So I think I've had it all wrong on the Defense Guardian in PvP

[Marqhill]

So I was trying this spec out...

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500RrGdudrzczZcMRZM.1

 

I was considering possibly switching back to a Defense spec for my Guardian so I tried using it to kill some random mobs on Ilum. As it turns out... it's actually not bad. In fact, in terms of damage output it's actually pretty freakin' good. Keeping in mind that I'm in full DPS gear (mostly war hero partially Battle Master and some Modified orange gear with level 58 mods/armoring) I would like to make a couple of comments about some of the elements that make it so good.

 

Durability: Obviously the defense tree is designed for Soresu form. So you're going to survive quite a bit longer. But the defensive talents in this tree are no laughing matter. I've been using Riposte quite a great deal more often when I'm in my DPS spec and with the additional 6% defense chance you get from Guard Stance it more than doubles you chance for this ability to proc while protecting you from a small amount of damage. Nothing wrong with that. My base defense was sitting at 11% and when I use Riposte it jumps up to 17% thanks to Blade Barricade. I have no issues using this ability on cool down because it only costs 1 focus. It also does a decent amount of damage 1.5 to 2k damage is the norm with riposte in DPS gear and it doesn't waste a global cool down.

 

Additionally I don't know how people complain about Blade Barricade. If you use blade storm on cool down, which you should, then you'll have an additional defensive bubble available to you every 12 seconds... and usually this ability is either free or only costs 1 focus.

 

I don't think I need to say too much about Warding Call though. When I pop this ability it pushed my damage reduction from 47% to 87%. It's an absolutely amazing invincible button.

 

Damage output: Keeping in mind that I'm in all the same PvP gear it makes sense that my damage pretty much stays the same. A big difference between this spec and Vigilance spec is that I don't have as much control over my critical hits as I do in vigilance. But the trade off is your durability which I mentioned above. The overall abilities that make a Guardian do tons of damage are pretty much the same (sundering strike, master strike, force sweep and dispatch) but some of these abilities change in how you use them and other defense tree specific abilities become incredibly important.

 

Guardian Slash is actually an incredible tool for damage output. A lot of people like to talk smack on it but I found that it actually does MORE damage than overhead slash. You just have to make sure that you apply 2 stacks of sundering first (hit them once with Sundering Strike in this spec) and then you get a significant damage bonus to Guardian Slash since it applies the additional 3 stacks immediately. I was able to pretty consistently critically hit for 4k damage with this ability. Which is just a little bit more damage then overhead slash usually hits for when it crits (unless I had multiple stacks of gather strength). This is also good because when you've got all 5 stacks you've removed 20% of your opponents armor. That's roughly equivalent to 4% damage reduction. Not bad at all.

 

Riposte is something that you'll want to be using all the damn time. It's off the global cool down, it costs 1 focus, it gives you a 6% defense bonus and it will be up all the freakin' time. It's an extra 1.5k damage between everyone of your attacks. You NEED this ability. It's a huge DPS boost. Additionally it makes the entire build more synergistic. Because of the fact that this increases your defense chance you're now more likely to build stacks of courage. Once you have 3 stacks it makes your next blade storm only cost 1 focus and it makes your next force sweep free. Force Sweep in this build has a small percentage chance to reduce your opponents accuracy (effectively increasing your defense) and blade storm will grant a blade barrier and absorb more damage. Basically, doing all the attacks that you should be doing all the damn time anyway increases your durability. That's some rock solid synergy.

 

Also, Force Stasis is something that you should use in conjunction with Master Strike whenever you can. It stuns your opponent, does damage and sets up Master Strike to pummel your target into oblivion. The fact that you can use Force Stasis and do anything else is amazing.

 

Focus Generation: So yeah, Soresu form nerfs your focus Gen. But the thing is that your Focus Generation should never be an issue considering how many tools you have that allow you generate Focus more efficiently anyway. For example.

 

Victory Rush: Obvious. Every Guardian should have this ability no matter what build.

