Grammar in Chat

[Bordak]

English, especially in the United States, is a dying language. It has been besieged by regional influence, laziness, the internet (communicative technology as a whole), illiteracy, and a primary/secondary curriculum that, instead of narrowing the focus of what our children learn, has a tendency to cram as much information as possible into their heads to "prepare" them for the world at-large... which really just force feeds them JUST enough knowledge to pass tests as opposed to actually preparing them for college and beyond.

 

In all honesty, with the melting pot so many regions of the world have become, and the fact that English isn't the primary language of a large percentage of the people we may meet during our gaming experiences, grammar is, in my opinion, much less important compared to the message. If the context may be gleaned from any given sentence or phrasing, then why do punctuation, capitalization, spelling, structure, etc.. matter?

 

It doesn't. Unless, of course, you are in an educational institution that feels it to be a professional duty to correct improper grammar. There's also more than a few vocations that frown upon the perceived "murdering" of the language necessary to work in that particular field. Then again, there are also a few (unfortunately, VERY few) parents/families that put a certain amount of importance on speaking properly. That's speaking... not so much writing, in most cases.

 

In most other things, it really doesn't matter. Correcting someone's diction on the internet, when you fully understand what the individual is attempting to convey, IS elitist. It's to invoke a feeling of superiority of some sort. It doesn't make the person doing the correcting out to be anything more than an over inflated gas bag. Attempting to "teach" someone the error of their ways online is a bit like chastising a deaf person for not speaking clearly... not knowing they are deaf, nor caring.

 

The person you are attempting to correct may be young, foreign, challenged, lazy, a troll, or maybe just made some mistakes while applying their passion to "paper". Regardless, if it makes people feel better by attempting to point out someone's mistakes... meh. Leave them to it. It's not worth fighting over when there are more important things like: American Idol, Jersey Shore, Yemen, Syria, and what flavor of Dairy Queen Blizzard really IS the best!

[krisknife]

Thinking you can judge people by how they write, speak or use any form of language is foolish plain and simple. Seriously people why is everyone so quick to judge a person in the first place these days? Language use and grammar just seems to be another excuse to justify feeling superior , kudos, I will take the high road.

 

Poor grammar can be a pain to read, this is a given for anyone not just the anal compulsive. What's more of a pain though is hearing people complain about it , like it makes a difference, and them actually "putting down" other people for it. We play to have fun, not deal with drama, jive?

 

You really need to go back and watch that clip, you are not protecting language you are killing the game for everyone else with stuff like this. Have professional grammar in appropriate areas and try not to impose your will on others, it''s rude.

[LoKiei]

I purposefully use the grammer/spelling of a 12 year old in in general chat. It makes me feel good that it infuriates at least one person.

[RavenDT]

So I want to discuss something. And it might turn into a flame war but know that is not my intention.

 

Bad idea posting this on SW:TOR forums. At this rate, you may as well post on 4chan or Reddit. -- LOL

 

When I write something and make a mistake; I immediately backspace and fix it. No matter what, no matter where. This is a habit from all of the papers I have written during my scholarly career. And it is a habit that transfers to my texting, Facebook, everything.

 

I wish more people would do that.

 

If a person does not use proper grammar, punctuation, or capitalization at a basic level in a chat where they are simply standing and chatting (not in combat), then one of the following possibly applies to them.

 

Oh, so you're a college student? Please share with us your infinite life wisdom. --Willy Wonka

 

(a). They are younger than 15. Maybe even older than that. The person has not reached an age where they are expected to write perfectly, and especially not on a computer. They probably aren't asked to write papers, copy notes, etc. In America 15 is approximately 10th grade on the high school scale. Most high schools are not completely integrated with computers, nor can they expect their students to all have computers, etc.

 

A.K.A.: Lame Excuse #1 -- In Elementary school, a student learns how to spell basic words and know the difference between your and you're, there, there, their and they're, to, too, and two.

 

(b). They are older than 30. And grew up not really being expected to type or process words. They might hold a job where they are not expected to do so either. Someone who is 30 was born in 1982, and was 18 in the year 2000. School computing was definitely not as developed, and University computing was only a few steps ahead. Computing was also still relatively expensive.

