How to completely counter a Marauder

[arkzehhh]

If a thesis needs to written in order to counter a Marauder, then that screams OP. The fact is that WZs are much more enjoyable when Marauders/Sents aren't in them.

 

this too an extent... though any good player such as myself can deal with them 1on1 without breaking a sweat, it's called skill, though since most lack such a thing... well Nerf away!

[TheNotorius]

I stopped playing my Marauder because it's not even a challenge. Far too easy atm.

 

I hope people have multiple characters when they judge classes, otherwise their opinions are one-sided.

This is a REALLY important point, it gives you a better vision of the overall balance.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TheNotorius

[LiveandDieinLA]

The easiest solution is to just roll a Marauder yourself and then see what other people do to counter you.

 

When i tried that, all that happened was that my Marauder just wrecked everyone. So my conclusion so far is nobody can actually counter this class reliably. In which case you don't really have a problem, since you can just play your Marauder.

 

The bigger issue is I guess people that don't want to play a Marauder for whatever reason. All 3 specs are viable and most people play Anni, but I personally am leaning towards Carnage these days. You can just switch out every week and it makes it more fun honestly that way.

 

The problem for opponents is they don't know what spec you have, and what counters there are, are different depending on the spec. It's kind of funny, Marauder is like 3 different classes in itself while many classes only have 1 viable spec at best.

 

If someone can't recognize what spec a mara is in instantly after targeting them then they are just bad.

Good players know what abilities, forms, cells, procs do and what their buff icons look like, and base how that fight on what their opponent is doing.

[gauchotodd]

If a thesis needs to written in order to counter a Marauder, then that screams OP. The fact is that WZs are much more enjoyable when Marauders/Sents aren't in them.

 

This is so disheartening to read... this attitude is the reason why people are keeping themselves underpowered against this class. In lower-level PvP, Snipers would wreck me over and over and over until I... wait for it... figured out a way to wreck them first.

[gauchotodd]

When i tried that, all that happened was that my Marauder just wrecked everyone. So my conclusion so far is nobody can actually counter this class reliably. In which case you don't really have a problem, since you can just play your Marauder.

 

As a Sentinel, I have no problem wrecking Marauders time after time

[TheNotorius]

This is so disheartening to read... this attitude is the reason why people are keeping themselves underpowered against this class. In lower-level PvP, Snipers would wreck me over and over and over until I discovered pillars in the maps.

fixed it for you

[Cempa]

Your guide is valid only if every other class gets a cleanse button -and build- then you are right. Edited May 16, 2012 by Cempa

[Uchoo]

Roots are the greatest weakness of a Marauder. The Commando's/Mercs I have problems with are the ones who chain together big burst and use their defenses to keep me on the defense.

 

Let's try an example:

 

I'm a smart Marauder so I sneak up on Commando without wasting Force Leap.

Me: Battering Assault

Commando: Cryo Stun

Commando: Grav Round

Commando:Grav Round

Commando: Grav round, gets interrupted by me.

Marauder: Massacre

Commando: Big Knockback. Explosive Dart equivalent

Marauder: Walks short distance to get back in Force Leap range, Force Leap.

Commando: Lands Grav Round midair, Heat Seeking Missile fires, Concussion Missile equivalent. Starts kiting.

Marauder: CC Breaker, Force Choke.

Commando: Unload Equivalent or Rail Shot Equivalent.

 

Now at this point, the Marauder is probably fairly hurt. If he's got guts, here's what he'll do:

 

Marauder: Battering Assault

Commando: Grav Round, gets interrupted. Power Shield.

Marauder: Gore

Commando: Whatever DPS ability they like at this point, they are pretty much forced to tank the Mara unless they use their other knockback and immediately start running the other way.

Marauder: Deadly Throw

Commando: Rooted, starts Grav Round

Marauder: Ravage

Commando: Grav Round

Commando: Grav Round

Marauder: Force Scream

 

 

It goes on from this point, there are a lot of variables here so I'm keeping it pretty simple. It gives you a good idea of how an intelligent Commando will handle a Carnage Marauder. The important part is the burst with the explosive dart, grav round, HSM combo. That big dps spike might be enough to force that Marauder to cloak away, in which case you've taken them out of the fight and you win. If not, that's the time to use Power Shield. With your dps lead in this scenario, you've got a very good chance to win.

