pvp is not 1 on 1

[TheLordMagnus]

can people understand this i read all these outrages posts about stuff from people saying nerf this class kill this class remove cc change resolve none of this stuff is broken only thing broken is the ammo usege for some tree on the merc side

sorcc fine if played well as dps AND HEALERS marras good dps bad vs 2 or more exprenced players devastating in numbers working as a team

juggers great gurads and good solid damge in vengence spec for pve and pvp

 

what i see in many games is this the team be it pugs or premades that has a plan and the team that rocks up says nothing then crys when they dont win

pvp in swtor is team based not 1 player vs the rest learn to play as a team stop crying for nerfs and drastic changes to pvp and learn how it works befoure making complaints

only change needed is ranked and more incentive for world pvp and the 8 man teams

yes my english is bad we aint all white:D

[Dmasterr]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Twor]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

Sadly your irony is so true.

I remember the absurd examples a marauder player gave for how a typical 1on1 fight against a commando went, - the commando played perfectly and the marauder didn't even use a signle defensive CD.

 

For the balance changes you propose, I think thats the right direction. The damage is high but ok, its the countless defensive CDs which are just way to short and powerful for a class with that kind of offensive potential. Though on my server luckly the fotm rerollers are so bad, that they rarely use camo.

 

*edit* and yes PvP isn't balanced around 1on1s. That doesn't mean that 1 class should rule them all though. Espescially since the defensive CDs of mentioned class do not lose any potency in group PvP either.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Twor

[mikedee]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

This guy know what he is talking about. Normally does.

It's sad but this is the status of pvp atm.

[kenbenobi]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

I could not agree more with you. Marauders just run around killing who they wish and they do not need group to any support. They have heals, bubbles, insane dps, charge, and get out of jail hide skill.

[ImperialSun]

I could not agree more with you. Marauders just run around killing who they wish and they do not need group to any support. They have heals, bubbles, insane dps, charge, and get out of jail hide skill.

 

Can a Mara acheive all of this in one build? Or are you just throwing around skills / abilities that are not obtainable with the skill point allocation of a single toon?

 

No trolling,,,,I'm just not familiar with the Mara class

 

Driz

[Sookster]

That other thread which got locked was discussing a similar subject, even for team based pvp (lol), this game's pvp still isn't balanced. I've played many MMO games since the 90's and pvp'd in many of them, team baed pvp rarely happens until it's a premade.

[Aehgo]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

Agree,good post.

[Laforet]

Gotta love the ancient "pvp is not balanced around 1v1 so my leave my **** class alone".

 

Well, pvp is balanced around 1v1? NO IT IS NOT.

 

But even if pvp is not balanced around 1v1 should BW let 1v1 gods run around rampart? NO.

 

The existence of a class that can **** another class in 1v1 is the sympton that something is indeed very wrong.

 

1v1 cant be 100% balanced, i agree on that but it cant be 100% imbalanced too.

 

If theres a class that pwns in 1v1 smart players can make a tactical lock on the enemy team. Example: your team wants to make a strong push on a node, but you know that in the other team there is THAT CLASS that pwns 1v1 and he keeps going solo to your node. That means you are obligated to leave at least 2 people on the remaining node otherwise the 1v1 GOD will take it. Thats one player locking up 2 enemy players. Somehow people think its balanced, it is not.

 

Also, on most cases, invencibility in 1v1 generally means that the aforementioned class is also imbalanced in small scale fights too.

 

In a small scale fight, we can easily focus down and burn a PT PYRO rather quick, we cant do that to a marauder because the bugger will burn cooldown after cooldown to keep up while doing great damage and not all classes can kite a well played marauder. Thats not balanced in any account, 1v1 imbalancing tranfers to small scale fight imbalancing and ive seen countless WZs decided on small scale fights (2x2, 3x3 over a node).

 

Also, people say sorcs are fine. WE ARE. But if i commit one single mistake in a fight im DEAD IN SECONDS.

 

How many mistakes can a marauder commit? Ive seen marauders commit 5 mistakes in a row and get away with because they have very good / very short CDs to save their day.

 

Back in wow vanilla days there was a concept of classes that had high skill cap but higher results. Meaning that the class is "harder" to play but will do better if played correctly. While i disagree with this concept, the actual state of the sorc (both heals and dps) is that we are harder to play to achieve the SAME (or slight worse) results that other dps/healers achieve.