 

A.K.A.: Lame Excuse #2 -- I've owned a computer ever since I was 3 years old, back in 1987. I have always had access to the highest degree of technology in my neighborhood. I don't produce any literary marvels, but anything I do write I still try to use the best grammar I can. When I write anything on my computer, I see that dreaded red squiggly underline, and I check and recheck that word. That red squiggly line appears once or twice per document I produce, because I will admit, nobody is perfect. Spell-check is supposed to be an aid, not a crutch.

 

©. English is not their first language. Can't really blame anyone for that. They might be using a foreign keyboard, they might be code-switching. Who knows what stage of Language Acquisition they are in. But people who fall into this category usually make more obvious mistakes than punctuation.

 

Reasonable Excuse #1 -- I can get behind this statement; however, I can say that generally a lot of people who learned ESL in a foreign country tend to speak it and write it with more correctness than the typical American.

 

(d). They are not College educated. They could be 18-24 and never went to college, working your basic minimum wage job. This person is not really -asked- to use good typing skills in there everyday environment.

 

A.K.A.: Lame Excuse #3 -- I am 28 years old, never went to college, and have better grammar than most that have. In the words of Charlie Sheen, "BOOM! WINNING!"

Grammar Error: Their -- Shows possession, as opposed to there -- a place. That's a 50 DKP minus.

Fail: Failing at grammar in a post about improper grammar. (x2) for a total of a 100 DKP minus.

 

(e). They don't care. And argument that I 100% do not buy. For reasons I have been discussing this whole time. Habits are hard to break, and if you are not in a habit of typing eloquently, then that really is a reflection of you as a person. This goes true as someone not showering, shaving, getting a haircut, or washing their clothes.

 

Reasonable [unreasonable] Excuse #2 -- This claim gets made all the time, and it's a crap-shoot.

 

My personal belief is that no matter which medium you choose, whether it be a speech, letter, internet post, or even a casual conversation, you are judged based on your diction. If you talk like an idiot, my first impression of you is that you're an idiot (please note the use of the contraction "you're" based on the words "you" and "are," for those of you who are unfamiliar) and you lack a decent high-school education. I know people who grew up in the back-woods of Tennessee and North Carolina (states known for their piss poor education), people who dropped out of high-school, and still have better grammar than most people who have obtained their high-school diploma.

 

Besides the English as a Second Language (ESL) excuse, I really don't see any other for tlaking liek a noob cuz ur n idipt!

 

This is America, and you have the right to be an idiot. I also have the right to treat you like one.

 

And as always, have nice day. --FPS Russia

 

PS: An interesting YouTube from SourceFED on the "Autocorrect Generation"

[ohpleasework]

Reading through this thread depresses me.

 

I care greatly about this matter because I believe that differential literacy is one of the primary drivers of the class stratification we all see taking place around us. I know that sounds like a really bold claim, but bear with me.

 

I have spent most of my life in an academic environment. After college I went to law school and then graduate school. I taught university classes for couple years. I have been coaching high school debate for around fifteen years, and I coached collegiate debate for a few years in grad school. I have worked with debaters from a variety of different backgrounds at several different types of schools.

 

I have observed three things:

 

1. It seems that fewer and fewer young people have strong written communication skills. This should come as no surprise to anyone here.

2. The writing skills of my public high school students run the gamut from incredibly strong to pitifully weak. Across the board, my students at competitive private high schools show apt skill in written communication.

3. Without exception, the people I know who achieve the societally-venerated benchmarks of academic/professional success, the ones who I feel certain will do very well for themselves in life, are those with strong written communication skills.

 

Without exception, the students I know who have gone to ivy league schools are those with excellent written communication skills. I have known some bright kids who were not good at communicating in writing, but none of them ever ended up at Dartmouth. I do not know where all my college students ended up, but all those I do know who went off to professional schools had excellent written communication skills. Every single student of mine who I know ended up in law school or business school or medical school had strong written communication skills. The same is true of all my law school classmates, for that matter. I had a student who won a competition for an enormous grant to start her own nonprofit venture. She was easily one of the best writers I have worked with, and I am sure that played a large part in her ability to put together a winning grant proposal.