 

Edit: One more thing about this situation: The Marauder landed Massacre, but in that amount of time, his 6s buff fell off so he needs to start his new rotation which is Massacre, Gore, Ravage, Force Scream. Interrupting any part of this rotation kills their burst almost completely.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Uchoo

[Uchoo]

Your guide is valid only if every other class gets a cleanse button -and build- then you are right.

 

I included a disclaimer towards the top of the guide that some parts of your success may rely on having friends.

This is a team game after all.

[Leiralei]

Commando Medic vs Carnage

[Ehlin]

Roots are the greatest weakness of a Marauder. The Commando's/Mercs I have problems with are the ones who chain together big burst and use their defenses to keep me on the defense.

 

Let's try an example:

 

I'm a smart Marauder so I sneak up on Commando without wasting Force Leap.

Me: Battering Assault

Commando: Cryo Stun

Commando: Grav Round

Commando:Grav Round

Commando: Grav round, gets interrupted by me.

Marauder: Massacre

Commando: Big Knockback. Explosive Dart equivalent

Marauder: Walks short distance to get back in Force Leap range, Force Leap.

Commando: Lands Grav Round midair, Heat Seeking Missile fires, Concussion Missile equivalent. Starts kiting.

Marauder: CC Breaker, Force Choke.

Commando: Unload Equivalent or Rail Shot Equivalent.

 

Now at this point, the Marauder is probably fairly hurt. If he's got guts, here's what he'll do:

 

Marauder: Battering Assault

Commando: Grav Round, gets interrupted. Power Shield.

Marauder: Gore

Commando: Whatever DPS ability they like at this point, they are pretty much forced to tank the Mara unless they use their other knockback and immediately start running the other way.

Marauder: Deadly Throw

Commando: Rooted, starts Grav Round

Marauder: Ravage

Commando: Grav Round

Commando: Grav Round

Marauder: Force Scream

 

 

It goes on from this point, there are a lot of variables here so I'm keeping it pretty simple. It gives you a good idea of how an intelligent Commando will handle a Carnage Marauder. The important part is the burst with the explosive dart, grav round, HSM combo. That big dps spike might be enough to force that Marauder to cloak away, in which case you've taken them out of the fight and you win. If not, that's the time to use Power Shield. With your dps lead in this scenario, you've got a very good chance to win.

 

Edit: One more thing about this situation: The Marauder landed Massacre, but in that amount of time, his 6s buff fell off so he needs to start his new rotation which is Massacre, Gore, Ravage, Force Scream. Interrupting any part of this rotation kills their burst almost completely.

 

If you broke the first initial stun any advantage he had is gone. Also, concussion missile is so easy to spot, you could easily interrupt it. Only way you couldn't is if he uses the instant cast move.

Also force leap has a range of 30m, so after the KB you could immediately jump to him. Unless of course it's a huttball match, which is the only place our KB is truly very useful.

[Derian]

The easiest solution is to just roll a Marauder yourself and then see what other people do to counter you.

 

When i tried that, all that happened was that my Marauder just wrecked everyone. So my conclusion so far is nobody can actually counter this class reliably. In which case you don't really have a problem, since you can just play your Marauder.

 

The bigger issue is I guess people that don't want to play a Marauder for whatever reason. All 3 specs are viable and most people play Anni, but I personally am leaning towards Carnage these days. You can just switch out every week and it makes it more fun honestly that way.

 

The problem for opponents is they don't know what spec you have, and what counters there are, are different depending on the spec. It's kind of funny, Marauder is like 3 different classes in itself while many classes only have 1 viable spec at best.

 

It's obvious what spec a marauder is. If you have to ask then...lol.

[Astarica]

The strats listed here wouldn't even work in theorycraft let alone the real world.

 

A class doens't become overpowered if shooting Grav Rounds at them can counter it.

[Varicite]

How to completely counter a Marauder:

 

Step 1) Roll a Tankasin.

Step 2) Don't suck.

Step 3) Win.

[Uchoo]

Commando Medic Vs. Carnage.

