No Gear Check in the LFG tool?

[kilosoldier]

When did a discussion about 'gearscoring' become one about 'geargating'.

 

Geargating is a barrier to content created by devs, gearscoring is a barrier to content created by players.

 

Edit: I'll concede your point about having completely green gear and going in over your head, but we all know that isn't the sole example of exclusion that 'gearscoring' leads to.

 

No but its the thing I and most of those arguing for the gear check are saying.

 

Make sure that people meet the minimum average of gear level to complete the instance.

 

That average should be drawn from the minimum gear level of 4 equally geard characters to have a chance at successfully completing that raid or instance.

 

Thats all anyone here has been saying yet the vitriol, strawmen and ad hominems from he other side are out of control.

 

This is a logical, common sense request if they are implementing the LFG tool.

[RoboRope]

The pictures Bioware released of the LFG tool didn't seem to include a gear check of any kind. What is preventing a level 50 in all green gear from queuing up for Devona or HM Lost Island?

 

The last thing we need is spending an hour in a queue for a group only to get stuck in a group that doesn't even have the gear required to complete it and having to start over.

 

A gear check is very important or you will have many frustrated and annoyed players.

 

Clarification: I want a built in feature incorporated into the LFG tool that restricts what you can queue for based on level and gear rating. I do NOT want the restrictions players generated (like they CURRENTLY are in the game). Since the devs have created a gear gated game (enrage timers, tiered content, etc...) then it is obvious to me that they need a way to enforce such gating, which the preview of the LFG tool failed to show.

 

Simple solution don't pug and join a guild. Now **** and ****!

[Vellusix]

It will probably be a learning experience for a number of people at first, as they begin to realize what they need in terms of gear, specs and tactics for various FPs.

 

I know on the servers I play on, there's already helpful people in place that try to educate players on what they will need for certain things.

 

What we don't need is a tool that allows other players to refuse other players based on something as arbitrary as gear choice. All it does is split the community and form elitism separation.

 

If there was some base score that the LFG tool could automatically use to warn players that they may not be suited for the mission, then that's a different story. Allowing other players, who will absolutely misuse such a system, to exclude players based on gear(or stats, or specs, or hairstyle, or whatever) is a bad idea.

 

Furthermore, I think the comment in the original post of: "Please Bioware don't make the fatal mistake of trying to make the bads happy." Clearly illustrates how and why such a tool would actually be used.

 

"Something as arbitrary as gear choice" WHAT? Rofl I seriously wonder how some people get by in life.

 

Here's the situation, I'll talk real slow so people can understand.

 

1) You need a certain level of gear to complete flashpoints and OPs (duh).

 

2) If you don't have the bare minimum gear requirement you won't be able to complete the instance.

 

That's as simple as it gets. Adding a gear check adds nothing that isn't in the game already. People already inspect and approve based on gear alone. If you don't understand this then... I feel sorry for you.

 

By all means though feel free to sign up for a LFG tool where there is no 'gear check' and see how far you get when you've got a tank and healer in greens. The same people that complain bizarrely about 'gear exclusion' will be the first to come back to the forums and complain that content is too hard.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Vellusix

[Ganrax]

When did a discussion about 'gearscoring' become one about 'geargating'.

 

Geargating is a barrier to content created by devs, gearscoring is a barrier to content created by players.

 

Edit: I'll concede your point about having completely green gear and going in over your head, but we all know that isn't the sole example of exclusion that 'gearscoring' leads to.

 

This was never a discussion about 'gear scoring' it was a discussion about why there isn't a Gear Check in the LFG tool to stop players from queuing for content they are not geared enough for(a DPS in Tionese gear queuing for a Hardmode Lost Island for example). It should absolutely be set by the developers, and it should be the minimum gear required to effectively complete the instance in question.

 

It is becoming a discussion about Gear Score and elitism because some people can't understand the concept that content in this game requires a minimal amount of gear to complete it and you don't just jump right into the hardest content with no gear.

[Lymain]

Make sure that people meet the minimum average of gear level to complete the instance.

