Ohlen admits sage/sorc healing broken

[Armelle]

Just my 2 cents. Yeah Sage lacks some of the things that other healers do, and it does take a bit more skill to stay in the fray. However any sage complaining that it's unplayable, or to weak needs to re-learn the class. In PvP specifically. I have never had a problem with being squishy, or not being able to heal myself AND heal another. unless theres 2-3 dps on me all decently geared and interupting. The only class ive died to 1v1 is a very very select handful of sentinel's, i can name them on 1 hand. If you dont understand your rotations or when to do them, or how to fake an enemy into interupting the wrong move, just stop playing a sage. and in PvE if your tanks doing his job, healing and resource management is easily managed.

 

sages who argue different, need to look at healers like me (Bellatrice), rowling or willie on The Harbinger. even w/o a gaurd we know how to get what needs to be done, done. Not saying were the best, but were examples of how you play a sage in the heal spec.

 

Grats on your guild and their premades. The fact that you even *mention* guard tells the story. No solo queueing healing sage would ever make a statement like "even without a guard". They would say "it's a miracle, someone guarded me...BLESS YOU, GOOD SIR!".

 

Not really a basis for commenting on balance, though. You're living in the ritzy neighborhood.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Armelle

[LancelotOC]

Just my 2 cents. Yeah Sage lacks some of the things that other healers do, and it does take a bit more skill to stay in the fray. However any sage complaining that it's unplayable, or to weak needs to re-learn the class. In PvP specifically. I have never had a problem with being squishy, or not being able to heal myself AND heal another. unless theres 2-3 dps on me all decently geared and interupting. The only class ive died to 1v1 is a very very select handful of sentinel's, i can name them on 1 hand. If you dont understand your rotations or when to do them, or how to fake an enemy into interupting the wrong move, just stop playing a sage. and in PvE if your tanks doing his job, healing and resource management is easily managed.

 

sages who argue different, need to look at healers like me (Bellatrice), rowling or willie on The Harbinger. even w/o a gaurd we know how to get what needs to be done, done. Not saying were the best, but were examples of how you play a sage in the heal spec.

 

Can you tell me how a Sentinel and a Sage can beat a Marauder and an Op? Assume both melee are specced the same. Lead schedule format prefered. Thanks.

[xxprimalxx]

Can you tell me how a Sentinel and a Sage can beat a Marauder and an Op? Assume both melee are specced the same. Lead schedule format prefered. Thanks.

 

Its a trick question. Unless the marauder, Op team is extremely retarded or undergeared. They are wipe the floor with the sent/sage team and will probably do it one handed while holding an ice cream cone or beer

[Vinak]

Unless there were 2-3 of them cross-healing eachother and their DPS. : )

 

oh...you mean if people played as a team....

[Bolanos]

Can you tell me how a Sentinel and a Sage can beat a Marauder and an Op? Assume both melee are specced the same. Lead schedule format prefered. Thanks.

 

I know this wasn't aimed at me, and as healer, since I personally have not played a seer, am not sure of the answer. However, as a DPS sage, this is possible to do but the sentinel and the sage have to be on the same page. Bubble myself, Bubble sentinel, start battle, snare maurauder, stun healer and pray he uses his CC to break stun, meanwhile sentinel should be after marauder keeping him off of me. once Op uses his CC, which you have to pray that he does, you then use force lift on him to keep in at bay just long enough for you to heal and help dps the maurader down, by the time the maurader is down force lift should have ended and you can then attack the Ops healer. However, any 'good' player would know that force lift is coming after the stun, so they won't use the cc for a short timed stun. So if he's a good player, then they will rip us a new ******e

Edited May 22, 2012 by Bolanos

[xxprimalxx]

I know this wasn't aimed at me, and as healer, since I personally have not played a seer, am not sure of the answer. However, as a DPS sage, this is possible to do but the sentinel and the sage have to be on the same page. Bubble myself, Bubble sentinel, start battle, snare maurauder, stun healer and pray he uses his CC to break stun, meanwhile sentinel should be after marauder keeping him off of me. once Op uses his CC, which you have to pray that he does, you then use force lift on him to keep in at bay just long enough for you to heal and help dps the maurader down, by the time the maurader is down force lift should have ended and you can then attack the Ops healer. However, any 'good' player would know that force lift is coming after the stun, so they won't use the cc for a short timed stun. So if he's a good player, then they will rip us a new ******e

 

The more likely scenario would be

Op gets the opening on sage

marauder immediately force jumps and proceeds to face **** you

sent goes after Op who starts to kite since he has superior mobility to sage.

