LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Recently I read some opinion that suggested that the recent 25% player loss was being attributed to the “poor community” of SWTOR. Now I’ve been an active guild leader, forum follower/poster, and strong gaming community leader for years now, and I have to say that, as a rule, generally the players that post on the forums are some of the most active, passionate and strongest voices in the MMO community. However, also generally as a rule, the people who post on the forums do so because they care, have a vested interest in their game, and because they want to see it succeed, not because they wish to see it fail. Such is my case and many others here. In the past six-ish months that this game has been out, personally I’ve purchased 6 copies of the base game (1 for myself, 1 for my brother and 4 for friends as gifts). I’ve also purchased a number of 60 day time cards for several of my guild officers as thank you gifts for their continued support of the guild and the gaming community in general. I continue to recruit for my guild and haven’t had one single negative experience within my guild, my server or these forums. One important thing to note all round here is that a gaming community goes both ways. The players need the devs and the game. And the Devs crucially need the players to both support and build the community. This is an extremely important symbiotic relationship and it needs to continue in order to foster and build a successful and enjoyable experience for everyone involved in their MMO. I care about this game, as many do. What I’ve seen here take place with the development and direction of this game in the last couple of months saddens me deeply. Like any other relationship that grows, seeing this game struggle the way it has is like watching a good friend hurting, and it sucks. This relationship is essential and is important to continue to build on both sides. While the Devs may wish the player base was less impatient and critical of the game regarding the game’s shortcomings, it also bears noting that like any other relationship the Devs of this game need to be transparent and forthcoming in order for things to grow and trust to be built. Hearing of recent changes to community management and news of the proposed server adjustments to Super Servers is strong and welcome news. The best MMO’s out right now, know that being cooperative and an equal partner to the playing community in both information sharing and suggestion taking is the way to keep building a successful community. I continue to do my part, thank you for showing us that you are still trying to continue to do your part as well. Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomorn Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I post because I read that. No thoughts. Edited May 25, 2012 by Anomorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLonelyTusken Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Good post, I agree. I like how passionate you are about the games as well, don't let whatever incoming trolls get you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 I would just love to see some of that collaboration between player and Dev to continue to be focused on and nurtured again; it's important. Time and time again, we've all seeing gaming companies falter by being cryptic, vague, dishonest and otherwise generally detached from the players, and it's been proven by games like WoW and other successful ones, that an MMO thrives when players get honest and transparent two way dialogue with the Devs. One of the biggest maxims in all of entertainment is to never underestimate the intelligence of the audience. MMO players know, or will know everything about a game company from financial statements to programming and hardware decisions. Most players know what is being currently worked on or planned for the future can sometimes never come to pass, yet frequent transparent dialogue with the target community is crucial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's poor community at all. I do think, however, that it's almost exclusively to do with the low morale caused by low-pop servers, which in turn, is causing a more critical and less tolerant view of minor issues, such as bugs and lack of some desired features. This causes some fairly spirited rants and hate posts on the forum, which has a degrading effect on people even on decently populated servers, and even steers away potential players who are coming here to read up to decide if they even want to purchase the game, thus increasing churn and reducing new accounts. This then causes more frustration overall and ultimately to cancellation. But the root of the issue is low-pop servers. Edited May 25, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I don't think it's poor community at all. I do think, however, that it's almost exclusively to do with the low morale caused by low-pop servers, which in turn, is causing a more critical and less tolerant view of minor issues, such as bugs and lack of some desired features. This causes some fairly spirited rants and hate posts on the forum, which has a degrading effect on people even on decently populated servers, and even steers away potential players who are coming here to read up to decide if they even want to purchase the game, thus increasing churn and reducing new accounts. This then causes more frustration overall and ultimately to cancellation. But the root of the issue is low-pop servers. I disagree. After seeing how many hate posts left open and posts about how people are enjoying the game get closed, it's no wonder that the community is in shambles and it's no wonder why their have been layoffs. I find the moderating of these very forums to be piss poor and it's inexcusable that so many hate threads have been left open. There is also a difference between making a constructive post about the bugs in the game and demeaning the dev team over the bugs in the game in a fit of rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Zhatan_ Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 But the root of the issue is low-pop servers. Not agree at all, the low population is a direct result of a bad/ unfinished game. Most people leaved before the dramatic low population. You have a perfect example at Basilisk Droid server where I started to play. During the first 3 months there was 40 minutes of queues for log, even when they open more servers and raied the cap, the server was healthy ... but the game bored the 80% of the server population , now is rated as one of the dead