Mass CC

[csmnstoica]

Awe/Intimidating Roar and Flash grenade/Flash bang should have a reduced duration in PVP. A knight/warrior jumping into a group and CCing every1 for 6 secons is HUGE in pvp. The smuggler/agent mass CC is less obvious since they tend to use it defensively rather than offensively but its no less powerfull.

People tend to group up for important tasks (eg attacking the ball carrier, attacking a healer etc etc) and this is the most OP form of CC.

 

Should be dropped to 4 secs or even 3 secs in PVP, leave the full duration for PVE

[AKfourtyseven]

Nope, i love it when 6 people run around like a herd of sheep so i can CC them all and laugh.

[-Fal-]

It breaks on combat, 90% of the time it is broken by some idiot using grenades or smash. It's fine btw.

[sauerkraut]

Awe/Intimidating Roar and Flash grenade/Flash bang should have a reduced duration in PVP. A knight/warrior jumping into a group and CCing every1 for 6 secons is HUGE in pvp. The smuggler/agent mass CC is less obvious since they tend to use it defensively rather than offensively but its no less powerfull.

People tend to group up for important tasks (eg attacking the ball carrier, attacking a healer etc etc) and this is the most OP form of CC.

 

Should be dropped to 4 secs or even 3 secs in PVP, leave the full duration for PVE

 

What 6 sec CC are you talking about?

[Dani]

What 6 sec CC are you talking about?

 

Awe/intimidating roar, flashbang/flash grenade. They do break on combat tho

Edited May 25, 2012 by Dani

[kuey]

It breaks on combat, 90% of the time it is broken by some idiot using grenades or smash. It's fine btw.

 

This. Multiple people 1 spot. The biggest epeen stroking moment for Rage/Focus specs, and one which 90% fall for.

[csmnstoica]

The point is that Mass CC should not last as long as single target CC.

 

Mass should be more like an interrupt rather than an actual long CC. And warrior/knight can still do their Epeen mass dmg move even when the CC is 4 secs instead of 6 secs.

[csmnstoica]

Carbonize/Neural Surge that the Bounty Hunter/Trooper gets is pretty balanced. Its is a PITA mass CC but its only for 1 sec so it is in no form OP.

[kuey]

The point is that Mass CC should not last as long as single target CC.

 

Mass should be more like an interrupt rather than an actual long CC. And warrior/knight can still do their Epeen mass dmg move even when the CC is 4 secs instead of 6 secs.

 

I think the idea was that, regardless of length, 1 or 2 seconds into the mezz they're going to be broken out of it. There's also skills with delay casts (e.g. project, grav round, etc.) that will hit afterward the mezz even though it was cast before and break it.

 

The only time you cop out the full mezz is against a team of 2 very well organized pre-mades or if 4 of you are trying to melee GB down someone solo and they rest it to bail out. If it's the pre-made causing you grief, if they're organized enough to a. use vent, b. prepare in advance with NO dots on anyone and c. prepare to stop attacking targets as soon as the CC is used, then you're probably gonna lose 9/10 anyway, meaning the outcome probably hasn't changed much anyway.

 

Whilst I understand your annoyance at the length of the CC, it's very rare that the whole group will cop the full CC. As someone with both a Scoundrel and Guardian I can tell you that I've never kept all my targets CC'd unless they all jump me whilst I'm sitting around all on my own (which is only really ever when I'm heading to an objective, in which case the other team deserves to lose if they're wasting 4-5 people off chasing someone who is nowhere near the objective).

[Darthshnooky]

I think the idea was that, regardless of length, 1 or 2 seconds into the mezz they're going to be broken out of it. There's also skills with delay casts (e.g. project, grav round, etc.) that will hit afterward the mezz even though it was cast before and break it.

 

The only time you cop out the full mezz is against a team of 2 very well organized pre-mades or if 4 of you are trying to melee GB down someone solo and they rest it to bail out. If it's the pre-made causing you grief, if they're organized enough to a. use vent, b. prepare in advance with NO dots on anyone and c. prepare to stop attacking targets as soon as the CC is used, then you're probably gonna lose 9/10 anyway, meaning the outcome probably hasn't changed much anyway.

