Define: Success

[DarthWoad]

Success meaning getting the money?

 

or success meaning making a great game and making the players happy?

[Blistrich]

success meaning making a great game and making the players happy?

That's success, because once you have a great game that makes players happy, subs grow over time.

 

This was the case with Warcraft, EVE Online, and Dark Age of Camelot.

 

Because they are/were good, word spread, more people try them, more people realize how good they are, more people sub. The worst thing to happen to MMO gaming has been the "unpolished product cash grab". Just hype it, get it out the door, rake in the cash from the boxes and early subs... then sit back and "administrate" it's slow death.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Blistrich

[EzoEo]

Success is doing better than they expected. So if Bioware expected 500k subs and have 1m then it's a success.

 

There is different things that make a success such as launch day going smoothly etc.

Edited May 24, 2012 by EzoEo

[fallenjedi]

Doing the best job they can within the parameters of their workplace for the purpose of keeping their jobs so they can pay their bills and have a life.

[Blistrich]

Doing the best job they can within the parameters of their workplace for the purpose of keeping their jobs so they can pay their bills and have a life.

That's not success. That's "barely getting by".

 

You seem to have remarkably low standards... or no ambition.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Blistrich

[DarthWoad]

Doing the best job they can within the parameters of their workplace for the purpose of keeping their jobs so they can pay their bills and have a life.

 

probably this

[fallenjedi]

That's not success. That's "barely getting by".

 

You seem to have remarkably low standards... or no ambition.

 

No, it's called being tuned in to reality. If I am told to do X task within 20 hours and then task Y within 20 hours or my butt is going to be laid off or fired...then I get tasks X & Y done in 40 hours (or faster if possible).

 

I define success as being able to provide for family. However, that success is dependent upon a thing called a job where I report to someone that tells me what to do, how fast to do it, and ultimately decides if it was a good enough effort. Not everyone can be Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Mark Zuckerberg.

 

((btw as a Vice President and partner in a profitable software company my ambition seems to be doing fine))

[DiabloDoom]

Such a subjective word, I guess anything that isn't a complete flop financially.

[Jenzali]

That's not success. That's "barely getting by".

 

Being the 2nd largest MMO and nearly tripling their original expected number of subs is definitely much more than "getting by".

 

Just because a game isn't as big as WoW doesn't mean it's a failure. Otherwise other every game ever made would be a "failure".

[AuckaLukaum]

Keep in mind that every MMO, past or present, is the "worst MMO ever made," produced by developers who are stupid, lazy, incompetent, actively out to steal your money for minimum investment, and who, above all, harbor resentments and grudges towards specific classes, races, or factions.

 

Also, every MMO currently on the market, is going out of business next week because of any of the above.

 

Don't believe me? Decide whatever it is you feel is the best MMO on the market right now, and go to their official forums, then go to Amazon, GameStop, MetaCritic, or wherever, and read the customer reviews. You will see exactly the same sort of overexaggerated sky-is-falling scenarios there as you do here.

 

In my mind, this game is pretty successful. Certainly no less so than any other game currently available.

[Ironcleaver]

In this day and age, Id imagine "success" means a game is retaining enough subscriptions (or microtransactions) to sustain employment in, devlopment, support, and enough to at least maintain current technology and maintenance levels. Of course a percentage for profit, but a lot of companies conciter success breaking even as well, so either is fine but profit is prefered. Most mmos break even with initial box sales, some even pull ahead with some profit at that time as well.

 

All companies want a smash hit but it almost never happens, that's just part of the risk.

 

TOR:

Even if we are to believe the 300 million number for TORs devlopment (which we know is bunk but I'll run with it anyway). We will also say they sold 2 million copies at launch, which might be lowballing it (including box and digital). Thats 2 million copies at release and an average $75 per sale. Give or take thats roughly 150 million in raw sales at release. Say there was a 75% retention for the first subscription fee.. that's another 22.5 million.. Even if the game has lost 75% every month.. the money adds up pretty quickly. 22.5m, 16.875m, 12.65m, 9.5m, 7.1m... around 68.65m + sales of 150 and we are already hitting 218.65 million... Remember this dose not account for new people buying and entering the game after the initial sale.. This is important since box sales boost capital faster then subscription fees.. one box sale is roughtly 4 or 5 months worth of sub-fees. It also dose not reflect server, bandwidth, employment and building mainteniance costs.