 

I'm going to throw this info in as a note to anyone: If a Marauder uses Force Charge to get to you, immediately knock them back. It's a 15s cooldown in Carnage or a 12s cooldown if you are annihilation and pick up the talent.

 

There are 2 things I would do as a Commando Medic against a Mara.

 

As soon as you see the Gore buff, concussion missile. Do this because the Marauder will more than likely break the CC and you can use your stun and escape or have a tank move in on the Marauder. If it's a worst case scenario, use power shield and just heal yourself through it. If they're smart, they'll heal debuff but your HPS should still be able to outperform their damage output, especially if you pop some kind of relic.

 

The benefit of carnage benefits you in a way as well: They are going to root you, if you can't move, you can cast heals.

 

If it doesn't work out for you, then you need to have a tank taking care of you. I say this to a lot of healers in the current state of the game. A high-dps character can take you apart if they are allowed to.

 

My opinion on Commandos/Mercs? They need 1 more defensive ability.

[SinnedWill]

Mind if I elaborate somewhat further on counters for marauders?

ALL marauder specs are incredibly vulnerable to roots (pretty much equivalent to a stun) and all of them suffer significant DoT damage (DoT application is situationally arguable, however, since long duration DoT's tend to cause their cloak of pain defensive to last full or longer durations - but always DoT them up if you see their cloak of pain expire - keep in mind that DoT damage alone usually isn't enough to overtake an annihilation marauder due to their self-healing). Accuracy debuffs are almost the equivalent to stuns on marauders as well (well, for annihilation and carnage specs - rage tends to use more force powers than the others, but you'll still deprive them of ~ 40% damage rotation with accuracy debuffs) - accuracy debuffs from tankassins/shadows discharges last quite long and stack with each other (in addition to all other accuracy debuffs) - 2 discharge accuracy debuffs will typically deprive most marauder off-hands from hitting even a 5% base defense class. Taunts and other damage debuffs (which also stack) can really ruing a marauder/sents day (particularly if you apply them when they have their "short window" to dish out maximum possible dps for their spec). Never fill a marauder's resolve early - rely on slows/roots and other abilities that fill resolve minimally-. Any marauder with full resolve is going to effectively have his way with you for long enough to usually kill you. Save stuns + burst damage abilities for when the marauder is ~30% health (more for some classes 1v1, less for others - typically an 80% health stun on a marauder is death if your group knows to capitalize and prime them) - this will negate the optimal application of undying rage marauders love to use. If a marauder happens to pop his UR earlier than you anticipated, you'll at least still have it to cancel out its duration. Even if your stun happens to be on CD and a marauder pops undying rage, you can still debuff, slow, and DoT them up while you kite - just don't use any significant damage abilities until UR wears off (oftentimes, DoT's alone will finish a marauder when UR wears off).

 

Rage marauders - expect them to always get a fully empowered smash off without any possible method of prevention every force camo cooldown - if you see any mara or jugg in Shii-Cho Form (blue stance icon) avoid group clustering as much as possible.

 

Carnage Marauders - typically the easiest marauder spec to prevent from dealing full damage potential. Its burst damage comes from gore procs (as the OP has pointed out efficiently) - which has a 6s duration. Well, if you learn to recognize the gore combat animation and/or the buff icon from gore that appears on them, keep out of melee (use root/knockback/slow or combinations of all 3 if you must) for its short duration - typically a short-ranged knockback + slow will keep you from all significant melee damage the carnage marauder would normally be utilizing to decimate you - carnage maraduer DPS is fairly insignificant (outside of ataru-procced screams infrequently) until gore's CD returns and you can actually face-tank them as many ranged specs (and healers) for the duration.

 

Annihilation Marauders - an advanced tactic that wasn't covered is the method of applying their charged saber's DoT's to multiple targets via sweeping slash, however I'm not 100% certain whether or not this is even possible anymore, but I remember being able to get all 3 Deadly sabre stacks up on multiple enemies (-requires building 12 rage first- that cluster via Deadly Saber + Sweeping Slash x3 - maximum of 5 targets). Only on voidstar, following bomb plants have I ever gotten 3-stacks on 5 people, and this was back during beta, so I'm not 100% certain whether or not Deadly Saber's charges get consumed per target application or per skill application anymore (skill application used to be the case, hence 3 stacks on 5 targets). If someone can verify for me whether or not this is still functioning currently, I'd appreciate it, but either way, keep in mind that Annihilation marauder survivability (and sometimes rage management) increases (SIGNIFICANTLY) if they spread their DoT's out among enemies, but unless the old method of getting fully stacked DoT's still apply, then it will reduce their significant burst damage due to the DoT's being weaker on each target. Look out, however, if the old trick still applies - I remember ~30% Health regeneration over 6 seconds when I did this long ago.

