codyr Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) You are still making this about elitists vs casuals. Its so transparent. Elitists and your perception of them have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with this. Bioware developed and tuned the content with minimum gear requirements for completion. Thats how a level based gear progression designed and developed game works. Having a tool, designed by the same developers, set the standard actually REMOVES the human aspects of players policing the gear gate them selves thus avoiding much of the drama and hard feelings. The requirement is there for anyone to see. Want to do "X" content, this is what you need to do gear wise to run said content. this. if the tool doesn't do it automatically, the players have to do it, and the people who feel entitled to skip to the end start throwing out the "elitest" canard. elitests didn't make the Rancor enrage after 3 minutes, or make the Foreman Crusher smash tanks for more health than a new 50 even has. the developers did that. and they did it because they don't want fresh 50s to finish that content. they want them to burn through other stuff first so that they don't have an entire playerbase beating the end-game on the same day they reach level 50. actual bona fide elitests don't use LFG tools because they form premades with like minded people. but for everyone else who's done their time grinding out the gear they need to tank the Foreman Crusher, it's a huge letdown if the LFG tool matches them up with someone who believes they deserve to run the content because they just hit 50. Edited May 22, 2012 by codyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Criosdh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hmm, that's strange.. All these threads from people saying that a LFG tool would make everyone more social and build up the overall SWTOR community because it would allow *all* players to group up and enjoy the game in an atmosphere where you didn't need to spend forever looking for specific people in order to do FPs. Now we see that it's yet another way to shun players who aren't up to whatever arbitrary standards set by a minority. What do you want next? A mandatory upload of each potential group member's latest combat log so you can scrutinize it before they join? Maybe a checkbox for only those with Bio? Maybe a Founder's only option so those newer players who aren't worthy of you can't participate? You basicly said what I was going too lol. The LFG windows is a way for bad people to force others into their groups. If having a constant supply of raids/etc was such a high priority with them then they'd join a raiding guild and problem solved. The LFG too is a way for low lifes to get put into a group with random people that they can spew on at will. LFG tools should never be added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzytoad Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Having a tool, designed by the same developers, set the standard actually REMOVES the human aspects of players policing the gear gate them selves thus avoiding much of the drama and hard feelings. ??? And as I've stated multiple times, i have no problem with that. The OP didn't say that. He didn't indicate that the tool itself would decide, just the players who would have to carry the "bads". He was then supported by a number of other players who feel that "bad" players should be excluded based on their gear as decided on by the "good" players. The aspect of it being automated by the LFG tool itself wasn't even brought up until I mentioned it. I see this Elitist attitude in the game every single night. Certain groups who do LFG announcements in General for FPs/OPs and then proceed to publicly ridicule the gear of people who *dare* to try and join these groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seregul Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 forget gear check, bolster the stats like its done in WZs, the lfg tool shud do that I like this idea. It could go both ways too, you can bolster up or down depending on the content (de-bolster? holster????). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilosoldier Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I see this Elitist attitude in the game every single night. Certain groups who do LFG announcements in General for FPs/OPs and then proceed to publicly ridicule the gear of people who *dare* to try and join these groups. Its all perception bud. There will be "elitists" regardless of a LFG tool and there will be "bads" whom want to get carried as well. None of that changes with a LFG tool. The funny thing is that people like you who group so many players into one, easy to vilify, group so you can bash on them saying "Bad Elitist" is by the very definition of the word, elitist in nature. Thats some deep irony to chew on no? That social dynamic is as old as MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) I was actually the first one in the thread to mention level gating and that I'd have no problem with it.. I was still attacked by elitists who proceeded to tell me that since they couldn't do EV storymode in green gear that it was impossible to do and groups shouldn't let players in green gear hold them back. That's elitism. It's also incredibly incorrect, but that's a different issue. Your taking it all too personally I think.. As much as I am not a fan of geared based games SWTOR is what it is and those gates are there for a reason... take a look on fleet and look how the various vendors are tiered.. that for me was the first thing I noticed.. it meant that I had goals to achieve to get that gear and that gear has a purpose. I much prefer building toons with open stat ranges and bonuses that can then be enhanced by tweaking gear... but the advent of crafting all manner of weopns and gear in MMO;s has played a huge part in shifting the emphasis to gear for some time now.. The sooner you understand what and why there gates are there for the sooner you will start to see beyond them.. then you posting might start to be less and less of a rage against machine kinda thing. On