 

Inb4 "i do XXXk hps / XXXk dps with my sorc" heroes. Yes you probably do that by spamming force storm, or spamming salvation (lol) thus inflating your table numbers but these high aoe inflated numbers rarely affect the outcome of a pvp fight. So keep aoeing while you die 10x in a match. GG play on.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Laforet

[OpenSorce]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

Nice job hijacking this thread and turning into another "WAAAAAAAAAAAA! I can't roflstomp Marauders anymore!!!!!!" post. L2P. We're balanced now. Deal with it.

Edited May 18, 2012 by OpenSorce

[masterbason]

so... what you're saying is... if I'm in WZ and our enemies have 4 marauders/sentinels and we not, will we need 12 people to win? Edited May 18, 2012 by masterbason

[OpenSorce]

so... what you're saying is... if I'm in WZ and our enemies have 4 marauders/sentinels and we not, will we need 12 people to win?

 

What he/she is saying is "BioWarrrrrrrrrre!!! Give me back my easy killllllll!!! WAAAAAAAAA!!!!". It's so hard to believe they finally made the Marauder class viable. This is a game with ranged tanks in heavy armor with self heals. They really have nothing more to cry about than balanced marauders? Sad.

[DarthKhaos]

I agree with the clown color post but I'm not gonna quote it due to the visually offensive nature of it.

[TUXs]

PvP isn't balanced around 1on1s. That doesn't mean that 1 class should rule them all though. Espescially since the defensive CDs of mentioned class do not lose any potency in group PvP either.

Nicely said!!!

[JediDuckling]

can people understand this i read all these outrages posts about stuff from people saying nerf this class kill this class remove cc change resolve none of this stuff is broken only thing broken is the ammo usege for some tree on the merc side

sorcc fine if played well as dps AND HEALERS marras good dps bad vs 2 or more exprenced players devastating in numbers working as a team

juggers great gurads and good solid damge in vengence spec for pve and pvp

 

what i see in many games is this the team be it pugs or premades that has a plan and the team that rocks up says nothing then crys when they dont win

pvp in swtor is team based not 1 player vs the rest learn to play as a team stop crying for nerfs and drastic changes to pvp and learn how it works befoure making complaints

only change needed is ranked and more incentive for world pvp and the 8 man teams

yes my english is bad we aint all white:D

 

no it is not 1 on 1 but explain why certain class's and specs can kill 5 players on their own ?

 

because the class and spec they are useing is most likely stupidly overpowerd

[CRNphg]

Even the mara's on our server didn't get why they were getting buffed.

[LarryRow]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being too strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM: Marauders have two strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being too strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

Wow, you are really pushing the operative -> stunlock -> unsub meme.

 

I don't always agree with what you say (and since your posts are bright yellow it's easy to keep track), but you have hit on a major contradiction that, now that I think back, I have read all over these forums. Kinda wish I'd noticed it first!

 

I think healing should be nerfed while Undying Rage is up. Maybe not 100%, but to some degree. I also think we should reacquire the Marauder as the target when they reappear from Force Camo if we haven't targeted anyone since they vanished. I basically feel like Force Camo is unfairly exploiting the lousy targeting and they are cheesing their way to more survivability. I have put this second suggestion forward a couple times though, and I think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Edited May 18, 2012 by LarryRow

[JediDuckling]

Even the mara's on our server didn't get why they were getting buffed.

 

funny thing is a good operative can stun lock a mara to death

a pyrotech can kill one in 4 seconds

and everything else a mara just pummels

[DevorRentreen]

funny thing is a good operative can stun lock a mara to death

a pyrotech can kill one in 4 seconds

and everything else a mara just pummels

 

a pyrotech can kill a mara in 4 seconds?

 

yeah if he is at 2K HP and does not have his def cd's up. Then he can abolutely kill him in 4 secs

 

But you know that. Stop posting nonsense, please!

Edited May 18, 2012 by DevorRentreen

[Clexzor]

Good and im saying goooood melee players are almost impossible to iether kite or keep them off of ranged that's what most people are crying about including myself. The fact that they made god like melee class's is beyond me there burst is to strong along with there mainly def. cool downs there are made for open PvP. And for those that don't understand they balanced melee around Ilum so that they wouldn't die right off the bat well there no open pvp anymore were the def. cool down nerf's????

