XionoraSoulfire Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) As a raid leader, i see the usefullness of this tool.Though i also see its negative sides. It's handy for me to keep track of who is actually pulling their weight.But i am afraid people will be focused on their numbers too much and lose valuable attention during a raid on boss mechanics etc. It also brings a form of elitism (Not always true, and its around without recount either) I would support this in raids, but ONLY raids, i would not like to see this in 4 man flashpoints due to people generally being rude and such there. Also at the end of WoW, i found myself not using recount anymore cause it fels obsolete, you know you play with a group of people that pull their weight, so there was no real need for it in the end anymore. I also have to say i have played Games before WoW, and post-WoW that did not have this feature, and that went fine also, i do not see a NEED for recount, but as a raid leader it can come in handy. That being said, i support this to an extend, but not fully.Perhaps a middle ground like DCUO did. Edited December 14, 2011 by XionoraSoulfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouku Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I support recount for 2 main reasons: 1. Self Improvement. All the data will help me to improve thus be more valuable member of my group / guild as well as have more fun due to having a clearer path in working through obstacles. 2. Makes it easier to weed out and replace the bads. The ones who are unable to improve and often times end up halting progress and causing break ups of entire groups and even guilds. If they dont get it on their 5th or 10th repeat its time for a boot. Tools such as these make it easier to deal with this aspect of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovronius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) That's not what I said. I said it didn't cause them to behave worse than they would have.. Well if you want to split hairs on this one, you said "behave differently" which is neither a negative or positive indicator or relative to their play style, real life behavior or.. well anything. Without the meters, they weren't looking around to interrupt or click items either.. Generally, without the meters, downing the boss is the primary focus.. Winning the fight and getting the loots.. With the meters.. #1 DPS becomes the primary focus for a lot of people.. wiping or not, touting that spot matters just as much to a lot of people (and a lot more for some) since its a personal achievement and not a group achievement. I think it'll create a worse discrepancy, given that the most elite will spend more effort on it, not less. They'll know where they stand, and what to do, and everybody else will be far behind. This will be hard to predict until we know where they balance things.. If they balance it with the guilds you see on MMO Champion the day after content patches, then yes. Generally though in the "Good sells better than best" world, I don't see them doing this. Well, I'm not, and I don't want to ruin my immersion in the game trying to pay attention to what everybody else in my group is doing. I'm not talking about watching your group mates with a fine toothed comb.. but when you group with person A, and stuff goes smoothly, and you group with person B and the same thing is exceedingly more difficult.. it's pretty easy to figure out. That's what always bothers me about the immersion people, you seem to want me to PAY LESS ATTENTION to what I consider the interesting part of the encounter and more to oversight of the group. I don't see how statistically breaking down everyone's damage and pouring over what other people are doing wrong is any less oversight. I think the misconception here is that I don't understand or value your side of the debate.. Which I assure you sir.. I do. and honestly, whatever the majority wants (to a point obviously) is what Bioware should do. It is just my opinion with my own experiences bringing me to my conclusion, that in general people would end up enjoying the game more at the end of the day without them. (Or end of month, once the DPS meter withdrawls faded ; ) ) Edited for cleanliness : P Edited December 14, 2011 by Bovronius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docfranz Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I am still a NO for dps meters you didnt need the becuase when "you are the Bomb" you got away from your group dpsing the boss not stand there and blow everyone up cause your dps would go down ...(fight ends) ...(changes dps filter to deaths) ...(finds culprit and gives him a stern talkin to) ...(win) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) No, never liked recount. The problem is it leads to stupidity, people not following instructions or burning at the wrong times and then using their numbers to justify it not realizing that their miniscule gain over the rest of the DPS is actually a detriment to the rest of the group/raid. It's the same problem you get with standardized tests. Just like how in the end, all it does is force teachers to teach how to take the test, not the true knowledge that is supposed to be being tested, in the end all recount does is train you to play the numbers, not the game. Then that person is bad. It has nothing to do with the meter. You should take the appropriate steps. I am pretty sure its safe to say it has lead to more people being better at what they do then the morons who stare at meters and not at the encounter. Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosse Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If the meter accounted for ccing then maybe. Who does the most dps doesn't mean who is helping the group the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selestian Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) If the meter accounted for ccing then maybe. Who does the most dps doesn't mean who is helping the group the most. Yes that is obvious. Only people who do not know what they are talking about look at the meter the way you just stated. Meters show much more than just DPS. Current meters in WoW pretty much show everything you would want to ever know. Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No, never liked recount. The problem is it leads to stupidity, people not following instructions or burning at the wrong times and then using their numbers to justify it not realizing that their miniscule gain over the rest of the DPS is actually a detriment to the rest of the group/raid. It's the same problem you get with standardized tests. Just like how in the end, all it does is force teachers to teach how to take the test, not the true knowledge that is supposed to be being tested, in the end all recount does is train you to play the numbers, not the game. Those people are predisposed to do stupid things anyway. Recount may act as a catalyst but eventualy something else will. Basicly what i see you saying there is " recount makes people stupid" wich is , as im sure you'll agree after thinking about it a while a missconception. Smart players wouldn't allow recount to baitr them into doing something like that , stupid players will. It comes down to not playing with stupid people and recount, a diagnostic tool, does not define player skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovronius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If the meter accounted for ccing then maybe. Who does the most dps doesn't mean who is helping the group the most. CC can be done through combat log announcements. "Tabspammer has awoken "Angry Bounty Hunter01"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docfranz Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Back to what I said earlier. This only happens if your Guild/Raid leader is weak. If he's a strong leader then you'll only show up late maybe twice, then you'll be looking for another guild. Your logic seems flawed sir. Guy shows up and appears geared. Guy pulls bad dps for w/e reason. Group wipes due to enrage timer. Whodunit? Guild leader says "WAIT, my spider senses are tingling, player (x) is the cause of our failure! For my spider senses can see through someones gear and I can magically see their numbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copter Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Do we really HAVE to start this again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Your logic seems flawed sir. Guy shows up and appears geared. Guy pulls bad dps for w/e reason. Group wipes due to enrage timer. Whodunit? Guild leader says "WAIT, my spider senses are tingling, player (x) is the cause of our failure! For my spider senses can see through someones gear and I can magically see their numbers... Ms. Cleo CALL ME NOW FOR A FREE READING!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docfranz Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Ms. Cleo CALL ME NOW FOR A FREE READING!!!! I lol'ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I lol'ed Damn.. I want to play dammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaiAtillar Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Then that person is bad. It has nothing to do with the meter. You should take the appropriate steps. I am pretty sure its safe to say it has lead to more people being better at what they do then the morons who stare at meters and not at the encounter. It's not a person in particular. It's far more widespread than that. Look, the simple truth is in my experience, more people are ignorant than not. They find this little tool, and it says they're doing well when they aren't, but they have that magic little number they can now use as justification and you just can't get a bloody argument past that. And yes, you kick them and move on. But you face an uphill battle where the uninformed masses have this number that justifies everything. And it's not one or two, it's the majority of the server. So now you have the designers making battles based around it because if you don't, well these number-worshippers complain to no end. And there's more of them than there are of you. And suddenly every boss is a DPS race followed by a sea of people self congratulating. I was a theorycrafter. I know the value that things like recount can bring. But after many years of dealing with meters, I've realized they do far more harm than good. Edited December 14, 2011 by jaiAtillar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgard Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Recount is fun... For myself, at least, it gives me a chance to challenge myself while leveling. I like to try to beat my previous fights DPS every time I kill something. Is it necessary? No. But then again, almost everything that can be labeled as "quality of life" is unnecessary. Eventually there needs to be a meter of some kind in game, simply because a lot of people want to use one. Definitely not a #1 priority, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sernon Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Numbers should stay under the hood as they always have, why should it be pushed like drugs unto others, when it's not necessary. It is a bad habit transplanted from another game, number crunchers should stick to their own thing, instead of turning the interface into a calculator. I don't want this, for it is intrusive, and push play styles imported from another game into the visible area of this game. It's not a common practice, for a reason. If we