servers. Take a look at the TORstatus population stads, most of the dying servers are pvp ones, and that is because this game is full pve , so is no a population problem... the population problem is the result of a bad, or to be fair ...not so good game. This game will get a small revival during summer, but the drama will come at September-October whit a massive server merge and implementation of Megaservers, like DCUo. Megaservers is where the "not so good" games goes to die. We heve seen this before, and we will see it in the future. This game is incomplete, wrong planned and the worst of all boring for most of their users (not all, of course) The only thing that is saving it , is the STAR WARS logo in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's poor community at all. I do think, however, that it's almost exclusively to do with the low morale caused by low-pop servers, which in turn, is causing a more critical and less tolerant view of minor issues, such as bugs and lack of some desired features. This causes some fairly spirited rants and hate posts on the forum, which has a degrading effect on people even on decently populated servers, and even steers away potential players who are coming here to read up to decide if they even want to purchase the game, thus increasing churn and reducing new accounts. This then causes more frustration overall and ultimately to cancellation. But the root of the issue is low-pop servers. This is very true. It seems quite odd that despite a massive and successful server stress test just two (maybe 3) weeks before launch, they still added way too many servers in the first week, and leading up to launch were clearly concerned over how their servers would perform. For starters why did they need so many, and why even with the grand number they had did the world still feel empty for people? Clearly the move to Super Servers will be a massive benefit and likely even during off peak times, the servers will still have and be able to support WAY more players than were are able to currently. I only see this as a positive and something that could bring people back in a big way. (Have to be able to support a massive community to have an MMO). Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduardoJN Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 The only ppl that are enjoying this game right now are the ones playing on high populated servers or the crazy star wars fanboys who dont give a damn about it, as long as it is a game about Star Wars. I do love Star Wars, but not a chance in hell that im doing public relations to Bioware for free about a game with several issues with populations and endgame content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wutru Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 @OP. You need to re-assess your life. You're seriously buying time cards for "friends"? Stop buying friendship. Second of all, you are way too passionate for a game. It's unhealthy. Third. We don't even have a community manager anymore. Rockjaw was that guy, and he got laid off the other day. The higher ups that run this game don't care about you or your online social life. Sorry to be so rude, but sometimes the blunt truth helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Not agree at all, the low population is a direct result of a bad/ unfinished game. This is very true as well. Some of the reason I had guildies leaving early was: -Broken chat (hard to group) or be social. -Ability Delay - People want a fluid smooth working game. -Static/un-modable UI - people want to be able to customize their experience. -Linear questing - for a game that encourages alts, the linear questing hurts replay -Poor game performance - my brother was not able to play (after trying) because the game did not work on his computer There were many other reasons as well, but those were the top ones. Still there is room and time to continue to improve the game. And I will continue to be supportive to that cause. Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wutru Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I don't think it's poor community at all. I do think, however, that it's almost exclusively to do with the low morale caused by low-pop servers, which in turn, is causing a more critical and less tolerant view of minor issues, such as bugs and lack of some desired features. This causes some fairly spirited rants and hate posts on the forum, which has a degrading effect on people even on decently populated servers, and even steers away potential players who are coming here to read up to decide if they even want to purchase the game, thus increasing churn and reducing new accounts. This then causes more frustration overall and ultimately to cancellation. But the root of the issue is low-pop servers. I agree with most of what you said, except your reason for the root cause of the issues. The root cause is a badly designed game. If it was good, players would stay, which means there wouldn't be low pop. servers in the first place. Truth needs to be accepted. Swtor will never have the population it once had. Consolidation of servers is necessary now, to stop the bleeding of subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Fantastic post LeonBraun!!! I could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 This is very true as well. Some of the reason I had guildies leaving early was: -Broken chat (hard to group) or be social. -Ability Delay - People want a fluid smooth working game. -Static/un-modable UI - people want to be able to customize their experience. -Linear questing - for a game that encourages alts, the linear questing hurts replay -Poor game performance - my brother was not able to play (after trying) because the game did not work on his computer There were many other reasons as well, but those were the top ones. Still there is room and time to continue to improve the game. And I will continue to be supportive to that cause. I think that's a reason some people left. Couple that with the typical dropping concurrent play, without reducing server numbers, and you'll see the trend really started to drop out the bottom when people couldn't get groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I agree with most of what you said, except your reason for the root cause of the issues. The root cause is a badly designed game. If it was good, players would stay, which means there wouldn't be low pop. servers in the first place. Truth needs to be accepted. Swtor will never have the population it once had. Consolidation of servers is necessary now, to stop the bleeding of subs. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. I've played MMOs for over a decade now, and I think TOR is very well designed and has plenty going for it. Sure, there's plenty wrong with it, the bugs, the lack of some regular features (which really aren't coming any later than the typical MMO introduces them). This game has plenty good about it, too. Enough that it should be maintaining a population at least. I'm willing to bet real money that if every server "felt" full, we wouldn't be seeing a drop in subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think that's a reason some people left. Couple that with the typical dropping concurrent play, without reducing server numbers, and you'll see the trend really started to drop out the bottom when people couldn't get groups. You also have to remember that there are some people who refuse to group because there isn't a system automating it for them:rolleyes: but yes, on the very empty servers I am sure it is very hard to find 3 other players to group with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) You also have to remember that there are some people who refuse to group because there isn't a system automating it for them:rolleyes: but yes, on the very empty servers I am sure it is very hard to find 3 other players to group with This is true as well... I have an officer in my guild (or was I guess) who left the game because of not having an automated group finder. She filled our guild bank with her stuff and left having 3 50's as well as other high level toons. Even in an MMO some people can be somewhat introverted when it comes to finding groups. Some of my best MMO experiences to date, even some in this game, have been from meeting people in the world and doing some group stuff. But that's not for everyone. Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 This is true as well... I have an officer in my guild (or was I guess) who left the game because of not having an automated group finder. She filled our guild bank with her stuff and left having 3 50's as well as other high level toons. Even in an MMO some people can be somewhat introverted when it comes to finding groups. Some of my best MMO experiences to date, even some in this game, have been from meeting people in the world and doing some group stuff. But that's not for everyone. I dunno, I find it childish to have a temper tantrum over an automated tool and threaten to quit a game over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 I dunno, I find it childish to have a temper tantrum over an automated tool and threaten to quit a game over it. There was no tantrum involved... And she is active in our WoW guild; she just spent a lot of time on TOR during off guild hours during the day (as we're a primetime guild), and just did not feel what was left for her engaged her, having already 3 50's and a lot more toons having leveled. She moved on was all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Not agree at all, the low population is a direct result of a bad/ unfinished game. its about 50/50. Edited May 25, 2012 by Frostvein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 There was no tantrum involved... And she is active in our WoW guild; she just spent a lot of time on TOR during off guild hours during the day (as we're a primetime guild), and just did not feel what was left for her engaged her, having already 3 50's and a lot more toons having leveled. She moved on was all. no no, i'm sorry, wasn't meaning about your guild leader. Just in most of these threads in general, sorry about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Just thought I'd post this... One of my replies to another thread that really fits here: You know, some people just want to hear from the devs... Something. Anything. Maybe some introspective on someone's idea, maybe even some humour to lighten the mood. People need interaction with the devs, even if it's not 100% guaranteed info. I just flipped over to the WoW forums just for comparison. I saw 2 Blue responses on their General thread and 4 Blue responses in their Mists Of Pandaria forum. Here are 2 of those by a game designer: "We have not spawned in the vendors for the Dragon Turtles yet. These will hopefully be in the next build. The vendors will be at the Pandaren camps in Stormwind and Orgrimmar." "This is a bug. The kites are in the middle of getting animation updates currently." Is stuff like this so unrealistic to expect from our Devs? Seriously, this is a legitimate question. **EDIT** I just looked back at the WoW MoP Beta forum not half an hour later, and the devs posts have gone from 4 threads to 6... This is what players are looking for in terms of Dev feedback. Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 I really don't think the community here is expecting the Devs to spill all their beans and trade secrets and exact this and exact that. But for quite some time there has been a discernible tension between the Devs and players and it's clear the player base is looking for something more two way and less vague and cryptic. Dev feedback, thoughts, plans, etc. "Today we are working on this" or "Looking into this" or "Our art team is hard at work on new Tier sets and they're looking great so far." Open communication does not always mean needing to divulge 100% guaranteed information. Open communication starts with just being conversational on a one on one level with the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I really don't think the community here is expecting the Devs to spill all their beans and trade secrets and exact this and exact that. But for quite some time there has been a discernible tension between the Devs and players and it's clear the player base is looking for something more two way and less vague and cryptic. Dev feedback, thoughts, plans, etc. "Today we are working on this" or "Looking into this" or "Our art team is hard at work on new Tier sets and they're looking great so far." Open communication does not always mean needing to divulge 100% guaranteed information. Open communication starts with just being conversational on a one on one level with the player base. Well what do you expect them to say that they already haven't to all the ragers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeonBraun Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) Well what do you expect them to say that they already haven't to all the ragers? ^^ Three posts above is the answer to this =) Edited May 25, 2012 by LeonBraun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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