Socializing in MMORPGs ... Nearing Extinction?

[Monoth]

You picked the wrong game, Play Rift, one of the best communities Ive ever met, and Elder Scroll Online is also real MMO. This forum actually reflects alot of this game, full of individuals, theres nothing we agree, everyone just whines. This forum is honestly most hostile Ive ever seen, well full of radicalism.

 

You must be playing in a small bubble of friends in Rift... from my experiences its no different from this game..... I remember in SWG looking for a crafter who you could depend on to make you quality gear, given all gear had decay it meant you created friendships with other people in the game, not to mention that all items in the game were crafted there were not gear drops/rewards, you would just get rare material drops you need to create such gear...

 

Also only being able to create one toon meant you couldn't be the jack of all trades and be anti-social.... You had to depend on other people to make sure you had all the stuff you needed.....

 

Removing Decay from MMO's also killed socializing....

Edited May 20, 2012 by Monoth

[Lexster]

When games become more difficult and more punishing, you will begin to see communities emerge once more. That also includes communities full of elitists and rude players. Making death hurt, making the game far less soloable, and increased overall challenge will force people together, and when they are together there will be increased socializing, for good or bad.

[Nippon]

You must be playing in a small bubble of friends in Rift... from my experiences its no different from this game..... I remember in SWG looking for a crafter who you could depend on to make you quality gear, given all gear had decay it meant you created friendships with other people in the game, not to mention that all items in the game were crafted there were not gear drops/rewards, you would just get rare material drops you need to create such gear...

 

Also only being able to create one toon meant you couldn't be the jack of all trades and be anti-social.... You had to depend on other people to make sure you had all the stuff you needed.....

 

Removing Decay from MMO's also killed socializing....

 

Couldn't have put it better myself....

 

LFG or any other tool is not what ruins socializing in MMOS, Its the complete lack of real crafting (SWG, EVE, EQ) the need to actually speak to other players to get what you needed. The lack of non combat classes that created small helpful areas in Cantinas that players could goto for advice and help. These areas do not exist nor do the playable characters. Would it impact anybody's game negatively....NO.

 

MMO's are about choices and options, Bioware have chosen to Rail the entire leveling system, create a crafting system that does not work with end game, and individualize everything about a players character to be the bare bones of an MMO, and a total solo playing experience....

 

Until they realize that you absolutely have to have SOME Sandbox elements in a modern MMO, this game is doomed. Because the first company to create it will take every paying sub in the MMO genre, simply because it offers something current MMOs seem to be petrified of.

 

I ask and dare BIoware to make Entertainers ( SWG ) in this game and see instantly how it transforms Cantinas into social areas, places to gather and how communities grow around them.

 

What makes me laugh, is the mere mention of Entertainers brings out all the anti social players and there desperate attempts to get anything that involves them communicating with another players reduced to the rubbish pile as something that is not needed. Unfortunately the game is crying out for it, and if YOU choose to not socialize which is exactly what an MMO is made for then go play D3 or BF3 which are SOLO games.

 

I want SWTOR to be an MMO........We have had the 5 month social experiment.......It is not working.....Do something about it Bioware. your game is not dying because of lack of content......Its dying because nobody has ANY reason to play with another player, or seek another player for gear and help.

[tkinnunzero]

The lack of non combat classes that created small helpful areas in Cantinas that players could goto for advice and help. These areas do not exist nor do the playable characters. Would it impact anybody's game negatively....NO.

 

I'm sorry, I haven't ever played SWG and I still know this is wrong. To facilitate a reason for those non-combat classes to have a purpose in the game, the game's design included a 'wounding' mechanism.

 

The wounds you received were small amounts of unhealable damage, like having a durability on your health bar. Eventually your health bar would become too broken, so you had to go to a cantina to have it repaired. This you did by going AFK in a cantina watching someone who AFKed a Dancer class.

 

Having a mechanic like this in SWTOR would definitely affect my enjoyment of the game negatively.