 

Whilst I understand your annoyance at the length of the CC, it's very rare that the whole group will cop the full CC. As someone with both a Scoundrel and Guardian I can tell you that I've never kept all my targets CC'd unless they all jump me whilst I'm sitting around all on my own (which is only really ever when I'm heading to an objective, in which case the other team deserves to lose if they're wasting 4-5 people off chasing someone who is nowhere near the objective).

 

This ^

 

And since it is usually broken so quickly anyways, it's actually better for the players being CC'd that it has a long theoretical duration, as it fills up more resolve this way. If lowered to 3 seconds, and broken in 2 anyways, that would actually be a buff to these skills through reduced resolve.

[AKfourtyseven]

This ^

 

And since it is usually broken so quickly anyways, it's actually better for the players being CC'd that it has a long theoretical duration, as it fills up more resolve this way. If lowered to 3 seconds, and broken in 2 anyways, that would actually be a buff to these skills through reduced resolve.

 

Yep.

 

It would make chain awe stupidly overpowered since you could do it more than twice, ensuring that nobody would have their CC breaker left and happily disarm doors or cap objectives while multiple people stood by and watched.

 

Its fine as it is, the only time i felt it was overpowered was solo disarming a door guarded by a bunch of melee who all seemed to have no CC breaker. Thats once in all the warzones it took me to get a Jugg to rank 70 and a Guardian to 79. Rare...

[crrypto]

Derp. Okay guys, in that case, because all Mezzes are broken so easily and systematically, lets just increase all Mezzes to five minutes. Why not, since they are all always broken two seconds in anyway, right?

 

How long a mezz lasts and it being interrupted by PUGs are two entirely separate things with absolutely no relation to the other.

 

The reasoning skills of some of you makes me question the future of humanity.

Edited May 25, 2012 by crrypto

[Veeius]

Ok... except that:

 

1) jk/sw's don't have an actual stun like most others. We have force choke, however, that stuns us too. AND WORSE, when I have to force choke someone who has resolve, I am still unable to do anything but channel force choke even while my target is running away, or, I don't know, killing me.

 

2) I have no credible heals at all. I have one pathetic hot, and if I talent for it, I have one very small heal, both with immense cd's.

 

Give me a stun that lets me kick the crap out of you instead of standing there like a statue, make force push work correctly, give me SERIOUS heals with little cd's then, sure, I won't mind my aoe cc being nerfed.

 

btw, you do realize that my best attack in the normal pvp build is an aoe, right? And that my aoe cc breaks on a single point of damage?

[Ridickilis]

1) jk/sw's don't have an actual stun like most others. We have force choke, however, that stuns us too. AND WORSE, when I have to force choke someone who has resolve, I am still unable to do anything but channel force choke even while my target is running away, or, I don't know, killing me.

 

Why are you choking someone with full resolve? Even if you don't get the talented unchanneled choke and 'feel stunned yourself" your opponent still isn't able to touch you while simultaneously taking damage so that's still a win-win situation. And the last bit, just interrupt yourself then and get out of there/that situation.

 

2) I have no credible heals at all. I have one pathetic hot, and if I talent for it, I have one very small heal, both with immense cd's.

 

Hmm, don't all Guardians/Juggs get the equivalent of Endure Pain? That's like having a second WZ medpack and it's only a 90 sec CD.

 

Give me a stun that lets me kick the crap out of you instead of standing there like a statue, make force push work correctly, give me SERIOUS heals with little cd's then, sure, I won't mind my aoe cc being nerfed.

 

You would have to go immortal tree then for unchanned choke/backhand + ravage. But you would be giving up the smash gimmick of course. Can't have it all.

 

btw, you do realize that my best attack in the normal pvp build is an aoe, right? And that my aoe cc breaks on a single point of damage?

 

And isn't that how the AoE mezz is supposed to be used for a rage/fucus build? To ensure that everyone stays in your smash range? I'm just asking because I don't have a rage build but that's how I would use the AoE mezz in that situation. I wouldn't care if it breaks after I hit them all with an uber smash.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Ridickilis

[Veeius]

Why are you choking someone with full resolve? Even if you don't get the talented unchanneled choke and 'feel stunned yourself" your opponent still isn't able to touch you while simultaneously taking damage so that's still a win-win situation. And the last bit, just interrupt yourself then and get out of there/that situation.

