aint much. Edited June 2, 2012 by Kourage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Except that their next expansion is targeting Asians. Sure, they'll gain a lot of subs, but they'll be cheap subs. $1 a month versus a $15 a month sub. I'm not saying they spend $1 a month. I'm not even attempting the math, but when Chinese subs are half of your 11 million subscribers and only account for 6% of revenues, it aint much. Lol! It is plenty enough to help them continue to come out with expansions and add new content. Anyone who thinks WoW is in any kind of trouble are only deluding themselves. Blizzard set new preorder record sales with D3, 4.7 million...and as of now...close to 6 million are playing that game alone. They understand the core of a MMO is the casual gamer and at the same time offer plenty of content for the hardcore players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrecklessMEDIC Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Brace yourself....they had 10.2 million subs the last two quarterly reports. Oh my God... I'm back. I'm home. All the time it was... we finally really did it. [screaming] YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! Gosh Darn YOU ALL TO HELL! *shakes fist at half-destroyed Statue of Liberty Edited June 2, 2012 by WrecklessMEDIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkirus Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) Oh my God... I'm back. I'm home. All the time it was... we finally really did it. [screaming] YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! OH, DAMN YOU! Gosh Darn YOU ALL TO HELL! *shakes fist at half-destroyed Statue of Liberty Lol! yeah...shocking WoW is still well and alive huh? That is why I told you to brace yourself Edited June 2, 2012 by Valkirus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I've been in both Hardcore and Casual guilds and have seen the problems associated with each. Too casual and you can't get anyone together to do anything as a guild, too hardcore and people who can't log on at specific times each week and stay on for 5 hours for required guild activities end up with the short end of the stick. There is also the issue of elitism to combat. If your guild has a core group of members (be they RL friends or long time guild associates) that tend to alienate all of the other members, you'll start to bleed everyone but those core members. New guild members on the outside of the core group looking in who feel they have no chance of becoming an insider will be quick to leave. Understanding that not everyone lives in the same time zone or works the same schedule and arranging multiple groups and times helps a lot but really only works if you have enough people to split up. I spent a year of WoW in a guild made up entirely of Australians and 3rd shift working North and South Americans so that I could raid. It was fun, but Vent was an accent smorgasbord. A successful guild will mold itself around its players instead of forcing its players into a mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senatsu Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 My WoW guild is going the hardcore casual way. We raid on regular times, but we're quite lenient and don't demand that every player shows up to every raid evening, you need a reason for not doing so though. We uphold discipline and limit idiocy in general chat, but we joke and laugh our asses off in Vent on a regular basis. It's okay to friendly mock someone, but if anyone feels it's going to far then they will be told to shut up before it escalates. I prefer that type of leadership. Not to strict, but not to relaxed either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 I've been in both Hardcore and Casual guilds and have seen the problems associated with each. Too casual and you can't get anyone together to do anything as a guild, too hardcore and people who can't log on at specific times each week and stay on for 5 hours for required guild activities end up with the short end of the stick. There is also the issue of elitism to combat. If your guild has a core group of members (be they RL friends or long time guild associates) that tend to alienate all of the other members, you'll start to bleed everyone but those core members. New guild members on the outside of the core group looking in who feel they have no chance of becoming an insider will be quick to leave. Understanding that not everyone lives in the same time zone or works the same schedule and arranging multiple groups and times helps a lot but really only works if you have enough people to split up. I spent a year of WoW in a guild made up entirely of Australians and 3rd shift working North and South Americans so that I could raid. It was fun, but Vent was an accent smorgasbord. A successful guild will mold itself around its players instead of forcing its players into a mold. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 WoW is trying to hold onto its existing subscribers, it is attracting few new subscribers. Difference is, if WoW lost two-thirds of its "existing" subscribers, it would still be twice as big as SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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