 

Courage: I talked about this before. It turns your defense into free focus on 2 of your DPS abilities that you'll be using whenever they're off cool down. I underestimated this ability before. But this is a great ability to use for PvP and PvE.

 

Force Stasis: A lot of people forget this generates Focus. The fact that you can use this ability without channeling is amazing. I mentioned the Force Stasis/Master Strike Combo before. Well, even if you're going from zero focus you can just tie a dispatch right onto the end of that with Stasis. Freeze them in place with Stasis, Master Strike them and if they're below 30% health dispatch them. Keeping in mind you can still crit for 4k on this ability. It's just not Guaranteed like when you're Vigilance spec'ed.

 

Lunge: An ability that you'll be using all the damn time only costs 1 focus. This is necessary and welcome.

 

Solidified Force: Your AOE snare is now free.

 

Cyclonic Sweeps: I know what you're thinking... But seriously this ability is awesome. You just have to ignore every word after the first sentence. The ONLY reason I took this ability in the build is because it increases the rate at which soresu form generates focus from taking damage by 3 seconds. So yeah, it doubles your focus generation from taking damage. This is awesome. Every 2 global cool downs I get 1 focus from when people are trying to kill me. People will be trying to kill you no matter what build you do. So you might as well get double your focus generation out of it.

 

Between all of these abilities put together I NEVER found myself running out of focus and often found myself with an almost full focus bar after fights. Keeping in mind that I NEVER use Strike, unless by accident, this is pretty impressive focus generation for this build. There's really no reason not to take that ability.

 

I will say that I need to try this build against human opponents but I generally do very similar damage to human opponents in PvP that I do to NPC's when questing. But in terms of overall damage dealt and survival this build is actually incredibly viable. One of these days I'll try it against people. If anyone else wants to try it out and tell me how they like it feel free. Going from Vigilance to this build though it definitely took some adjustment getting used to the longer cool downs. But the damage output was very similar and I think this would do quite well in PvP.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - PM'd

[Wesgile]

Guardian Slash is actually an incredible tool for damage output. A lot of people like to talk smack on it but I found that it actually does MORE damage than overhead slash. You just have to make sure that you apply 2 stacks of sundering first (hit them once with Sundering Strike in this spec) and then you get a significant damage bonus to Guardian Slash since it applies the additional 3 stacks immediately.

wait, really? (as in, the damage is applied after adding the 3 stacks, and not the other way around?)

 

even though you stated that the damage pretty much the same (in dps gear), when i switched from vigilance to defense i get a noticeable (actually more than the 6% stated by shien bonus) decrease on the damage (numbers seen on the tooltip), quite surely from the stance bonus itself.

 

also, i've only been using defense on pvp a few times actually. but from what i've experienced, focus generation is tight especially when people aren't interested in hitting you, so you must switch around your guard accordingly. most of the time its enough for guardian strike, but rarely have spare for much else.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Wesgile

[Marqhill]

Yes, I'm serious. If you do Guardian Slash immediately then it will do A LOT less damage than if you hit them with Sundering Strike for the 2 stacks of Sundering. The Guardian Slash will then immediately apply the additional 3 stacks to make for a total of 5 stacks thus granting you the bonus damage listed in the ability tool tip. I've tested it several times. So yeah, Guardian Slash actually does awesome damage. Better than Overhead Slash damage.

 

As far as the "more than 6%" damage decrease I can't say I experienced the same. I actually noticed significantly less damage decrease due to the fact that with Guardian Slash you get all the way up to 5 stacks of sundering so quickly that it makes MUCH less of a difference in your single target damage. Additionally with how often Riposte procs you're getting a lot of extra DPS with very little focus investment.

 

Additionally, as it concerns focus cost, did you use Courage and Cyclonic Sweeps? Those are two of the most important Focus Saving/Generating things available in the skill tree. Doubling the rate at which you generate focus from damage taken is kind of a huge deal.

[wadecounty]

There is no new information in this thread, everything you wrote has been true of the Defense Guardian almost since the game was released.