[USMCjv]

Bioware threw a party intended to promote mingling, only to find out that many who came were made to feel uncomfortable because mingling means they can't hide. That's a scary proposition for some. So I think even if every server was full there'd still be masses crying for a LFG tool.

 

WoW's LFG made it possible to solo through the entire game, but in the process enabled droppping group when things went bad or bailing on a party the moment a particular boss drop did or didn't happen. A sizable percentage of WoW's 10+ million MMO gamers became drones conditioned to ignore socializing as a result.

 

Why physically converse with someone when you can send a dry text or email and spinelessly avoid having to deal with "the human condition" first hand? Why hang with local players and group together when you can click a button and get matched up with other players like an Internet dating service? Almost seems like every "new generation" MMO player from here on will suffer from having 1,000 channels at their disposal and finding there's nothing on - and it won't be from a lack of programming.

 

It's a different age I'm afraid, where an "instafriend" system is as close to socializing as many want to get. LFG created that and I don't think it's going away. Players who rely on RPG social skills to progress through a MMORPG seem to be a dying breed.

When I un-subbed for this game I re-subbed for WoW, only until GW2 comes out, and within 5 minutes of logging in I had talked to more people than I had ever talked to in five months of gameplay in SWTOR. The problem is that SWTOR is so heavily instanced and focused on story it almost feels detrimental to your story when you have someone else group up with you, just my opinions don't take my head off please. As for the LFG in WoW I have met some really nice people, some bad ones too but that is unavoidable, who I still group up with today.

[WillyWampa]

It's near extinction in real life as well, well at least here in the states, and i believe its just carried over into the gaming world. Look at the popularity of dating sites as an example, why put yourself out there and take the risk of getting to know someone from scratch when i can pre screen someone and chat with them from the secure safety of my computer screen. how many times do we say hello to our neighbor vs. the number of times we avoid eye contact at all costs. IMO humans have alway been and will always be oppertunistic by nature and give them the path of least resistence, they will take it

 

I have been employed in a very social setting for a dozen years (Work in the nightclub scene in a large US city) and I have seen a marked change in how people interact and socialize.I have also been an MMO gamer for just as long and have seen much the same there.

 

Humans are instictually social and by and large selfish insecure and egotistical.Impersonal communication such as Facebook,texting and e-mail remove the empathy of person to person interaction.By gaining this level of emotional detachment and annonimity people gain a social barrier to feed their negative traits of egotism and insecurity rather than having to lean how to over come them.

 

Reducing person to person interaction and replacing it with texting reduces an individuals empathy,being able to read a persons body language and facial expression in face to face socializing is becomming a lost art.What we get is a generation of socialy insecure egotist who never learned how not to hurt other's feelings,share or compromise.

 

MMO are an oddity,we are by and large forced to socialize via text and have an additional layer of annonimity granted via character avatars.

Even with these limitations MMO still require social behavior such as cooperation,compromise and sharing.

 

Now here is the kicker...people forgot how to be cooperative,sharing empathic beings and just alt tab to face book.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - PM'd

[BJWyler]

BWhy physically converse with someone when you can send a dry text or email and spinelessly avoid having to deal with "the human condition" first hand? Why hang with local players and group together when you can click a button and get matched up with other players like an Internet dating service? Almost seems like every "new generation" MMO player from here on will suffer from having 1,000 channels at their disposal and finding there's nothing on - and it won't be from a lack of programming.

I take it that you still communicate via Quill and Velum then? Progress is progress and as technology changes, so does society. In our own microcosm of the universe, the same holds true in games. What everyone here may want the MMO to be is no longer what the MMO is, and that’s because society, as noted, has changed and thus the way society wants to play games.

Samm’s post (partially quoted below) really sums things up nicely.

 

This forum actually reflects alot of this game, full of individuals, theres nothing we agree, everyone just whines. This forum is honestly most hostile Ive ever seen, well full of radicalism.

Finally, something we can agree on.