[SneiK]

My server is so dead, it's practically impossible to play pvp. There is mostly no warzone going (less than 16 queued, hell the server doesn't even have 16 lvl 50s on that often), and even if there is, there is exactly one game...ONE. That's usually 4x4 premades, so you won't get in solo, ever. I don't mind 'light' server. But when an MMO server has less than 50 players at 'peak' times...man...

 

But yeah, it's P(layers)v(ersus)P(players). Notice the plural 'PlayerS', not 1v1. PvP in the game is fun, but yeah...Can't play. Server merges BW or 'character transfers' whatever, the game is dying.

Edited May 18, 2012 by SneiK

[DarkDruidSS]

You are right, and under that premise we need to nerf operatives some more, because teams of operatives are running rampart chain stunning ppl causing them to unsub.

 

SRSLY.

 

BTW here is the marauder stance on what you are saying:

 

BW FORUM: Marauders are to strong in 1v1, i don't have a chance.

 

Marauders : Fools this game is not about 1v1, if you want to kill me bring some friends. Being to strong in a 1v1 setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

BW FORUM: Marauders have to strong defensive cooldowns in group settings, esentially giving them extra lives. Force camo and guarded by the force makes them neigh invulnerable and allows healers to pick up the slack, or to to focus on healing other players because marauders have "get out of jail free cards" on very short cooldowns.

 

Marauders : Fools you can not act under the premise that there will be healers around. And being to strong in a group setting is not a valid reason to nerf us.

 

BW FORUM : But, but you are contradicting yourselves .

 

Marauders : Shut up and L2P, we all have been visited by Jesus the night of the 1.2 patch and been given super human skill.

 

 

*Note, the only change i advocate for Marauders is to bring Force camo in line with vanish (cloaking screen/force cloak) from operatives and assassins. If not to change its ridiculously short cooldown, then to reduce healing received by 100% just like vanish does.

 

WoW a post from you that I can agree with mostly. Also since you keep adding more colors to your post I think you should have "kiss the raindow" in your signature haha.

 

The only thing I have to counter this is that on my Sniper and Sin I can and do kill Maras. Granted It takes a lot more effort than burning down a sorcerer or a merc... and also Sin and Sniper being 2 very strong classes in their own right too. Sins have some nasty tricks and selfheals.. so really a 1v1 with a Mara in equal gear is going to come down to who makes a mistake first. Sniper has enough tools in MM spec to keep Maras at distance or at least somewhat controlled long enough to out last undying rage to burst them down. It still comes down to playing near perfect to stop a mara though.

[Sookster]

funny thing is a good operative can stun lock a mara to death

a pyrotech can kill one in 4 seconds

and everything else a mara just pummels

 

Stunlocking a mara with an operative isn't going to happen, you won't live long enough to get that far.

 

Pyrotech can, if the mara is too stupid to pop undying rage too early, then again the pyrotech might be eating a rooted ravage and be dead before then- coz you know, pyrotech doesn't have many ways to get out of that (I can with shieldtech because of jet charge, that's if another enemy is nearby).

 

I've said it before, my assassin (madness) is best at handling marauders, root and kite them and dot them when they pop defenses and then go to town when they're burnt up.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Sookster

[alcek]

@TheLordMagnus

Yes, a mmorpg isn't 1v1, TRUE.

BUT.

You can't leave 1v1 totally unchecked, because it causes problems, which you comfortably just ignore.

Example - a modest guardian like me, does the job encrypted in my class name, like guards a stupid tower/node somewhere. Alone. Why alone, you will ask? Because having more means my team will lack men elsewhere.

So an evil marauder somes to me. I know, that if he manages to land the leap /and if he insists, he will camo - leap from camo/, my chanses aren't good that i will survive even 15 seconds so help can come before i die. And if my force push is on cd, i am dead no matter what, and dead very fast. So fast that he will cap BEFORE help comes, even if i have called immediately.

So, i don't cry that i got anihilated. I cry because i fail to do my job, due to factors that are 100% ouside me to influence in any way. And i don't think that as a guardian i am the most squishy target for a marauder, some other classes have it even WORSE.