 

unscientific extrapolation result - I'd bet they have made back their initial investment and devlopment costs by now, if they haven't, they should be close. I, like many thers, feel the game cost no where near 300 million to produce.. I'd have to give it a ballpark of 80 to 180 million.. yeah a wide field still but no where near 300 million.

 

Was TOR successful... Sure... Dose it have staying power? We don't know yet.. :-/ Remember though, WoW was complete garbage it's first year and riddled with issues which were poorly managed.. People are only remember WoW 5+ years after release...

[Ironcleaver]

Just because a game isn't as big as WoW doesn't mean it's a failure. Otherwise other every game ever made would be a "failure".

 

Quoted for truth. People always seem to forget this.

[rbkrbk]

Success in the business world means making the most money in the shortest amount of time. The reason for this is because the longer an investment is held, the risk of loss increases exponentially.

 

This is what EA does. I do not agree with it, but that's how Capitalism works. You can argue all you want about how it "should" work, which I will agree with, but the Business world is not a sparkling Unicorn that burps marshmallows and farts rainbows and sunshine.

[trussasp]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/success?s=t

[Nitewolfe]

Swtor is not successful on any front.

First financially...Before t his last earnings call PR spin the numbers were 500k to break even (that is just to pay the bills).

1 million to make a profit that as BW themselves said it would be nothing to write home about.

Offical numbers for last earnings call was 1.3 million and that was padded by free trials and the free 30 days people.

Actual paying subs could very well be lower than 1 million.

The recent announcement of layoffs proves that BW is not making a profit.

 

Second is the game successful as a game... If the game had been marketed as a single player game then i would label it a success game play wise. But as a mmo flat out failure. There was zero use of lessons learned from other games in in the market.

5 years to develop and get rel4ease right and they still fell into the common trap of opening to many servers to cover launch hype. Lessons learned should had told them that this was going to be a issue and they had FIVE years to work on it!

Like it or not the mmo genre has turned towards larger cross server communities. This should had been part of the plan from the get go.

graphics that IMO are sub par for a late 2011 release.

Character customization that is also subpar for this time frame. This includes character creation, barber shop tools and lack of appearance slots.

 

Face it.. SDwtor was released into the current market and they have to compete for market shares against games that have all these tools now. Regardless of if those games had those tools at their release or not they do have them NOW in the market that swtor has to compete in.

 

The whole server issue floors me that they act like they did not see it coming. This could had been handled in several ways.

My idea would had been to not have any permanent servers for the first several weeks and open temp servers as needed to handle launch hype numbers. After that ever one gets a free transfer to the perm server of their choice.

The perm server list would had been published on the server list just not open so people would have weeks to plan on where they would end up. Giving players the ability to plan ahead to be with friends and guilds that came over.

 

That is just one idea i am sure some one smarter than me could come up with others. But the fact is that NOTHING was planned to handle what they should had known was going to be a issue from the start.

 

This whole game is a failure to learn from other peoples mistakes.

[DiabloDoom]

Even if we are to believe the 300 million number for TORs devlopment (which we know is bunk but I'll run with it anyway). We will also say they sold 2 million copies at launch, which might be lowballing it (including box and digital). Thats 2 million copies at release and an average $75 per sale. Give or take thats roughly 150 million in raw sales at release. Say there was a 75% retention for the first subscription fee.. that's another 22.5 million.. Even if the game has lost 75% every month.. the money adds up pretty quickly. 22.5m, 16.875m, 12.65m, 9.5m, 7.1m... around 68.65m + sales of 150 and we are already hitting 218.65 million...

 

Yep, that's $218m directly into their pockets. You clearly don't take out Tax, VAT, wages, service and maintenance, cost of production, distribution, the massive % that retailers take from sales, etc etc etc. Income tax on dividends alone would of been around 40%. Yep, companies don't ever have high expenses which would leave them with 10-20% profit, they just keep everything ...