 

Bwahahaha, I had exactly the same thought than you when I read his post... again. I think he wrote something like 120 ESO related posts in about 2 weeks, 2 weeks! That's about 9 ESO posts everyday in a SWTOR forum! Btw, a lot of his posts are basically copy-pastes. *double facepalm*... nah *triple facepalm*

He's only afraid of being the only one playing the game (yet another generic fantasy MMO). If ESO was really going to be all that new and exciting, it wouldn't need lackeys spamming the forums of other games just to tell them the game is coming soon.

 

WARNING: long read incoming - I hope you read it though, OP, because I agree with much (though not all) of your analysis.

In other words, I think if companies start to explicitly develop and advertise games as a "casual-gamer game", a "hardcore PvPer game", a "mostly-focused-on-raiding game", etc., they will see much more long term success. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying a game designed for a PvP market should have zero PvE; However, I think that they will be openly explicit in their marketing strategies by literally telling consumers that their game is PvP focused and will not be enjoyable for those seeking primarily PvE. This will prevent PvErs from assuming the game is for them, thus preventing having a lot of unhappy customers. Just an example.

Good read, actually. However, it contains unrealistic expectations – no one in the industry wants to make an “average” game. They want the blockbuster that gets all the headlines. The marketing you talk about would work for Eve and Second Life, but in all reality, who outside of gamers (heck, there are even plenty of gamers) who ever heard of those games? Mass Market appeal in a capitalistic society will always dictate the direction of any genre – or good or bad. Personally, I think without it, a genre would cease to exist.

 

2. What you or I prefer is irrelevant at this point. One does not pick a game, then assume to change it to fit one's style (although many here believe that to be a truism). We chose an RPG, not a random shooter. Why should they alter the game because people picked the wrong game?

If only that were true. Unfortunately, I have seen it in every game's forums (at least the ones that compelled me enough to visit their forums). Saw it happen big time in GW1, and the game suffered for it as a result.

Couldn't have put it better myself....

 

LFG or any other tool is not what ruins socializing in MMOS, Its the complete lack of real crafting (SWG, EVE, EQ) the need to actually speak to other players to get what you needed. The lack of non combat classes that created small helpful areas in Cantinas that players could goto for advice and help. These areas do not exist nor do the playable characters. Would it impact anybody's game negatively....NO.

 

Actually, that would affect my gameplay negatively as well. I am sure we are all saddened by the loss of SWG, but there was a reason it was a niche game and not enjoyed by millions of players.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

Please show me where in this description of MMO that is states an MMO has to include any of the things you mentioned in your post.

 

The success of any game, be it MMO or otherwise is the options (or illusion of) player choice in the game, as you state. However, when you are forced to go to another player in order to accomplish something in a game, then that is very much anti-choice/option. I often have to play games at inopertune hours for my time zone. I do not want to be limited in my enjoyment of the game or what I can accomplish during that time because I need to "socialize" with other players (who aren't on-line during said time) in order to progress.

 

BJ

[Gungan]

Yes, lots of valid reasons in this thread about how the game itself can foster socialization and community, despite what the "community for the sake of community" people have to say about it.

[Hambunctious]

Socializing is dying for sure. That's probably because there are so many jerks online. Are there nice people? Yes, but those who aren't ruin it for everyone. I would just as soon not risk dealing with the rude, the ninja looters, or the inept.

[FeelFlow]

I think that you're right, OP. in a mass market MMO we're 'all alone together' and I bet that most people even in WoW - even if they are in a guild - essentially don't have a social experience and go through the game solo with a few random group encounters fostered by using the LFG tool there.

 

MMOs being a social experience only work with really small scale MMOs - the concept doesn't scale.

 

Same thing with Facebook - how many people there really have a meaningful social experience when people have 100+ friends etc., typically?

 

I have to say though, that if you understand that and I understand that and loads of other gamers understand that why didn't BW and EA understand it and launch the game without a LFG tool (or a server merge/free transfer tool - every MMO in the history of time has needed to do this!).

[TKMaster]

The genre is dying out, in the west, if you cant see it your blind. To survive either MMO's will become smaller niche games or someone is going to have to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak because this trend of copycat-ism isnt working anymore.