 

Maybe you do not care about any of this. Maybe you never aspired to go to an ivy league school. Maybe you think that people who correct others' homophone use are snobs. Well, here is why it matters:

 

Whether you aspire to these things or not, they are overwhelmingly seen as good foundations for a life of financial security and success.

 

What I find particularly troubling is the circularity that I see between these two things. I feel increasingly like the socioeconomic stratification in our society mirrors and contributes to our differential levels of literacy. I see kids from well-off families who go to exclusive private schools leaving with skills that will allow them to do whatever they want in life. I also see kids at public high schools who are really bright, but far too few of them develop the skills that will allow them to succeed in life. If your law school admissions essay uses numerals in place of prepositions, the committee is just going to laugh and throw it out. Even the manager at the local Best Buy wants to hire someone literate enough not to use apostrophes to pluralize words, lest they find themselves with a makeshift sign telling customers that "Samsung's are sold out."

 

I envision a society thirty years from now that is significantly more stratified with significantly less room for upward social mobility, where most of the population is borderline illiterate (if you prefer, we could call it something friendlier like "internet literate") and all the doctors and lawyers and investment bankers come from the class of wealthy, fully literate people who went to private schools; a class mostly made up of the children of the literate students I see off to prestigious colleges and professional schools today.

 

Computer science grad here. Language skills are pretty bad in my territory. My professors in college were some of the worst offenders.

 

I earn a solid middle class salary, about 90k before bonuses and such in Southern Virginia - which by my estimates equates to about 150k in major cities. I haven't cleared less than six figures in a number of years. A lot of my friends often lament their status in life, why they can't move up or even find good jobs, despite being way more educated than myself. They all have terrible grammar.

 

If you can't be bothered to know the language you speak at an elementary level, how do you expect to ever move up in life? You're functionally useless beyond "worker bee" status.

[Bluestone]

This is America, and you have the right to be an idiot. I also have the right to treat you like one.

 

This is the internet. It's pretty international.

[Yardbird]

i'm old, pretty well educated, and luv to be lazy in teh chat

[Groncho]

The moment one US citizen says " America" u know theres a cultural BlackHole behind the keyboard

Besides, who cares about grammar when you are the only one logged in a server......

[zxckakel]

How much grammar is needed for: LFG HM ESSELES?

 

L.F.G. HM Esseles. You're welcome.

[Granted]

 

(d). They are not College educated. They could be 18-24 and never went to college, working your basic minimum wage job. This person is not really -asked- to use good typing skills in there everyday environment.

 

Go!

 

Hello neighbour. I would like to point out that you made the error of using "there" environment instead of "their". This was originally my only intention but as I typed the word neighbour I noticed my spell checker alerting me that the British way of spelling "neighbour" is incorrect and that I should drop the u. So if I understood correctly you are an American. I wish to know whether you use the British spelling eg. colour, programme or the American spelling respectively. Of course you will know that "American" is now being deemed a language by some people instead of what I should be referred to as American English.

 

It is clear that there are many different forms of a language, with the aforementioned example being ample evidence thereof. Obviously in languages, especially when using technological text-based forms of communication, there is plenty of jargon used and colloquialism is found abundantly. It was surely stated previously in this thread that the informal writing/ typing used outside of work is substantially different to the strictly-business formal writing/ typing that is to be expected in the workplace. Along with the written language comes the speech, surely one would not speak with the same formality when chatting to a friend as when addressing colleagues during a meeting or conversing with a client. This is a conscious decision to speak formally instead of informally. The same can apply to writing or typing, you can consciously make the choice to remain professional at work but be more carefree during your "free" time. As far as habits go I believe everyone has different work habits to household habits and sure to an extent they can overlap but this I feel is rather down to the person-in-question's personality . People avoid using proper language on the internet generally to type more efficiently and save time. So basically it could depend on whether you are a person that can separate your work habits from your personal habits.

 

I will admit that I am one of those people who will correct someone if they make a grammatical error when speaking with me IRL but only if I know the person quite well. I would certainly try to refrain from correcting someone I don't know well as it can come across as being a bit of a snob. I would agree with you on that only if someone repetitively made the same grammatical error would I send them a whisper. Remember that some people are more habitual and others less so.