 

It's not really that simple when you consider PvP gear, augments, ect.

[Kalfear]

Hmm, that's strange..

All these threads from people saying that a LFG tool would make everyone more social and build up the overall SWTOR community because it would allow *all* players to group up and enjoy the game in an atmosphere where you didn't need to spend forever looking for specific people in order to do FPs.

 

Now we see that it's yet another way to shun players who aren't up to whatever arbitrary standards set by a minority.

 

What do you want next? A mandatory upload of each potential group member's latest combat log so you can scrutinize it before they join? Maybe a checkbox for only those with Bio? Maybe a Founder's only option so those newer players who aren't worthy of you can't participate?

 

This is exactly why I dislike Raiding and dislike the direction of games since WOW hit seen.

 

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

I really hate the gear mentality that WOW brought about!

 

Even in EQ2 they didnt have gear restictions (oh the elitists found other restictions on how looting and raiding worked but gear wasnt one of them).

 

Really miss the days where skill and ability and class knowledge mattered.

 

Now a days skill and knowledge seems to be replaced by gear score!

 

Personally im always chaseing the virtual carrot of better stuff so I will never run into the "your not geared right" whine. But like in EQ2 and like in Rift, I see some elitist complaining about someones gear and excluding them, ill also drop from group as rather not have anything then help those types gain anything.

 

Glad EAoware didnt put in a gear check.

One of their smarter moves.

[kilosoldier]

It's not really that simple when you consider PvP gear, augments, ect.

 

IT really can be a simple formula.

 

Base it on raw primary stats and tertiary stats. Dont make it about some item level on the gear.

[Darkulous]

The pictures Bioware released of the LFG tool didn't seem to include a gear check of any kind. What is preventing a level 50 in all green gear from queuing up for Devona or HM Lost Island?

 

 

You're asking BW to develop a sophisticated Tool-like Feature for multiplayer. That is outside their expertise. There is a reason this game had almost no multiplayer features at launch and the ones that were there (GTN, Guild Interface) were blah. Is this what happens when a Single PLayer developer makes MMOs? I wonder if Elder Scrolls Online will have the same inadequacies.

[Lymain]

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

In the case of Denova and Lost Island it does, since those zones are designed for gear beyond level 50. Our characters may be stuck at level 50, but gear is continuing to level up beyond 50 much like it did pre-50.

[kilosoldier]

This is exactly why I dislike Raiding and dislike the direction of games since WOW hit seen.

 

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

I really hate the gear mentality that WOW brought about!

 

Even in EQ2 they didnt have gear restictions (oh the elitists found other restictions on how looting and raiding worked but gear wasnt one of them).

 

Really miss the days where skill and ability and class knowledge mattered.

 

Now a days skill and knowledge seems to be replaced by gear score!

 

Personally im always chaseing the virtual carrot of better stuff so I will never run into the "your not geared right" whine. But like in EQ2 and like in Rift, I see some elitist complaining about someones gear and excluding them, ill also drop from group as rather not have anything then help those types gain anything.

 

Glad EAoware didnt put in a gear check.

One of their smarter moves.

 

I am almost certain that a gear check will be implemented with the LFG tool.

 

I see you canceled anyway so it shouldnt matter to you one way or another. Hopefully next time you get involved with a game that suits your needs and play style because there was not some big secret how gear progression worked in this game prior to release.

[Vellusix]

This is exactly why I dislike Raiding and dislike the direction of games since WOW hit seen.

 

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

I really hate the gear mentality that WOW brought about!

 

Even in EQ2 they didnt have gear restictions (oh the elitists found other restictions on how looting and raiding worked but gear wasnt one of them).

 

Really miss the days where skill and ability and class knowledge mattered.

 

Now a days skill and knowledge seems to be replaced by gear score!

 

Personally im always chaseing the virtual carrot of better stuff so I will never run into the "your not geared right" whine. But like in EQ2 and like in Rift, I see some elitist complaining about someones gear and excluding them, ill also drop from group as rather not have anything then help those types gain anything.