[Darka]

Social aspects in MMOs could be more supported, while I understand SWG was too extreme for many by forcing other players to rely on other players, it wasnt everyones liking.

That said, it feels that beyond a few groups there is little need or will for players to get together, I think combined with the common belief that you have to be raiding, questing, pvping or your doing nothing. There isnt really anything to stop for here, no one stops, we all just go on our way and wait for things to pop.

There is little interaction outside of a group,.

 

Id support some more interactions based around players, getting people involved in the game is key, but remembering that a game play time doesnt have to be questing, raiding, or pvping everytime too

[Kalfear]

The issue at hand is (as Darka kinda said above) there is nothing that brings us togather!

 

If you look back at games, MMOs that developed communities (ill list a few over last 21 years) had something to get everyone involved

 

oNWN on AOL- Turn Based PVP so when waiting on your turn you spoke and interacted. No world chat or Auction house so if you wanted to buy and sell you had to goto market and interact

 

EQ - Forced grouping outside of a couple classes. People formed relationships or they didnt advance, that simple. Same market area system as oNWN (no Auction house). Harsh level curve so you didnt max out over night and needed to build relationships and community for the long haul

 

DAoC - had RVR rather then PVP and the benefit benefited the entire realm (rather then individual armor and stat change) so the realm worked togather as a community to defend their relics and to steal others.

 

The issue with TOR is its removed all the common mechanics that brought players togather and replaced them with single player mechanics. So they have a single player game mostly!

 

The quickest and smartest fix now (as you cant really take away all the pvp rewards that ruin that part of system) is to put in activities that bring players togather.

 

Paazaak, swoops, holo chess, bejerik are the obvious ones and easiest to impliment

World events (public groups) ala RIFT Rifts are anouther more detailed way

DAoC (pre RAs) RVR another way (though the warzones have done serious harm to getting non pvpers interested in partaking so not 100% if RVR works now or if its to late to save that side of game short of total remake)

 

EAoware needs to focus on concepts that bring players togather willingly.

Right now they have Raids and PVP, what about the other 80% not interested in those?

[ohpleasework]

1. In WoW when you use the LFG you are socializing. You interact and deal with other players far, far greater in WoW with the LFG tool than you do in TOR.

 

2. You can add players on other servers to your friends list and run content with them. When I played WoW I ran heroics and raids with people on other servers often. We knew each other as well as guildies do.

 

3. You can also solo your way through TOR. I fail to see why this is important, or why it's considered a negative.

[Stugotz]

Socializing in MMORPGs was fun and useful until the WOW crowd came into being. Now it's just not enjoyable to have teammates trying to tell everyone else how they should gear and play their Toons. I now have much more fun playing without teaming very often or Raiding. I don't pay a monthly fee to listen to others trying to tell everyone else how to play the game that they pay for themselves.

[Kalfear]

1. In WoW when you use the LFG you are socializing. You interact and deal with other players far, far greater in WoW with the LFG tool than you do in TOR.

 

2. You can add players on other servers to your friends list and run content with them. When I played WoW I ran heroics and raids with people on other servers often. We knew each other as well as guildies do.

 

3. You can also solo your way through TOR. I fail to see why this is important, or why it's considered a negative.

 

 

1) Being in a group not speaking is NOT interacting or socializing. Its actually adding to the issue at hand of no socializing in MMORPGs anymore.

 

2) You cant add players if you are not meeting players. Read thread and stop using WOW as a refertence point, WOW is where the wheels really went off the tracks on this issue.

 

3) You dont understand how being solo 100% of the time hurts interaction and socialization? Seriously? Really?

 

Socializing in MMORPGs was fun and useful until the WOW crowd came into being. Now it's just not enjoyable to have teammates trying to tell everyone else how they should gear and play their Toons. I now have much more fun playing without teaming very often or Raiding. I don't pay a monthly fee to listen to others trying to tell everyone else how to play the game that they pay for themselves.

 

Yup

 

I was so sick of what Raiding attitudes bring I walked away from a guild Id been apart of (and leader of for many years) because they went elitist raider mentality while I was away ill for 3 months from gaming.