 

 

TLDR : Some people are more habitual than others. The language and speech you use at work can be very different to that which you use at home. It depends more on the overlap between their work habits and personal habits or lack thereof.

 

Personally I type formally sometimes and other times informally. It depends entirely on how much effort I wish to put into typing.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Grammar in MMOs is going to be different than traditionally accepted English grammar. Gamers have invented their own shorthand in MMOs, and use it to be effective in the game.

 

If you take a look at this statement, "lfg hm maelstrom fp" and think you are better than them simply because you put "Looking for group: Hard mode Maelstrom Prison flashpoint" there is something really wrong with you. This is not a term paper, or a resume. It is just someone trying to find others to play the game with.

 

This thread is full of a bunch of elitist D-bags. Just because an individual doesn't use proper grammar does not mean they are void of the intelligence required to use said grammar. They just couldn't care less whether or not they impress you.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Brittaany_Banks

[Fubarge]

wut is a nurfherder? for reals.

[RavenDT]

By the way, I think a lot of people are missing the point.

 

It's not the fact that people type 'lol' or 'rofl' or "LFG HM Esseles."

 

These are accepted internet/gaming short-hands.

 

It's when you are carrying on a conversation that does not require the use of these short-hands that people's lack of elementary grammar is apparent.

 

Sample Conversation:

Player 1: Anybody know where the mount vendor is?

Player 2: your an idiot. theirs a map for a reason!

 

I rest my case.

[RavenDT]

This thread is full of a bunch of elitist D-bags. Just because an individual doesn't use proper grammar does not mean they are void of the intelligence required to use said grammar. They just couldn't care less whether or not they impress you.

 

So by your logic, after you are done using the bathroom, you don't wipe your backside because you don't care about impressing anyone. You know how to wipe your backside and you are an intelligent person, but you decide not to because you're too lazy and could care less about what other people think of you.

 

Excellent point! </sarcasm>

 

Think of proper grammar as verbal hygiene. And we all know how people with poor hygiene get treated...

[Brittaany_Banks]

So by your logic, after you are done using the bathroom, you don't wipe your backside because you don't care about impressing anyone. You know how to wipe your backside and you are an intelligent person, but you decide not to because you're too lazy and could care less about what other people think of you.

 

Excellent point! </sarcasm>

 

Think of proper grammar as verbal hygiene. And we all know how people with poor hygiene get treated...

 

First, the ACTUAL phrase you are looking for is "couldn't care less". Second, nice straw man argument. You thought I wouldn't notice what you tried to do there did you? Address the god damn subject instead of going off topic.

 

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[Fubarge]

nvm. i googled it. a nerf herder is actually just someone who herds nerf's.

[Tomb-Stone]

Reality Check. The OP is not superior due their writing skills, but instead inefficient with their typing skills. We're not writing dissertations or term papers. In PVP I don't need to write an elegant sonet about how our team needs to protect the west door in Voidstar when I can simply type "West Door!" and people will understand that they need to defend the west door ASAP.

 

tldr; It's about being efficient with your typing, not writing term papers.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Reality Check. The OP is not superior due their writing skills, but instead inefficient with their typing skills. We're not writing dissertations or term papers. In PVP I don't need to write an elegant sonet about how our team needs to protect the west door in Voidstar when I can simply type "West Door!" and people will understand that they need to defend the west door ASAP.

 

tldr; It's about being efficient with your typing, not writing term papers.

 

This x1000. It's about practicality. If my team loses because someone was busy writing out a sentence about how we need more players on the west side otherwise it will get overrun and we will lost the objective I'm gonna be pretty upset.

 

OOPS I USED BAD GRAMMAR THERE. -100 POINTS!

[Kendu]

honestly who gives a shiat, its a daam game.

 

p.s. ( i'll like my fries extra crispy, lots of salt...and extra cheese on my burger when you get off break)

 

[Kendu]

Maybe you do not care about any of this. Maybe you never aspired to go to an ivy league school. Maybe you think that people who correct others' homophone use are snobs. Well, here is why it matters:

 

Whether you aspire to these things or not, they are overwhelmingly seen as good foundations for a life of financial security and success.