 

Glad EAoware didnt put in a gear check.

One of their smarter moves.

 

So what you're saying is you're happy to sign up for a LFG tool that doesn't have a gear requirement? Whether you like it or not, or realise it or not (you don't), every end game flashpoint/OPs has a minimum gear requirement that you need to meet otherwise it's flat out impossible to complete it regardless of skill (this has been the case for every MMO ever invented. MMOs are about levelling and character progression through gear, if you don't like that then why are you playing one?).

 

Edit: My favourite buzz word in this thread so far is 'exclusion'. It's pretty amazing how far people go to try to contort arguments with false logic.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Vellusix

[kilosoldier]

Edit: My favourite buzz word in this thread so far is 'exclusion'. It's pretty amazing how far people go to try to contort arguments with false logic.

 

Yea. Its, in all honestly, pretty entertaining to watch the discourse evolve.

 

Its mostly new and old strawmen being erected to support claims of elitism and exclusion. Hell even one of the early vocal opponents conceded after a while.

[codyr]

a new level 50 tank in quest appropriate gear will have something like 12-13k health. a columi geared tank will have upwards of 19k health. to spread the content out, the developers will make a boss hit for 18k, ensuring only a columi geared tank can survive it. that's how gear-gating works, and without the game blocking people from entering content they're not geared for, the responsibility lies with the players to do the gear-checking. it's as simple as that, and there's no elitism involved.

[kilosoldier]

a new level 50 tank in quest appropriate gear will have something like 12-13k health. a columi geared tank will have upwards of 19k health. to spread the content out, the developers will make a boss hit for 18k, ensuring only a columi geared tank can survive it. that's how gear-gating works, and without the game blocking people from entering content they're not geared for, the responsibility lies with the players to do the gear-checking. it's as simple as that, and there's no elitism involved.

 

Not just that but the developers leaned on DPS checks like a crutch from hell with their use of enrage timers. The enrage timers are another obvious use of the gear check by the developers.

[DizzD]

This is exactly why I dislike Raiding and dislike the direction of games since WOW hit seen.

 

The only type of condition that should be required to raid/pvp/what ever is you have gear to level (IE I understand why people would complain about a lvl 50 wearing lvl 25 armor, that makes sence. Complaining the have green lvl 50 stuff doesnt)

 

I really hate the gear mentality that WOW brought about!

 

Even in EQ2 they didnt have gear restictions (oh the elitists found other restictions on how looting and raiding worked but gear wasnt one of them).

 

Really miss the days where skill and ability and class knowledge mattered.

 

Now a days skill and knowledge seems to be replaced by gear score!

 

Personally im always chaseing the virtual carrot of better stuff so I will never run into the "your not geared right" whine. But like in EQ2 and like in Rift, I see some elitist complaining about someones gear and excluding them, ill also drop from group as rather not have anything then help those types gain anything.

 

Glad EAoware didnt put in a gear check.

One of their smarter moves.

 

No offense, but your entire post is so completely off base it's frankly difficult for me to believe that you are in fact an MMO vet as claimed.

 

I was a guild/raid leader in EQ2(and other games) for years and any guild remotely involved in progression sure as **** has gear requirements.

 

For all the casual players who don't understand anything about MMOs let me explain WHY you have gear requirements with a real world analogy that anyone should be able to understand:

 

If you show up to your team's softball game wearing a suit, tie and dress shoes, YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO PLAY! You will NOT be helping your team by showing up without the proper gear. IN FACT YOU WILL HURT YOUR TEAM'S CHANCE OF WINNING BY INSISTING TO PLAY WITH IMPROPER GEAR.

 

South Park Ski Instructor style: "Show up to play with improper gear...and your gonna have a bad time."

 

Without gear check there will be 2 outcomes for most HM and some Storymode stuff:

1. Stick with the group you're dealt and fail for hrs.

2. Replace half the group/raid if you want to win, which defeats the purpose of having the tool to begin with.

 

 

p.s. NONE of this will even matter unless server population issues are solved first...so yeah.