 

Guild Id developed and designed to be a social freindly guild was now insulting new recruits upon meeting them, refusing to group with people who didnt meet their equipment demands. Backstabbing and everything. Literally tore my heart out to be honest. 15 years down the drain because a small group of them thouth they were more important then everyone else. Now all thats left of that 100+ player guild is like 8 people (last I heard anyways, maybe they figured it out by now how to recuit) game hopping.

 

This whole "competative gaming" nonsense is so damaging to the social aspect of MMORPGs.

 

And yeah it came to a for front in WOW. Oh it was around to a lesser degree always (my guild fallout was in EQ2 actually) but it wasnt the main driving attitude.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Kalfear

[Seregul]

Bioware threw a party intended to promote mingling, only to find out that many who came were made to feel uncomfortable because mingling means they can't hide. That's a scary proposition for some. So I think even if every server was full there'd still be masses crying for a LFG tool.

 

WoW's LFG made it possible to solo through the entire game, but in the process enabled droppping group when things went bad or bailing on a party the moment a particular boss drop did or didn't happen. A sizable percentage of WoW's 10+ million MMO gamers became drones conditioned to ignore socializing as a result.

 

Why physically converse with someone when you can send a dry text or email and spinelessly avoid having to deal with "the human condition" first hand? Why hang with local players and group together when you can click a button and get matched up with other players like an Internet dating service? Almost seems like every "new generation" MMO player from here on will suffer from having 1,000 channels at their disposal and finding there's nothing on - and it won't be from a lack of programming.

 

It's a different age I'm afraid, where an "instafriend" system is as close to socializing as many want to get. LFG created that and I don't think it's going away. Players who rely on RPG social skills to progress through a MMORPG seem to be a dying breed.

 

Or you're just old and out of touch. And as a side note, your comments regarding internet dating are profoundly ignorant.

[ImTasty]

I have to agree with some others that have said they leave the socializing for real life. To me the people in the game are just faceless names and i'm sure others will agree with this. I'll admit I'm nice sometimes. If I'm in the mood to help people or talk to people I'll do it but because I do something like help you with a class quest does not mean you need to start asking me about my day and where i live.

[ohpleasework]

1) Being in a group not speaking is NOT interacting or socializing. Its actually adding to the issue at hand of no socializing in MMORPGs anymore.

 

2) You cant add players if you are not meeting players. Read thread and stop using WOW as a refertence point, WOW is where the wheels really went off the tracks on this issue.

 

3) You dont understand how being solo 100% of the time hurts interaction

 

1. You join groups and don't speak to other people? That must be awkward. I've run into that a few times in TOR, but getting groups in TOR is rare because it lacks a LFG tool so I'm not sure if that's a widespread concept. Were you suggesting this is only exclusive to WoW? That would be an incredibly fallacious assertion.

 

2. I met and added players to my friends list often - did you not understand my post? And it's entirely germane to the conversation to reference WoWs use of the LFG tool, especially as an example of how popular these tools are and how much they enhance the gameplay and encourage socializing.

 

3. I understand that it is possible to attain the highest level without requiring groups. I also realize that there is optional group content in the game.

 

You're approaching everything in a binary fashion, you're not taking one step back beyond your own opinion, nor are you thinking the least bit critically

Edited May 20, 2012 by ohpleasework

[GRINnBARRETT]

My personal experience with MMOs began with GW in 2005. The GW community was fairly nice (given today's standard). I was able to guild, group , and chat in a relatively mature environment. I played each expansion but found the 2nd expansion (Factions 2006) not to my liking. The grouping and guild was still OK but I began to see the beginning of condescending players & such. I didn't think much of it at the time, simply chalking it up to people being more frustrated in a "darker" setting.

 

Moving on to LOTRO in 2007, the community was even better. Strangers were helpful & chat had hardly any trolls. But I just didn't "feel" the game as much. I haven't visited the game since it went F2P but I can honestly say that the community was the best I've ever encountered.