 

Hmm i have financial security, and success. I own and run my own business and have for quite a few years now. I did it all on my own, without having to go into debt with anyone. (and nope im not in construction or "hard" labor job)

Best part, i have 1 year of college and it had nothing to do with what i do now , lol.

I must be the exception to the rule.

 

My point is, i don't care about any of this because i don't have to.

 

I think all you pretentious d-bags need to get the rubber dongs out your *** and realize one thing.

 

If it wasnt for the "worker bees" doing their thing...you wouldnt have all the nice things that make you comfy and warm inside.

 

This is me saying ..I.. to you all Have a nice day.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Hmm i have financial security, and success. I own and run my own business and have for quite a few years now. I did it all on my own, without having to go into debt with anyone. (and nope im not in construction or "hard" labor job)

Best part, i have 1 year of college and it had nothing to do with what i do now , lol.

I must be the exception to the rule.

 

My point is, i don't care about any of this because i don't have to.

 

I think all you pretentious d-bags need to get the rubber dongs out your *** and realize one thing.

 

If it wasnt for the "worker bees" doing their thing...you wouldnt have all the nice things that make you comfy and warm inside.

 

This is me saying ..I.. to you all Have a nice day.

 

They never will. They have a mental checklist of things they consider that makes them "better" than the "average" person. Once in their mind they have these things checked off they will FOREVER believe themselves superior. No amount of facts tossed in their direction as to why they are wrong will ever sway their decision on that.

 

It is not JUST the grammar crap. It is how much money they make, the kind of car they drive, where they live, the type of family they come from, the college they graduated from etc.

[Kendu]

They never will. They have a mental checklist of things they consider that makes them "better" than the "average" person. Once in their mind they have these things checked off they will FOREVER believe themselves superior. No amount of facts tossed in their direction as to why they are wrong will ever sway their decision on that.

 

It is not JUST the grammar crap. It is how much money they make, the kind of car they drive, where they live, the type of family they come from, the college they graduated from etc.

 

This is true, must be a sad and lonely materialistic life.

[FlyinSpaghetti]

There, their, they're

Than, then

"merges" is not a word, you're looking for "mergers"

 

It only bothers me when people don't know third grade grammar. That and a calvacade of logical fallacies, but most people don't know they're committing them.

 

Spelling and grammar isn't important in a small chat window, you get no extra points for doing so it just wastes time where shorthand can be more effective if understood.

 

There are sometimes where the system will require you to spell correctly, one instance I missed the "L" from "republic" spelling "repubic" and the system seems to have the word "pubic" as a swear word.

[Sauska]

They never will. They have a mental checklist of things they consider that makes them "better" than the "average" person. Once in their mind they have these things checked off they will FOREVER believe themselves superior. No amount of facts tossed in their direction as to why they are wrong will ever sway their decision on that.

 

It is not JUST the grammar crap. It is how much money they make, the kind of car they drive, where they live, the type of family they come from, the college they graduated from etc.

Hmm, the martyr squad seems to be checking in...

 

There's nothing wrong with valueing correct grammar and spelling, although I'd never judge someone with a poor grasp of either as an inferior person. Having said that, I'd probably not hire someone who sent me a letter of application riddled with mistakes. However, we're talking about grammar and spelling in chat here. As annoyed as I get by the use of leetspeak and the zillion mistakes made in chat, I've come to accept it's apparently part of the game. As long as the message gets accross, it'll have to do

[Brittaany_Banks]

Hmm, the martyr squad seems to be checking in...

 

There's nothing wrong with valueing correct grammar and spelling, although I'd never judge someone with a poor grasp of either as an inferior person. Having said that, I'd probably not hire someone who sent me a letter of application riddled with mistakes. However, we're talking about grammar and spelling in chat here. As annoyed as I get by the use of leetspeak and the zillion mistakes made in chat, I've come to accept it's apparently part of the game. As long as the message gets accross, it'll have to do

 

I never said there is anything wrong with valuing it either, but it is different in a game as opposed to a job resume, and yes I'd expect the person that has disgusting grammar on their resume to NOT get a job either. Most people in this thread seem to be lumping them together and it's not right. They assume that because they use poor grammar in the game that somehow it translates to their level of intelligence out in the real world. I can't explain in enough words how that is such a BS assumption.