I am giving example with what bothers me most personally. Other guys playing other classes have different problems, which they can share if they like.

So this is the main reason it isn't a good idea to let very one-sided 1v1 match ups exist.

[SinnedWill]

Sadly your irony is so true.

I remember the absurd examples a marauder player gave for how a typical 1on1 fight against a commando went, - the commando played perfectly and the marauder didn't even use a signle defensive CD.

 

For the balance changes you propose, I think thats the right direction. The damage is high but ok, its the countless defensive CDs which are just way to short and powerful for a class with that kind of offensive potential. Though on my server luckly the fotm rerollers are so bad, that they rarely use camo.

 

*edit* and yes PvP isn't balanced around 1on1s. That doesn't mean that 1 class should rule them all though. Espescially since the defensive CDs of mentioned class do not lose any potency in group PvP either.

Sorry that this thread got hijacked, but I'll try to address some of these marauder CD's:

 

Marauders always were a counter for commando (even pre 1.2, they'd smoke 'em - 1.2 didn't really change marauder overall performance, but it certainly brought a flood of 2nd generation characters -alts- to flock to it - the issue with damage comes from the expertise changes) - and lets be honest, commandos/mercs certainly aren't smoking anyone solo right now - they need love (and I don't play one, so seriously, BW, help them out a little).

 

If they took out our cooldowns and instead gave us talents to improve our survivability passively (like most other AC's can spec in to, be it defense rating, armor rating, flat damage reduction rating, etc.) albeit of less significant value than the currently activated abilities' values, you would actually find marauders becoming SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult. I know I'm not the best marauder, but I'm not bad (my mara is carnage, so I don't have anywhere near the margin for error survivability annihilation has) and I'll honestly admit that we certainly miss using our activated abilities sometimes. Sometimes it might be the result of getting hit by a stun right when you press the key bind or perhaps you blatantly overlooked the cooldown reset. Furthermore, all marauders would survive longer (over time) with passive talents improving their survivability compared to these "endless" active abilities due to the fact that they are dependant upon activation (meaning if you get stunlocked and group focused, exactly how effective are those defensives that happen to be off cooldown to you when you can't do anything with them) - this isn't exclusive to getting focused, either - I can't tell you how many times I've had undying rage off cd go wasted in a 1v1 due to a well-timed stun followed by burst dps. The most significant thing we have is honestly force camo - due to its flexibility of function, application and always because we lose aggro (well, they made it so that target markers can be keybound - when I'm on other classes, guess which class gets the fire symbol bound to the "u" key for quick group focus-firing and retargeting =p ). The cooldown timer on force camo alone is what makes it our best (I'm not saying always most effective - the rest all have significant situational application, but force camo benefits every situation) ability.

 

"*edit* and yes PvP isn't balanced around 1on1s. That doesn't mean that 1 class should rule them all though. Espescially since the defensive CDs of mentioned class do not lose any potency in group PvP either"

 

- When you say this, it really makes me think you don't know marauder/sentinel very well. Each of those activated abilities is best used in situational circumstance. If you're in the middle of group pvp and pop any and/or all of them without getting attacked, you realise that you just half-way killed yourself? Cloak of pain is only worth using when you know you will be hit at least once every 6 seconds (i.e. focused) - saber ward is rarely off CD and you don't ever pop this unless you're getting hit by multiple maras/sents and/or snipers/slingers - if you use this ability for its damage mitigation, you're wasting it. Undying Rage buys us 3 GCD's every 75s - costs us half our current health to use (no point using it at full life, so we attempt to maximize its efficiency by popping it as close as possible near death - which makes the predictable application of this ability very easy - in group pvp, the only time an enemy mara/sent actually gets undying rage off before dying is if someone on our team that isn't in our group has maxed his resolve).

So... cloak of pain equally effective in group pvp? If you're getting hit.

Saber ward? If you're facing certain classes, this can become exponentially more useful than 1v1 application, particularly when used in conjunction with obfuscate (assuming you're in range to obfuscate).

Undying Rage? Derp. Against a good group, this doesn't get to be used, boss!

Force Camo? Yes. This ability is never wasted.

Edited May 18, 2012 by SinnedWill