[Bishidoblade]

How a Marauder works: Melee combatant. He has to be in melee range to be of any real use. Every time they use a rage spending ability, they gain stacks of fury. Most Marauder spec to bring this up to 4 stacks per rage spending ability. Most Marauders also spec to gain 2 stacks whenever they take damage (rate limit: 1.5s). When they gain 30 stacks, they can use their berserk ability (does different things depending on which form he/she's in), Predation (group speed buff), or Bloodthirst (15% damage/healing increase for the the entire raid, lasts 15s, CD: 5m).

 

A marauder has 3 specs, each of which are designed to make you very dead. Let me tell you how to easily counter any one of the 3 (NOTE: some of these may required team mechanics, make friends).

 

Rage: This spec has exactly one effective bursting tool, with some supplemental burst and utility.

Berserk: Makes your spammable 3 rage cost attack hit a second target.

 

What the Marauder needs to do to damage you: Use either Force Choke or Force Crush on a target to build up their shockwave stacks. If you interrupt Force Choke, they aren't going to get 4 stacks and their smash will be negligible. Force Crush can be dispelled or resisted, dispelling the ability removes the dot effect and the snare, which counters one of their better burst moves. Either of these 2 will drastically reduce their damage output and their burst.

 

If this cannot be avoided: Watch the animation. If you see them jump in the air, that's the animation for smash. The damage doesn't hit until they land and it's a very small pbaoe. If you use a knockback on them midair or if you run out of range in time, you won't get hit, simple as that. That's pretty much all you need to do to win against these guys.

 

Other notes about Rage: They have a 20% armor pen, their spec allows them to pretty much spam Vicious Slash crits, but it's still not nearly as much damage as the other 2 specs. Watch out for 20% armor pen Ravages as well, as well as the big crit damage on Force Scream.

 

Carnage: This is an insane burst spec. It can be used for huge burst on you, no matter how much armor you have. It has very powerful group utility as well.

Berserk: Makes your Massacre (31pt spammable for Carnage), Vicious Slash (Baseline spammable) and Sweeping Slash (baseline spammable aoe) have a 1s GCD and cost 1 less rage. However, most Carnage Marauders opt to spec 3 points into Annihilation, meaning Massacre and VS refund 1 rage. When a Marauder is 'zerk in Carnage, he's spamming a 1 rage cost ability.

 

What the Marauder needs to do to damage you: 2 things: Build up a full rage bar and use one little ability: Gore. Gore gives 100% armor pen for 6 seconds.

 

If the Carnage Marauder is going to burst you, he has 2 reliable ways to do so:

 

1. Build up about 8+ Rage and use the following rotation: Massacre (for the extra proc chance to Ataru Form), Gore, Ravage, Force Scream. This rotation will wreck you if not interrupted. However, it is very easy to stun a Marauder and completely prevent this rotation: There are 3 buffs that are required for this rotation to work: Massacre's buff to Ataru Form proc chance: 6s duration. Blood Frenzy: Whenever Ataru form procs, Force Scream has a 100% crit chance for 6s, and Gore: 100% armor pen for 6s. So basically if you hit them with a 4s stun, they are going to have exactly 1 GCD to hurt you. What will they do: Probably Force Scream so it isn't wasted. 3k crit and bam, you're safe.

2. Gore, Berserk, Spam Massacre. This is a very dangerous thing. As long as they can stay within melee range, they are going to hit you with truckloads of damage. Remember, their berserk gives them a 1s GCD on Massacre and it now costs 1 rage (but requires 2). Chain this with a relic or some other consumable for insane damage. Every hit of Massacre is guaranteed to proc Ataru Form. With Gore and a relic, you could be getting slapped with 2k+ Massacres and 600+ Ataru's every second. Now that's some DPS! Keep in mind, my Marauder is in crap gear so expect actual damage from someone with gear. How to prevent this? Stun and kite.