By the time the sent has Op down to 95%a health( yes only 5%if health loss) marauder and Op who is also hitting with mobile attacks (which sorcs dont have) sage haas died.

.arauder is now on sent while Op tops their health off and they bugger sent

[pathiss]

Just my 2 cents. Yeah Sage lacks some of the things that other healers do, and it does take a bit more skill to stay in the fray. However any sage complaining that it's unplayable, or to weak needs to re-learn the class. In PvP specifically. I have never had a problem with being squishy, or not being able to heal myself AND heal another. unless theres 2-3 dps on me all decently geared and interupting.

 

2-3 dps on you and you are going to die easily without crossheals -and- guard, unless those 3 dps are the most horrid players to ever play the game, and under geared. A little exaggeration there for effect, but not much.

 

I can take any player in my guild and completely shut your sorc/sage down. Any competent player can shut your sorc/sage down because the only heal they are going to let you get off is your baby heal and hot, and that thing isn't healing through anything. Infusion is going to stay on lock down, your channel is going to broken, and your puddle (if full heal spec) isnt going to output enough healing to make a dent in the beating you are taking or heal through damage on friendlies anywhere else in the fight effectively.

 

Meanwhile, I am going to be keeping my team alive because I can kite AND heal at the same time, and will laugh off your interrupt attempts. Hell, I will still have a fair amount of healing going on even while CC'd. Oh, and heaven help you if I have guard.

Edited May 22, 2012 by pathiss

[xxprimalxx]

Meanwhile, I am going to be keeping my team alive because I can kite AND heal at the same time, and will laugh off your interrupt attempts. Hell, I will still have a fair amount of healing going on even while CC'd. Oh, and heaven help you if I have guard.

 

 

And yet another explaination why sage/sorc healers need a review on defensive terms. For pvp. They are viewed as easy targets and a laughable healer. Unless they are facing unskilled or under geared opponents you will be at a huge disadvantage. If 2v2 teams were active there would be very low if any teams utlizing them in any combination.

[LancelotOC]

Its a trick question. Unless the marauder, Op team is extremely retarded or undergeared. They are wipe the floor with the sent/sage team and will probably do it one handed while holding an ice cream cone or beer

 

You are right it was a trick.

 

A sage/sorc healer shines when he can cast his AE heal effectively or when fights are larger. The thing is as people get better with their classes they know to attack the sage/sorc. When it's bigger battles the sage/sorc healer is more vunerable because of how many can target him/her and simply because more better players will be present the larger the fight.

 

The sage/healer is not weaker these days simply because of 1.2 , he/she is weaker because players have learned to identify and focus him/her. This is why the OP is a better healer, he is better in small stuff and in big stuff he is attacked second after the Sage/Sorc against more advanced players.

 

The sorc/sage against focus fire has to run away because he is suspetible to both pushback and interupts. If you think about it these CC effects largely exist for use exclusively against Sorcs/Sages.

 

Now one could argue that by running away the Sage/Sorc has dragged some people away from the fight with him and this is also part of the things he/she brings to the table. Though I'd argue against better players you can't drag people away from objectives. It's mostly the Sage/Sorc running away to heal up and run back. With the range of the "in combat" effect this running away, if no one follows you, is comparble to dying and respawning. It's entierty of time conluding to where your effect on the objectives was zero. Though this probobly holds just as true to the OP that stayed in the fray and was focused to death.

 

Further the guard mechanic lends itself better to OPs because of it's range limitation and that the Sorc always has to run away.