the other habd you could just keep getting into groups, keep getting steamrollered in a few hits, keep having players /ignoring you etc etc..then again you could just set your own criteria and put your own LFM up. But the trouble is Pugs can be tricksy at the best of time.. that's why I always join one or run one with a simple rule in mid.... ALWAYS expect.... THE UNEXPECTED! But others dont always think the same way and want to cover all the bases in order to effect a successful completion and avoid as much drama as possible in doing it - thats not specifically ELITIST thats just their preference .. I or they are not in the game to hand hold anyone. Edited May 22, 2012 by Bloodstealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzytoad Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The sooner you understand what and why there gates are there for the sooner you will start to see beyond them.. then you posting might start to be less and less of a rage against machine kinda thing. On the other habd you could just keep getting into groups, keep getting steamrollers in a few hits, keep having players /ignoring you etc etc..then again you could just set your own criteria and put your own LFM up. The trouble is Pugs can be tricksy at the best of time.. that's why I always join one or run one with a simple rule in mid.... ALWAYS expect.... THE UNEXPECTED! But others dont always think the same way and want to cover all the bases in order to effect a successful completion and avoid as much drama as possible in doing it. omg I understand why the gates are there. I agree with the gates being there. I have NO PROBLEM WITH THE GATES. I have a problem with Players having the ability to exclude other players based on what gear they are wearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) By the time a player is level 11 he/she knows that green gear is near garbage. No level 50 is going to be so under-geared that this tool would be necessary. If you think that they must have only the top gear then yes, you are discriminating and shunning players who might do fine in an operation despite not having the perfect gear. Also, most of the content in the game can be done under-geared if you are good enough at playing your class. I've soloed heroics in less than perfect gear. It's the player and his spec that matter the most, not the gear. We don't need a gear check tool. Edited May 22, 2012 by Blackavaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patsilver Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm sitting here remembering all the "must have ************* gearscore or you can't come" posts in WoW in game chat. The constant flame wars in game and on the forums, everyday all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilosoldier Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 omg I understand why the gates are there. I agree with the gates being there. I have NO PROBLEM WITH THE GATES. Ok. This is good. I have a problem with Players having the ability to exclude other players based on what gear they are wearing. Then we have this. This invalidates everything you said in the first part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) omg I understand why the gates are there. I agree with the gates being there. I have NO PROBLEM WITH THE GATES. I have a problem with Players having the ability to exclude other players based on what gear they are wearing. Huh.. then you DONT understand WHY the gates are there Are you happy to enter a Denova HM only to keep failing it time and time again with groups... This is not something that is player driven... its driven by the very nature of the quest/raiddesign.... is that really so hard to comprehend? Yes in other games the ELITIST vs the Casual is more rampant.. I understand your pain, I have been on both sides of that equation many times in the past, but like I said.. test the theory yourself.. get a group together (a random Pug)... no specifics just pick a decent challenge and see what happens.. then go again, then again, then again... when your tired of hitting your head on the desk, you may start to see where your ELITIST rubbish starts to fall down!!! Edited May 22, 2012 by Bloodstealer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzytoad Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Ok. This is good. Then we have this. This invalidates everything you said in the first part. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilosoldier Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 How so? /facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I dont know what is more funny, the possibility that bioware is going to release an lfg tool with no gear check, or the fact that the anti lfg cult is trying to latch onto a gear check as some sort of way to keep the casual player down lol this is going to be an entertaining day. Its just like wow or rift, you do the lower fp's to get in to the higher fps. Its not about keeping anyone down, the harder flashpoints are deisgned for players with a certain gear level. There is nothing holding back a casual player from using the lfg tool to gear up so they are able to do the other fps. If anything, the lack of an lfg tool would hold that player back from ever seeing the harder fps before he quit the game out of frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 /facepalm You palm the one side.. I will do the other, when we get the rhythm right we can add the odd chin dunk on the desk as well.