 

Other notes about Carnage: The Carnage Marauder is arguably (mathematically) the squishiest Marauder. He runs 15% faster in combat and his Predation increases group movement speed by 80%. Fear this guy. He has 2 very dependable roots, he can keep you in place and hurt you if you let him. Most top-end players like to jump around erratically and stay very mobile to prevent a lot of damage they receive, especially in melee. They like to Line of sight ranged. The root prevents this and doesn't contribute to resolve. Be very wary.

 

Annihilation: This is easily the most popular spec. It has the highest sustained damage out of any spec and it's dps gets higher and higher the longer the Marauder stays in combat. It also has huge rage requirements, delicate resource management, timing, and precision, along with a stroke of luck. It has very good survivability and some good group utility.

Berserk: Gives his dots a 100% crit chance, and his dot ticks heal nearby group members for 2% of their max health. This only last for 6 ticks max. That's at max a 12% health restore. It's ok, but not as good as other uses of fury. It won't double heal the Marauder either.

 

What the Marauder is going to do to damage you: Everyone knows this all too well: Force Charge, Deadly Saber mid-air (off GCD), Battering Assault, Rupture, Ravage/Annihilate. This is a typical backload then frontload type of burst. Most PVP'ers know it all too well. That means it takes awhile to build up your damage but it's incredibly brutal when your dps peaks, then it falls off for quite awhile as it requires a new setup.

 

"But bro-dude, how do I combat this legendary burst if it's allowed to peak because we neglected to CC Marauder?"

"Well my dear Republican, cleanse his dots!"

 

If you cleanse the dots from a Marauder, he has 0 backload. Now he has 2 choices: Ravage or Annihilate. Either of them will hit hard, but an Annihilation Marauder has 0 armor pen. If you have armor, you won't see much damage come from these abilities. Annihilate costs 5 rage (highest rage cost ability of any spec) and Ravage is a 30s cooldown and can be interrupted with CC.

 

Your other option? Prevent the frontload. If you get all the dots on you and CC that Marauder, now he can't frontload you. His dots fall off, you catch a heal and he can't kill you until he refreshes his complete cycle.

 

Other things about Annihilation Marauder: Their Obfuscate (90% miss chance for 6s on one target) and Force Cloak (stealth for 4-6s, 50% DR and 50% move speed increase) are on 45s cooldowns. Whenever their dots crit, they regain 2% of their max health. This makes the Annihilation Marauder the most survivable while taking damage. Both Marauder dots have a 12s cooldown.

 

 

Other things that Marauders may do in general to watch out for: Bloodthirst. If you see this buff, you're in trouble. Everyone including the Marauder does 15% extra damage and 15% extra healing for 15 seconds. This could spell disaster for you and your team if you're not careful. Deadly Saber: 20% heal debuff, stacks with Trauma for a total of 50% heal debuff. 10m range and costs 3 rage. And more, but this was thrown-together rather quickly.

 

A Marauder's worst enemy: A good Sniper with a lot of roots. If a Marauder can't move, he's dead in the water. A Sniper cannot be interrupted in cover. GG.

 

serk:There you have it, enjoy killing Marauders.

 

Sorry had to copy/paste this from the other thread... to funny to resist...

 

OH NO! we have been figured out. This guy obviously is a master of PVP, and has realized that we are easy to kill. Now that the world has a step by step manual on how to destroy us and there should be no need for anymore QQ.

 

He has single handedly broken the cypher that was the Sent/Mara and now the hunter becomes the hunted.... Sages Meleeing us down, Tanks ignoring us - DPS focus firing us since we are now officially easy kills. You sir, have given back to humanity the spark it needed to bring down the OP super-class.

 

 

Gotta love all these DERPS. Make me smile every time i come to the boards. Don't forget your helmet Timmy.

[Uchoo]

The strats listed here wouldn't even work in theorycraft let alone the real world.

 

A class doens't become overpowered if shooting Grav Rounds at them can counter it.

 

So by your logic, Marauders aren't overpowered?

[cycao]

How to completely counter a Marauder:

 

Step 1) Roll a Tankasin.

Step 2) Don't suck.