 

My feelings are there is nothing terribly wrong with the Sage/Sorc healer but rather there is a problem with too much burst. If damage was more normalised we would be able to stand in teh fray and heal others more. Though without wanting to change it into a Sorc vs. Op thing if both classes are intended to play the same role in pvp and burst normalization is out of the question than either we must be buffed defensively or OPs must be nerfed to heal as little as us when mobile, then buffed to heal as strong as us when standing still.

 

I iamgine bringing Ops down to Sage/Sorc levels would just exhasberate the killfest we currently have.

Edited May 22, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Mathieus]

You are right it was a trick.

 

A sage/sorc healer shines when he can cast his AE heal effectively or when fights are larger. The thing is as people get better with their classes they know to attack the sage/sorc. When it's bigger battles the sage/sorc healer is more vunerable because of how many can target him/her and simply because more better players will be present the larger the fight.

 

The sage/healer is not weaker these days simply because of 1.2 , he/she is weaker because players have learned to identify and focus him/her. This is why the OP is a better healer, he is better in small stuff and in big stuff he is attacked second after the Sage/Sorc against more advanced players.

 

The sorc/sage against focus fire has to run away because he is suspetible to both pushback and interupts. If you think about it these CC effects largely exist for use exclusively against Sorcs/Sages.

 

Now one could argue that by running away the Sage/Sorc has dragged some people away from the fight with him and this is also part of the things he/she brings to the table. Though I'd argue against better players you can't drag people away from objectives. It's mostly the Sage/Sorc running away to heal up and run back. With the range of the "in combat" effect this running away, if no one follows you, is comparble to dying and respawning. It's ideal time where your effect on the objectives is zero. Though this probobly holds just as true to the OP that stayed in the fray and was focused to death.

 

Further the guard mechanic lends itself better to OPs because of it's range limitation and that the Sorc always has to run away.

 

My feelings are there is nothing terribly wrong with the Sage/Sorc healer but rather there is a problem with too much burst. If damage was more normalised we would be able to stand in teh fray and heal others more. Though without wanting to change it into a Sorc vs. Op thing if both classes are intended to play the same role in pvp and burst normalization is out of the question than either we must be buffed defensively or OPs must be nerfed to heal as little as us when mobile, then buffed to heal as strong as us when standing still.

 

I iamgine bringing Ops down to Sage/Sorc levels would just exhasberate the killfest we currently have.

 

This.

[pathiss]

The sage/healer is not weaker these days simply because of 1.2

 

You are right, they were already crazy easy to shut down before 1.2 by competent players. What 1.2 DID do is make it easier for less competent players to do the same thing because they have a full extra second to stop infusion.

[xxprimalxx]

This.

I commend mathieus on hos "this,

" response and 2nda the motion

 

The issue has never been sorc/sage actual healing numbers. The issue is to be an effective combat healer you cannot stay still to cast. Sorc/sages do not have that ability. Their bubbles and 1 hot spell is not enoigh to offset incoming damage and their main heals require you to stand for an extended period in regards to pvp.

[LancelotOC]

Well if anything what happened in 1.2 hides a silver lining. If Ohlen thought all the DPS players were too noobish to use interupts pre 1.2 and hit us with the wrecking ball imagine what he will do now that he thinks we are too noobs to play our Sorc/Sages.

 

I expect full nuclear annhilation of all other classes to help make our class easier to play.

[Gomex]

http://imgur.com/a/hSlRm#3

 

Game one- I soloed healed and still got 0 death

 

Game 2- Game ended with 1:45 min left

 

Game 3- just another 800k I poop out

 

Game 4- Look at the damage taken...0 deaths

 

All you sorcs crying about needing a buff

 

I pity da fool

[Armelle]

I pity da fool

 

I was almost going to click your link but then you quoted Mr. T and invalidated any possible chance of seeming competent/reasonable you might have had.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Armelle

[xxprimalxx]

http://imgur.com/a/hSlRm#3

 

Game one- I soloed healed and still got 0 death

 

Game 2- Game ended with 1:45 min left

 

Game 3- just another 800k I poop out

 

Game 4- Look at the damage taken...0 deaths

 

All you sorcs crying about needing a buff

 

I pity da fool

 

Im betting on horrible pugs and/or you ran in premade or guarded as there are viewable protection points. Given out. Either way healing numbers have never been in question.