 

I switched to WoW after Burning Crusade was released. And I was introduced to the world of trolls (not just the blue & green skinned kind). Guilds were OK but arguments happened, especially when it came to progressive raiding. Chat channels were a place of "one-up-manship", and any disagreements in the conversation quickly turned into downright offensive behavior. I was able to stomach this community until about a month after Cataclysm released. I had enough at that point & was forever jaded to the internet gaming community.

 

I've played other games: Aion (until the free sub ran out), Rift (5-ish months), FPS's, DDO (briefly). But I haven't seen any community come close to matching the LOTRO community. And I probably never will. So when games like this come along & I'm allowed to cruise along in my own little world, group when it's convenient, and be a part of a small guild (there are no 25-man needs here), then I cherish it. I don't have any inclination to ever again subject myself to the attention bastards, trolls, racists, bigots, and otherwise rude internet crowd when I don't have to.

 

And that pretty much sums up why I don't like to socialize much in this game. I socialize more in the forums than I do in game (other than guild talk). Sure I'm missing out on a lot of potential virtual friends. But the trade off is worth it IMO.

[gurugeorge]

Guilds = Socializing

 

No, equating solo with casual player, and guilds with socializing is IMHO a huge mistake.

 

There are plenty of casual players out there who like socializing, but aren't interesting in committing to guilds, with all their politics and drama, etc. (or, equally boring, anonymity).

 

MMOs need to make allowances for PUGs, make it easy to forms PUGs, and make gameplay tuneable so that people don't shy away from PUGs because content is fixed at a level that's so difficult that PUGs can't do it.

 

I think the automated cross-server LFG tool is a malaise in MMORPGs (I think that's why Blizzard didn't introduce it till relatively late), but now that it's been introduced and people have come to expect it, we're stuck with it. It's still possible to socialize with people in PUGs, you just have to initiate it. Sometimes people are silent, other times you can have nice chats with random strangers.

 

But yeah, I remember when the type of LFG tool that's actually in SWTOR already was, even up to a few years ago, perfectly sufficient for people to use to form groups.

 

It's like the culture of using such tools has just totally disappeared from MMO space.

[Kaisernick]

I like the community optional system most MMOs have now. Some people just don't want to socialize but still want to play MMO's for other reasons (all the more true with TOR as it has a great solo leveling experience). However with the creation of guilds and the features it provides, modern MMOs have given players the ability to create mini communities for themselves that, while maybe not as large as an entire server, still a maintain an equal if not closer level of intimacy and social interaction. Therefore options like cross-server LFG tools and the like don't really affect those close knit communities but give those who arn't really apart of a guild a chance to run group content in a consistent basis.

 

I'd rather a game not shove socializing down my throat but have features that let me decide how much socializing I want to do on any given day.

 

this prehaps is the best and only true answer you can get.

 

socializing in mmos i like to do but i fear with the amount of immature players i meet in wow, i and possibally many others began to avoid making close friend in mmos.

[DorkTrooper]

There is enough forced socializing in real life. One reason I like SWTOR is I can run 80% of the content with a small group of RL friends, and do not have to bow to the whims of some 200-man group/guild leader who I don't know and don't care to know.

 

Looking forward to ops once I'm better geared, and I enjoyed the larger groups that took down bosses during the plague event, but I'm glad I don't have to rely on that sort of experience every day to progress through the game.

[ohpleasework]

Ghostcrawler, lead dev of WoW, mentioned that their Dungeon Finder halted a long time decline and stabilized their population. It is immensely popular and encouraged socializing, allowed players of all kinds to experience content Blizzard spent a lot of resources on creating, etc. They had to go cross-server because even their extremely healthy population You still have to account for time zone differences, differences in active player levels, participation, etc - so server groups got around those issues.

 

Basically there is plenty of precedence, and a reason why such LFG tools are now expected mechanisms in modern theme park MMOs.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ohpleasework

[Bluerodian]

Socializing well is a lost art form, not something you can expect from the gibbering howler monkeys that make up the MMO population these days. Edited May 20, 2012 by Bluerodian