 

Why? Maybe force crush and enrage are both on cd, it happens, quite often, actually. And you are NOT going to get force grip if you're rage. Also, "taking damage" ? Seriously? While you're technically correct that the target "takes damage" it's a PATHETIC AMOUNT of damage. I'd ***LOVE*** for the same mechanics to work for shock, cryo grendae &c &c. where the ONLY damage I would take would be a penny ante nearly worthless dot. But no, they still unload on me, and in fact often do SUBSTANTIALLY more damage when I'm stunned than when I'm not.

 

Hmm, don't all Guardians/Juggs get the equivalent of Endure Pain? That's like having a second WZ medpack and it's only a 90 sec CD.

 

Endure pain has it's place. But saying it's like a second medpack ignores the fact that that health is temporary. When it runs out, you have *1* health left. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have a bubble or heals or an ACTUAL stun. I'm not saying it's worthless, but I am saying it's not as good as an actual heal.

 

 

 

You would have to go immortal tree then for unchanned choke/backhand + ravage. But you would be giving up the smash gimmick of course. Can't have it all.

 

Yeah, and I'd do about 1/4th the damage I can currently do. It's not a good trade.

 

 

And isn't that how the AoE mezz is supposed to be used for a rage/fucus build? To ensure that everyone stays in your smash range? I'm just asking because I don't have a rage build but that's how I would use the AoE mezz in that situation. I wouldn't care if it breaks after I hit them all with an uber smash.

 

No, the AoE mezz does not build rage/focus. It's generally best NOT to use it when you're planning to smash. Most people don't bother running away anyways.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Veeius
answering last point

[Ridickilis]

Why? Maybe force crush and enrage are both on cd, it happens, quite often, actually. And you are NOT going to get force grip if you're rage.

 

Well I still disagree that you should use that just to build rage when those other abilities are on CD, it's just a waste of a good CC. If you feel it does such weenie damage why don't you just spam your base attack to build rage instead choking someone while they are in full resolve?

 

I think a better way to use that is when you are tag teaming with another Rage Jugg or Mara or something and you can each take turns stunlocking them while the other smashes/ravages until players start unsubbing.

 

Also, "taking damage" ? Seriously? While you're technically correct that the target "takes damage" it's a PATHETIC AMOUNT of damage. I'd ***LOVE*** for the same mechanics to work for shock, cryo grendae &c &c. where the ONLY damage I would take would be a penny ante nearly worthless dot. But no, they still unload on me, and in fact often do SUBSTANTIALLY more damage when I'm stunned than when I'm not.

 

Umm I have to completely disagree here. Force Choke is far superior to Electrocute. Not only does choke build rage but it also ticks three times, meaning you have the the chance to crit on each tick. Electrocute just does it's initial damage and it's one tick base is about half of one tick of Choke.

 

And yeah I know that the AoE mezz doesn't build rage, I probably should have said Rage spec instead of Rage 'build'. That's what I meant. I was just thinking using it before the smash would give you a few more seconds to pop an adrenal or get into perfect position or something to that effect.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Ridickilis

[gilgath]

There is already too much CC in this game as it is.

 

Agree with the OP that a group stun like that should have a much much shorter duration. I could care less if it breaks on contact, the duration is too long.

 

Remember the AOE fear spell from..that one game? It didn't have nearly the duration of the normal single target fear, and rightly so.

[Astarica]

Force Choke builds rage because it's channeled. Otherwise it'd be taking 2 GCDs to disable the enemy for 2 GCDs while getting you 0 resource advantage plus the minuscule damage it does, which means using Force Choke would almost certainly make you in a worse position (due to resolve).

 

AE blind type effects are pretty powerful when used correctly but I see nothing wrong with having powerful effects when used correctly. The only place they feel overpowered is Novare Coast, because you're forced to fight in the control room to deal with the corner cap exploit. Everywhere else, it's my fault for standing too close.

[Veeius]

Well I still disagree that you should use that just to build rage when those other abilities are on CD,

 

The PRIMARY reason you use force choke has NOTHING to do with rage generation. It has nothing to do with the stun on your target. It has nothing to do with the damage force choke itself does. It is almost entirely all about the fact that it DRAMATICALLY increases the damage smash does.

 

I *wish* it didn't stun my target, the last thing in the world I want is to add to a resolve bar, which would make force push not work.

 

I think a better way to use that is when you are tag teaming with another Rage Jugg or Mara or something and you can each take turns stunlocking them while the other smashes/ravages until players start unsubbing.