[Laforet]

http://imgur.com/a/hSlRm#3

 

Game one- I soloed healed and still got 0 death

 

Game 2- Game ended with 1:45 min left

 

Game 3- just another 800k I poop out

 

Game 4- Look at the damage taken...0 deaths

 

All you sorcs crying about needing a buff

 

I pity da fool

 

Any competent and geared sorc can put numnbers like these (especially in voidstar) if they are let alone to freecast.

 

I assure you, no competent player will let you freecast.

 

So assuming that when you have people on you they are going to shut it down easily and a operative would do better in a pressure situation.

 

Also aoe spam gets you serious numbers but they are 99% useless in any pvp situation.

[Gnoblesse]

Everything else in this thread is garbage. This statement above is the only reality in here.

 

Healing output is fine for sages. DPS sages are %#%ed right now. Healing sages are slightly better but are trailing the other healers by a distinct margin...it's not because of healing throughput, it's because of lack of defensive utility and lack of healing instants, thus requiring sages to stand still and get massacred.

 

Sages need healing left alone save for changing their heals to have one more instant/HoT and one less stand-and-cast heal, but what they really need is another defensive cooldown, or better ones that affect all opponents at once like...say...a mara's OP'ed cooldown?

 

90% of my time in a wz is spent running away from someone while I cast force bubble and my one small instant HoT over and over and over. Stop to cast a real heal? Not really in the cards most of the time. Casting this way in a 2 on 2 means my partner will slowly die, and I will slowly die, while my partner's opponent takes damage but mine does not save for tiny dot ticks. This is where the imbalance comes in...for any other healer this scenario plays out differently. His partner will win the fight handily and/or the healer will live.

 

There's a second, meta-game problem here. A 31/x/x sage healer does *not* have the same access to cooldowns and tricks that other healers do. Most of the goodies are in the other 2 trees. So you'll hear people (in this thread even) spouting off about L2P and roll a hybrid spec. The answer to that is that you can't. Period. If you are in a guild and you are healer you will have a 31/x/x spec for doing HMs and Ops...if you don't, you're a selfish @%#$ and should be jettisoned.

 

I was with you all the way to the last sentence. (And even then, I partially agree with you.)

 

I don't PvE, my schedule is too weird to commit to an ops group - I don't think that makes me selfish. I just know what I can and can't commit to. So I can get away with running 21/20 - however sages who want to do both PvE and PvP..yeah, they're kinda screwed.

 

If it were up to me, I'd move Kinetic Collapse to the spot where Confound is in the Seer tree, and move stuff around in the DPS trees to compensate.

[shadowfoxe]

He stated its not where it should be. Great, admitting it is step one. Now lets get to work on improving survivability. All pvp sorc/sage appreciate finally hearing the truth and hopefully this shuts up the people claiming these classes are fine. Thanks Mr. Ohlen.[/quote

fyi on my server most pvp healers are unbeatable , when 3-4 players are on ONE healer and they are hard to kill when they have 3 healers you might as well forget about winning the match.

[LancelotOC]

If it were up to me, I'd move Kinetic Collapse to the spot where Confound is in the Seer tree, and move stuff around in the DPS trees to compensate.

 

Yep that would fix it.

[Gomex]

Im betting on horrible pugs and/or you ran in premade or guarded as there are viewable protection points. Given out. Either way healing numbers have never been in question.

 

What is going to be different with rated?

 

btw they were all pug games, my premades would end games much faster and don't let me stand out

 

What is so hard about picking out a tank, telling him to guard you and keeping him alive as well as the whole team?

 

I actually understand class roles

 

I make good use of it

 

Unlike half of these forum babies crying for a nerf because they can't be like another class

 

 

BTW, I never posted those links for the healing numbers, it was more the death ratio between my team and theirs....also how I barely died even with all the dmg taken...in all those games I was being tunneled by 2-3 people at a time.