Edited May 22, 2012 by DizzD

[RoboRope]

Join a guild play with people you know if you pug then you get what you get.

How about they just scale the instance to the group that way gear becomes irrelevant, problem solved.

 

The only time gear should matter is if you're running things on hard mode.

[Darkulous]

Awsome, now we can wait for hours for a group to form that isn't properly geared.

[Lord_Karsk]

You know OP, the reason to do FP etc is to get actual GEAR .Doing FP in swtor in greens is np.

Doing Denova in greens is a disaster yes, there i agree.

[ZudetGambeous]

I don't know how this discussion turned into a elitism vs not elitism thread.

 

This wasn't something that was up for debate. Tier 2 content requires Tier 1 gear. That's how it was designed. There is really nothing to argue about.

 

If you want to argue with the devs that all content should stay tier 1, then that is fine, but this is not the place for it.

 

The fact of the matter, and really the only matter for this thread is that content is gear gated but the LFG tool is not. This was a simple oversight that I am trying to bring to the attention of the devs before it turns into a disaster.

[Ganrax]

You know OP, the reason to do FP etc is to get actual GEAR .Doing FP in swtor in greens is np.

Doing Denova in greens is a disaster yes, there i agree.

 

I don't see anyone here saying that you should have full Rakata to run a Tier 1 Hardmode Flashpoint, in fact the people that did say specifically what the requirement should be said the minimum. Anyone that expects their group to be in full Columi to complete a Tier 1 HM is an idiot, but that doesn't mean there still isn't a minimum requirement. Someone in level 40 quest gear at level 50 is NOT going to be useful in a HM and their group would have to compensate or replace him. There is no case in SWTOR's endgame where you "can't get gear because you don't have gear" that requires you to get carried to get your gear. There is a clear path to follow, if you are skipping steps then you are likely going to be under geared.

[Darkdoe]

I don't know how this discussion turned into a elitism vs not elitism thread.

 

Unfortunately Gear score leads to elitism. No matter how well intentioned or what purpose devs hope it gets used for it pretty much always leads to "oh well your gear score is only xxxx, you can't raid with us"

 

Come up with a way gear score can be used without leading to this and I'll back it with as much vigor as the next guy.

[eatumup]

Join a guild play with people you know if you pug then you get what you get.

How about they just scale the instance to the group that way gear becomes irrelevant, problem solved.

 

The only time gear should matter is if you're running things on hard mode.

 

^ this...

It's a pug. Pugs are a simple crap shoot. I used to call them a "challenge". Even if it was a total loss it was fun trying to see if we could beat the odds sort of speak. So yeah, Ill sign for a no gear check tool. Even used to play that way in the dreaded WoW. As for hard mode, If your gonna pug one, then you get what your handed. Its a game. Don't treat it like the fate of the empire rests on it and it will be more fun.

 

As for instance scaling, Wasn't that one of the advertised features of this game? That the instances would scale difficulty and loot according to the the members of your group? If they actually use this feature, It won't matter if your tank is naked. The possibility of completing the instance will remain although it may be more difficult.

[DarkDisturbed]

I don't see what the big deal is, we have inspect. I'll just inspect each player when I get in the flashpoint/operation and if their gear isn't good enough, I'll leave.

 

Problem?

[Darkulous]

I don't see what the big deal is, we have inspect. I'll just inspect each player when I get in the flashpoint/operation and if their gear isn't good enough, I'll leave.

 

Problem?

 

You got no group again.

 

The whole problem with this game is that players can't find groups. So BW puts out a Half-assed GF tool that will cause people to quit their groups more than anything. Strong work.

[kilosoldier]

Unfortunately Gear score leads to elitism. No matter how well intentioned or what purpose devs hope it gets used for it pretty much always leads to "oh well your gear score is only xxxx, you can't raid with us"

 

Come up with a way gear score can be used without leading to this and I'll back it with as much vigor as the next guy.

 

It has nothing to do with "gearscore" for the love of........