had looked for a spreadsheet game, it should say so on the box. Don't force your hobbies into the interface, taking it one step too far. Numbers begone! --- Edited December 14, 2011 by Sernon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Numbers should stay under the hood as they always have, why should it be pushed like drugs unto others, when it's not necessary. It is a bad habit transplanted from another game, number crunchers should stick to their own thing, instead of turning the interface into a calculator. I don't want this, for it is intrusive, and push play styles imported from another game into the visible area of this game. It's not a common practice, for a reason. If we had looked for a spreadsheet game, it should say so on the box. Don't force your hobbies into the interface, taking it one step too far. Numbers begone! --- Your comment makes no sense. How does it bring a play style from another game? How does it make it a spreadsheet game? As someone previously stated there is already a combat log so there will be a way to gauge damage. If you do not like it don't use it. All it does is make information that is already there easy to see. Why do you have an issue with making things easier? Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleDroidZ Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Anyone that has been in a competitive PvE guild will tell you; for top tier, endgame raid encounters, recount is an absolute necessity. Much more so for progression fights where a certain level of performance is expected. Not just in regards to potentially imbalanced damage done, but things like damage taken, dispels, and other possibly critical information related to the fight. If you took avoidable damage, it's important to know where it came from, and how much. This is very true. At one time I was in the top guild on our server and recount or any log parsing is invaluable. How much damage is the tank taking, who's using CCs, who's doing how much damage and to which target, and yes some times DPS is important. If a boss has X health and DPS is given a Y timeframe to beat the enrage timer, if they can't make that goal then that's important to know. The simple reality is that if there is a combat log written somewhere, then someone will write a parser for it. If that isn't provided as an in game tool, then it will be done through an out of band process. Whether that's done in near real time or after raiding is completed, tools like recount will exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Do we really HAVE to start this again?But ... but ... there has to be some truly magical property associated with beating on the same thing over and over again that will yield different results. There HAS to be! Otherwise why would intelligent and educated people continue to do it? Edited December 14, 2011 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navycrow Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Well the only way i would aggree to recount being in this game is if it only showed that individual dps to them that it no one else's. i dont care if a smuggler is 5% higher than me why because all class are balance around a 5% marker or are soppose to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Itharius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 It's not a person in particular. It's far more widespread than that. Look, the simple truth is in my experience, more people are ignorant than not. They find this little tool, and it says they're doing well when they aren't, but they have that magic little number they can now use as justification and you just can't get a bloody argument past that. And yes, you kick them and move on. But you face an uphill battle where the uninformed masses have this number that justifies everything. And it's not one or two, it's the majority of the server. So now you have the designers making battles based around it because if you don't, well these number-worshippers complain to no end. And there's more of them than there are of you. And suddenly every boss is a DPS race followed by a sea of people self congratulating. I was a theorycrafter. I know the value that things like recount can bring. But after many years of dealing with meters, I've realized they do far more harm than good. This didn't happen in WoW, and it wouldn't happen in SWTOR. Your claim to have been a "theorycrafter" doesn't disguise the weakness of your argument against damage meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsyloSatan Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) If the player is in your guild, you should have played with them enough to gauge their skill level. If you're randomly selecting people from your Guild's pool of 500 players.. sorry but you're doing it wrong. If they're in another guild, then you're PUGing them. You gotta work new people in sometimes. Thats the reality of leading the raid. The fillin is not always going to be what you are hoping for. Also, some times the people you raid with will slack. Then they wont admit it. Doesnt make them a bad person IMO but if you eliminate their ability to lie they will fix their problem with more enthusiasm. The leaders job is to motivate the raid. Allowing one person to just utterly have no clue is rude to the rest of the raid. edit: unless it is previously stated so people at least know what they need to do to compensate. Edited December 14, 2011 by PsyloSatan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No thanks. I can gauge my improvement by the speed in which I kill a mob or my ability to kill harder mobs. I'll pass on recount I don't need to find out if I improved my dps by 0.083% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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