 

Sorc healers are more op than people think

 

They just don't look at the right numbers like most of you did just now

Edited May 23, 2012 by Gomex

[Gomex]

Any competent and geared sorc can put numnbers like these (especially in voidstar) if they are let alone to freecast.

 

I assure you, no competent player will let you freecast.

 

So assuming that when you have people on you they are going to shut it down easily and a operative would do better in a pressure situation.

 

Also aoe spam gets you serious numbers but they are 99% useless in any pvp situation.

 

Did you seriously say aoe spam is 99% useless in any pvp situation? This is how I know you're terrible and shouldn't speak anymore about any kind of pvp situation

 

I'm known on my server for being the best heals. I also don't stand in the open just letting anybody free cast onto me. That being said, my teammates know they have a better chance of winning when I'm alive, therefore peel targets off me

 

You honestly think I don't get tunneled to death by every warrior?

 

I actually "juke" interrupts by letting them interrupt something that isn't my priority to get off

 

I'm also GCD capped

 

in those links, I maybe got off 5 dark infusions each game? if I'm lucky

Edited May 23, 2012 by Gomex

[oncura]

Read a few replies after my comment and still stick to my "everyones full of it" thought on this. Yeah sage isn't the best but it is nowhere near as bad as people say it is. And to say, whoever it was, ANYONE in your guild could shut down a sage. You dont play against any good sages it seems, You can only interupt so much e.t.c. All i really saw in those posts is "oh well, the entire sith side of your server must have 0 skill if you survived". Really just..eh. This game isn't dieing to bad game mechanics it's dieing to lazy people, and arrogant people. Yes im arrogant but I've proved my point in many games before and I will continue to.

 

However mr. Ohlen or w/e his name was, I'll gladly take some push towards the other healers.

[LancelotOC]

They dont want us to be as good as the other healers. We hit our target so it safe to assume we were meant for group organised play with 2 non sorc pocket healer and a tank guard. Good for Voidstar where we are grouped up and Huttball where we have ledges and pulls, bad for Alderran and Novare Coast where we get split into smaller groups.

[iphobia]

http://imgur.com/a/hSlRm#3

 

Game one- I soloed healed and still got 0 death

 

Game 2- Game ended with 1:45 min left

 

Game 3- just another 800k I poop out

 

Game 4- Look at the damage taken...0 deaths

 

All you sorcs crying about needing a buff

 

I pity da fool

 

- There are 2 other people with >300k heal, so you didn't solo-heal.

- Terrible enemies, highest damage is 350k, only one healer.

- http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5762/screenshot2012042720121.jpg < Just another nearly 1.1mio I poop out

- 116k damage taken, should this be much? I have games with over 300k damage taken and 1-2 deaths

 

None of the things you listed is a valid argument for sorc not being broken.

 

 

Here I have some valid arguments for you why it IS broken at the moment.

 

- AoE-whoring doesn't help you in competitive PvP.

In competitive play, focusfire > AoE-damage. AoE-heals won't keep your target up.

There will also be too much movement to place the AoE-heal perfectly.

 

- Kiting doesn't help you in competitive PvP where 3+ people will focusfire you.

You won't be able to get anywhere if they do it right.

 

- Bursthealing - oh, wait, we have NO burstheal. 6k crits with 2.2s casttime or 3k crits with 1.2s casttime.

None of them is burst if you compare it to the burst damage numbers some classes can dish out.

 

- Defensive cooldowns - Oh, wait, we have NO defensive cooldowns.

Our bubble is used as an active healingspell, this doesn't count as a defensive cooldown.

Force speed/stun/knockback are also no defensive cooldowns, they are utility cooldowns.

Defensive cooldowns reduce the damage you take/make you immune to interrupts while utility cooldowns allow you to get away/kite.

 

 

It still works well against noobs. But if you face a good group, you will enjoy your time at the respawn. Whenever it comes down to focusing someone, you are the one who is gonna get ripped apart within seconds.

Edited May 23, 2012 by iphobia