 

The problem with moves like Riposte, Blade Barricade, Courage and Cyclonic Sweeps is they're all dependent on a stat (defense) that can be almost entirely bypassed in PvP by a few classes, and STILL avoided by classes that are mostly weapon damage but realize they are fighting a tank.

 

In addition, Cyclonic Sweeps gets neutered because A) part of its benefit is from being attacked, and you get focused much less in PvP when people notice you're a tank, and B) its other benefit is lowering the CD of combat focus, but the main way this happens in PvE is when you spam Cyclone Slash on trash mobs, and that simply doesn't happen in PvP.

 

I mean, I've played a Defense Guardian in PvP. Its exactly as its always been (and arguably worse in 1.2). It lasts a while, but the damage output just isn't there, even in DPS gear. And if you're using DPS gear, you're ruining your defense chance, which is a vital part of so many of these skills.

 

If you want to be durable and still do damage, go hybrid up to Warding Call or no channel Stasis. If you want to be as durable as it gets, go up the whole defense tree, actually wear tank gear so you can get the full benefit from things like Riposte, Enure and Focused Defense, and run in a premade so you at least know your teammates can kill someone.

 

Although personally, I still say the best flat out tank spec for PvP is one that goes up to Hilt Strike only so they can still get Unremitting.

[i_am_sancho]

There is no new information in this thread, everything you wrote has been true of the Defense Guardian almost since the game was released.

 

Couldn't have said that better if you were Bioware.

 

The best part about this game though is that there are almost limitless possibilities for specs, stats and gear combinations. There isn't really such a thing as right or wrong, and it's always surprising to see what can work. And it never hurts to try something out.

[alcek]

Although personally, I still say the best flat out tank spec for PvP is one that goes up to Hilt Strike only so they can still get Unremitting.

This.

[Polebreaker]

Maybe, but that leaves you without any additional strong attack. (No overhead slash or guardian slash.)

[The_Bucket]

Vig is the best pvp spec.. Defense makes you a liability.

[Smashbrother]

A deep vigilance spec with warding call is the best pvp tank spec. Full defense blows in it's ability to do damage or mitigate damage compared to a vig/def hybrid. Unremitting and commanding awe are both far superior to anything crappy defense tree has. Yes guardian slash does more damage than overhead slash, but OHS has a 9s cd while GS is 15. OHS also has a chance to reset MS (if talented) which is our strongest ability, and gives +60% crit to BS and dispatch (if talented). GS has no talents that buff it up like OHS does.

 

Warding call is all you for pvp tanking. And unlike the crappy full defense spec, I can still do good dps when a situation arises where I can use shien form (like doing dailies or FPs).

 

The 11/28/2 spec that I use is probably the best jack of all trades build for a guardian. With this build I can play using either soresu or shien (depends on the situation, though I mostly use soresu in pvp), and I have tanked HM Lost Island and dps HM Lost Island to completion.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Gren-Aluren]

Hybrid in my opinion is the best you can do. Just like the above poster stated, vigilance with warding call is the way to go. I've actually done alot of combat logs in both Hybrid and in Full defense. To my surprise the DPS is almost identical but you have way more survivability in Vigilance then you do in the full defense tree. God Guardian defense tree needs to be fixed. It's a joke.

[Polebreaker]

Hybrid in my opinion is the best you can do. Just like the above poster stated, vigilance with warding call is the way to go. I've actually done alot of combat logs in both Hybrid and in Full defense. To my surprise the DPS is almost identical but you have way more survivability in Vigilance then you do in the full defense tree. God Guardian defense tree needs to be fixed. It's a joke.

 

Pretty much my conclusions as well. And hell yeah defense tree needs a re-do, not to mention pvp tankiness in general (which I know is supposedly coming "soon", but unless they roll back 1.2 and stop the gibfest that is pvp now, I dont see how any class changes will make a difference.)

[wadecounty]

The main problem with the Defense tree is a lot of talents are dedicated to upping your Focus generation back to normal levels... but this only matters in a long encounter. Since most PvP encounters are quick engagements, you rarely see the benefits from things like Cyclonic Sweeps and Courage.