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codyr Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) How so? because players have to be the ones doing the excluding if the game doesn't do it itself. you understand and agree with gear gates, but you don't think players should enforce them. but the game doesn't, so who should enforce them? the ravages of lost time with repeated and fruitless wipes? Edited May 22, 2012 by codyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilosoldier Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 You palm the one side.. I will do the other, when we get the rhythm right we can add the odd chin dunk on the desk as well.... My my...how elitist of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I dont know what is more funny, the possibility that bioware is going to release an lfg tool with no gear check, or the fact that the anti lfg cult is trying to latch onto a gear check as some sort of way to keep the casual player down lol this is going to be an entertaining day. Its just like wow or rift, you do the lower fp's to get in to the higher fps. Its not about keeping anyone down, the harder flashpoints are deisgned for players with a certain gear level. There is nothing holding back a casual player from using the lfg tool to gear up so they are able to do the other fps. If anything, the lack of an lfg tool would hold that player back from ever seeing the harder fps before he quit the game out of frustration. What I find amusing is that players arguing for or against it dont seem to realise that facility is in game already, and being used for the very same reasons - so whether its included in the LFG or not... it will still be there to be used .... So what's the fuss and why wasn't it an issue that was rife on these forums before yesterday..... or if they were, why repeat it again and again now we have a screeny onwhat it might look like/include... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 My my...how elitist of you! Eeek.. apologies... the chin dunk gave me away... should of settled for the ear pulling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch_TwentyTwo Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hmm, that's strange.. All these threads from people saying that a LFG tool would make everyone more social and build up the overall SWTOR community because it would allow *all* players to group up and enjoy the game in an atmosphere where you didn't need to spend forever looking for specific people in order to do FPs. Now we see that it's yet another way to shun players who aren't up to whatever arbitrary standards set by a minority. What do you want next? A mandatory upload of each potential group member's latest combat log so you can scrutinize it before they join? Maybe a checkbox for only those with Bio? Maybe a Founder's only option so those newer players who aren't worthy of you can't participate?What's strange is that no one saw this aspect coming. Anyhow, not really that bothered. The "cool kids" can have their little "you're -3 on Endurance, you're out" clubs and I'll just continue to play with my guild, where skill beats gear everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdob Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 We don't know if there is a gear check or not yet, so let's not jump to conclusions. What we do know, is that BW wants the game to be fun to retain subs. Therefore, we can assume they don't want... 1) undergeared folks getting discouraged by failing to complete content 2) undergeared folks causing properly geared folks from failing to complete content 3) undergeared folks clashing with geared folks socially due to #2 So, I would speculate there is some form of gating in LFG, either gear based or progression based (completing all Normals FPs to get into HMs and completing all HMs before being allowed into OPS) If not, that's what the PTS is for. I like this game and I have faith in BW. Am I the only one on these forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzytoad Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 because players have to be the ones doing the excluding if the game doesn't do it itself. you understand and agree with gear gates, but you don't think players should enforce them. but the game doesn't, so who should enforce them? I agree that the game itself sets limitations on players, excluding them from content. I have absolutely no problem with that. If a group of 3 players is looking for another player to run thru an HM FP, and that player meets all the criteria for entering the HM, has level-appropriate gear and meets the role looked for by the group, I have a problem if one or 2 of the players decide to exclude that player simply because he's wearing a blue earpiece instead of a purple one. That's the garbage that goes on *right now* in the game without an adequate LFG system.. If the new LFG system includes a feature which automatically pops up the gear to the others in the group and allows them to boot him based on arbitrary elitist nonsense, I'll have a problem with it. If there really is an issue with someone's gear that will cause problems for the whole group, then the group should discuss that with the person trying to join instead of just kicking him out without educating him or at least giving him a valid reason.. "I couldn't do EV storymode in green gear, so you can't come with us" is not a valid reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabaal Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) I wouldn't touch the PvE aspect with a bargepole but it's nice to know that if i ever felt like it one night i'd be kicked for being in Full War Hero. You want fully geared people in your raids? Then don't use what is basically a PUG tool. Edited May 22, 2012 by Kabaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kilosoldier Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 What's strange is that no one saw this aspect coming. Anyhow, not really that bothered. The "cool kids" can have their little "you're -3 on Endurance, you're out" clubs and I'll just continue to play with my guild, where skill beats gear everytime. Sure. Thats the beauty of the game there are various ways to play and enjoy them. Opting out of things you dont like is the way to do it instead of the self entitlement that "everyone should conform to me even though I run against the grain and against the way the game is designed." Its a win for everyone involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ritchied Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I like this game and I have faith in BW. Am I the only one on these forums? no... you arent the only one lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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