Step 3) Win.

 

This is correct.

[theworldends]

Roots are the greatest weakness of a Marauder. The Commando's/Mercs I have problems with are the ones who chain together big burst and use their defenses to keep me on the defense.

 

Let's try an example:

...

(Laughable Example Here)

 

In this example the commando uses several 2 minute cooldowns, while the marauder uses none. That obviously can't always be the case and cooldowns favor the marauder. Simply using cloak of pain would make grav round crit for less than 2k, so grenade+grav+demo is only about 5k damage tops. Not nearly enough to put pressure on a marauder. Also, force leap interrupts so using that combo after using a knockback is completely worthless.

 

As for your guide, it's kinda useful but you forgot to mention how to counter the obscenely long string of defensive cd's

[Uchoo]

Sweeping Slash now only applies deadly saber to your current target. I tested this in PvE after 1.2, but who knows I may be wrong.

 

I'll add your information to my guide.

[SinnedWill]

How to completely counter a Marauder:

 

Step 1) Roll a Tankasin.

Step 2) Don't suck.

Step 3) Win.

 

How to completely counter virtually everything:

1.) Roll a Tankasin.

2.) Hope you don't go against an enemy Tankasin.

3.) Win (yes, some player skill will be required against certain players of certain classes/specs and some luck plays a factor - i.e. chance-based procs - but for the most part, Tankasin is quite easy to play and its only vulnerabilities are easily countered).

[Uchoo]

In this example the commando uses several 2 minute cooldowns, while the marauder uses none. That obviously can't always be the case and cooldowns favor the marauder. Simply using cloak of pain would make grav round crit for less than 2k, so grenade+grav+demo is only about 5k damage tops. Not nearly enough to put pressure on a marauder. Also, force leap interrupts so using that combo after using a knockback is completely worthless.

 

As for your guide, it's kinda useful but you forgot to mention how to counter the obscenely long string of defensive cd's

 

I did forget to include the defensive CD's. I'll add that now that it's been pointed out. The example is actually pretty accurate. I would create a flow chart of all variables if I had the time at work to do so. The Grav Round might get interrupted, but that's still a lot of Grav Rounds hitting before the Marauder can effectively DPS. If you're doing 9k damage (2 grav rounds+ the burst combo, by your numbers), that's putting a Marauder at 50% or less, he's worried now.

[Astarica]

When talking about Marauders there are only two interesting theorycraft matchups:

 

1. Tankasin versus Marauder. Tankasin wins every time in theorycraft.

2. Marauder versus Sniper. This would be a draw in theorycraft because there are too many things to theorycraft about.

 

The other Marauder matchups are not even in the theorycraft range. Or, more precisely, Marauder would win every other matchup in theorycraft.

 

Now people say Marauders obviously do not win every fight against someone that isn't a Sniper/Tankasin, and that's the difference between theorycraft and reality, just like Tankasin does not actually win every fight against Marauder too (it's a very complicated fight and you're likely to make a mistake at some point).

 

To suggest there is even a theorycraft counter to Marauder outside of those two shows some serious denial. And unlike the Tankasin who slowly grinds you down and is probably tanking multiple guys at the same time since his role is still a tank, there's no confusion when a Marauder stomped you with sheer DPS. It's an uphill fight for everyone besides those two classes, and in some cases like Commando it's uphill both ways in the snow. You better hope the other guy makes a ton of mistakes while you do everything exactly right in realistic scenarios, and in idealistic scenarios, you're already dead.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Astarica

[Bishidoblade]

Thank god you listed all the ability's , they don't have those documented anywhere for anyone to see. Yet again you impress us with your original thoughts on Mara/sent that you cant find anywhere else besides this post. If you were not here to enlighten the masses with all this new information they didn't have before that might turn the tables, well lets just say humanity as a whole would be lost.

 

Your obviously a pro at PVP, which is the reason your able to weave these amazing and groundbreaking...never before discovered strats together to the rest of us can learn to PWNROFL as hard as you do. Without this information, which is new and not posted anywhere else in the entire world (besides the internet) all would be lost... the masses shall RISE and together...finally...and conqueror the OP scarey glow-sticks of doom. When they speak of this day, they will remember it was YOU who pulled us from the brink of annihilation.