Edited May 24, 2012 by DiabloDoom

[psi_overtake]

... The recent announcement of layoffs proves that BW is not making a profit. ....

 

No, that proves that you don't pay attention to the reasons behind the layoffs.

[rbkrbk]

Yep, that's $218m directly into their pockets. You clearly don't take out Tax, VAT, wages, service and maintenance, cost of production, distribution, the massive % that retailers take from sales, etc etc etc. Income tax on dividends alone would of been around 40%. Yep, companies don't ever have high expenses which would leave them with 10-20% profit, they just keep everything ...

 

For cryin' out loud man, it's WOULD HAVE, not WOULD OF. You're right though, all of the variables you listed come into play. You did leave out one of the big ones though, which is the 30-35% paid to Lucas Arts to use the IP.

Edited May 24, 2012 by rbkrbk

[DiabloDoom]

For cryin' out loud man, it's WOULD HAVE, not WOULD OF. You're right though, all of the variables you listed come into play. You did leave out one of the big ones though, which is the 30-35% paid to Lucas Arts to use the IP.

 

I actually remember my mother telling me off for that and oh yeah GL, forgot about him lol.

[Sirsri]

Success meaning getting the money?

 

or success meaning making a great game and making the players happy?

 

Money. Though one follows the other, you can't make players happy if you have to shut down the game due to lack of money.

 

The games business is just that, business. Yes, we have this creative side of trying to explore new concepts, new worlds and tell interesting stories. But in the end the people who do all of that work, and put all of the rock and trees in those worlds need to be paid. If you have no money, there is no world.

 

I consult on a lot of smaller indie/mobile/handheld type stuff on the side, and some of those games are hugely popular with the 5000 people who bought them. That gives you warm fuzzy feeling inside to have worked on them. And as long as you only spend half a dozen man months on the project whether or not it makes a pile of money, or just manages to break even and pay the bills with government subsidies is good enough. But if you only sell 1000 copies there isn't going to be a followup, no matter how rabid your fan base is. When you are the size of bioware with a payroll of 5 million dollars a month just for development for something like SWTOR it's a whole other ball game. If your revenue comes in at 3.5 million you're going to have to lay off a LOT of people and when that happens it doesn't matter how happy the people who gave you the 3.5 million dollars are, it's still miserable.

[Ironcleaver]

Yep, that's $218m directly into their pockets. You clearly don't take out Tax, VAT, wages, service and maintenance, cost of production, distribution, the massive % that retailers take from sales, etc etc etc. Income tax on dividends alone would of been around 40%. Yep, companies don't ever have high expenses which would leave them with 10-20% profit, they just keep everything ...

 

Here is the part -you- edited out..

 

It also dose not reflect server, bandwidth, employment and building mainteniance costs.

 

If your going to quote someone quote the whole thought, not just a few sentances to make a point... If anything you got me on not adding "Ect... ect.. ect..." But the point was still clearly made that the listed amount did not include all expenses... I could add a dozen more things to your list, but see how I'm not?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Ironcleaver

[Evironrage]

In the sub-based MMO market a constant 500k-1million subbers per year and the consistent creation of new content to entice more players to sample your game. Edited May 25, 2012 by Evironrage

[DiabloDoom]

Here is the part -you- edited out..

 

 

 

If your going to quote someone quote the whole thought, not just a few sentances to make a point... If anything you got me on not adding "Ect... ect.. ect..." But the point was still clearly made that the listed amount did not include all expenses... I could add a dozen more things to your list, but see how I'm not?

 

Dude if I were to list everything, it would of been a guess, and it would of been a list with hundreds of items ... Talk about generalisation?

 

Also I said services and maintenance and wages ...

 

The fact is until I indicated that there were an abundance of expenses taken from that figure you came up with, you thought that it all went back into their pockets. So don't try and now lecture me on accounting, I run a small business and have an HND in Business and Accounting.

Edited May 25, 2012 by DiabloDoom