 

Interesting, and highly flawed theory. How about 2 powermechs who can actually stun you in series, but have 100% of their damage available to them? When you have 2 warriors (of either ac, not sure why you think 1 mara 1jugg is better than 2x maras) force choke you, 1 of them is doing nothing but choking you for about, oh, maybe 20% of the damage they could otherwise do in the same time period.

 

 

Umm I have to completely disagree here. Force Choke is far superior to Electrocute. Not only does choke build rage but it also ticks three times, meaning you have the the chance to crit on each tick. Electrocute just does it's initial damage and it's one tick base is about half of one tick of Choke.

 

And, with respect, you're completely wrong, and you completely miss the point. When a sorc electrocutes you, they are free to fire addrenals, overcharge and hammer the hell out of you with a long, slow cast spell, because you can't do anything about it. When I force choke you, the ONLY damage I can do to you in that channel is force choke itself, which does very very very little damage. Even if all the ticks critted it STILL wouldn't do nearly as much damage as even a decent vicious slash crit.

 

Look, the mechanics of force choke are intensely stupid. You understand that in order for it to provide any use at all to me, I am forced to channel it, even if they break it? Also, force choke is subject to interrupt, pushback, it halts on knockback or if I get stunned or anything at all like that - it's a BAD mechanic, and that's all there is to it. Given that it roots me, it should ALWAYS at least root my target, and I would argue it should ALWAYS stun my target, reguardless of resolve. If not that, then it should NEVER force me to do nothing but stand there like an idiot. This is my entire argument. It should either always stun you or NEVER stun me.

[Ridickilis]

The PRIMARY reason you use force choke has NOTHING to do with rage generation. It has nothing to do with the stun on your target. It has nothing to do with the damage force choke itself does. It is almost entirely all about the fact that it DRAMATICALLY increases the damage smash does.

 

Actually thanks for that explanation, I see where you are coming from now. Pay no attention to me I completely understand what you are saying now that I just re-read what shockwave and empowering rage do. /self dope-slap.

[TpaulH]

As someone who plays a Jedi Guardian, yes, you do get an "actual stun" in Hilt Strike. You have to trait defensively, you "miss out on damage" but you end up taking a lot less damage. It's a trade off, that's how it is. But Guardians (and I'm assuming Juggernauts but I don't play one so not sure) have an "actual stun" if you trait for it. Also, in that same trait line you can make Force Stasis/Choke not channeled so you can attack and run around while using it. Just throwing that out there. You want the stuns, you trait for them. You want the damage, trait for that. You win some, you lose some

[Derian]

Carbonize/Neural Surge that the Bounty Hunter/Trooper gets is pretty balanced. Its is a PITA mass CC but its only for 1 sec so it is in no form OP.

 

2.5 seconds and it's a stun.

[Veeius]

As someone who plays a Jedi Guardian, yes, you do get an "actual stun" in Hilt Strike. You have to trait defensively, you "miss out on damage" but you end up taking a lot less damage. It's a trade off, that's how it is. But Guardians (and I'm assuming Juggernauts but I don't play one so not sure) have an "actual stun" if you trait for it. Also, in that same trait line you can make Force Stasis/Choke not channeled so you can attack and run around while using it. Just throwing that out there. You want the stuns, you trait for them. You want the damage, trait for that. You win some, you lose some

 

Again, you can't go a decent pvp rage spec if you go so far in to immortal tree to get force grip. There's a veng hybrid that's pretty successful, but there's no good rage spec that will include force grip, it's too deep to get it and the other things you need.

[TpaulH]

Again, you can't go a decent pvp rage spec if you go so far in to immortal tree to get force grip. There's a veng hybrid that's pretty successful, but there's no good rage spec that will include force grip, it's too deep to get it and the other things you need.

 

Which was exactly my point That's the point of skill trees, you trade one thing for another. In this case, you trade damage for a non-channeled grip/stasis, as well as a second stun. I think it's a fair tradeoff, because, me being specced with my guardian for defense, I have great survivability and a few nice stuns, but I don't do very much damage, lol. It's a tradeoff that I think is worth it either way.

[Jeffor]

It breaks on combat, 90% of the time it is broken by some idiot using grenades or smash. It's fine btw.

 

This. Try a sent yourself sometime if you think it is so magical, OP.