Ohlen on PvP Balance

[syntxerr]

Thank you very much for this interesting interview.

 

As a Sage Seer I was actually hoping for PVP related changes. Not just to my class and others, but also to mechanics adressing all the problems there are. Nothing. And the serious issues some of us have just don't seem to interest them the least. Having dissatisfied many people or in case of Seers alienated some people from their class is being justified by saying that's the way they wanted to have it.

 

Well great for you, Mr. Ohlen. Play your game yourself. Perhaps it would help you a bit in actually seeing the issues so many people are pointing out. However, what bugged me the most about this interview is the attitude, the arrogance shining through.

 

Well then, at least now I know, and Mr. Ohlen said it himself in a similar way: there is not much hope for reverting changes or seeing any significant further changes. And since I'm not enjoying my class as much currently, adding all the other problems PVP and this game in general has at the moment, I will simply not renew my subscription after it runs out in 10 days.

 

Pity, I really loved this game and I'll be keeping a close look at future patchnotes hoping things change and Devs start learning from mistakes. Right now, however I am trying but I keep on getting terribly annoyed by most warzones I do every evening. No point in wasting my freetime on getting annoyed.

[ehtom]

I really don't see the problem. At the current time. Killing a healer 1v1 is very difficult, killing a healer through guard is practically impossible (assuming the healer is not terrible and tries to tank multiple melee dps). If healers were any better than they are now, nobody would ever die in warzones with a couple competent healer/tank combos. As it is, if the enemy has 2 tanks and 2 healers, its ridiculously hard to kill even one healer (who then respawns almost instantly).

 

Bioware have also openly stated that when ranked comes out they will be able to better use their current metrics, which seems like an eminently sensible approach - see what team compositions are the best for WINNING GAMES at the very highest level of play then nerf/buff accordingly until every AC is viable at top level play.

[Alericus]

While I think you have hit the nail on the head with Bioware's plan, the problem is they dont have the time to just wait for the classes to balance out, most pvpers are starting to get very frustrated and will at the end of this month unsub. Sooooooo, as dollars talk, that will likely see a massive change in plans. We may not hear the details but I think the developers and management at Bioware are going to get an earful from their bosses if there is a massive drop in subs this month...and I hedge my bets there will most defintely be a big drop..I dont like it but I know the players Ive talked too arent satisifed with the game as it is now. The pop maybe at too low a level to do anything but merge servers after that. And with a game that has been out only 5 months, thats just sad. Further, any bad press like that just tends to drive away any prospective players who only hear how bad pvp is and how boring end game is and wont even give the game a try. As Ive said before, this game has 1 year to prove itself..and its almost half way and so far nothing is growing the game and the message..stay the course?..well captain ohlen, you continue to drive ss swtor towards the iceberg, ill just get in the lifeboat now and see you back on shore...........

[Keadil]

All I get from this is that no dev has ever played a sage, gotcha. Also, I'm glad that they are using math but it isn't "real." You have to actually test these things on a variety of setups to see if they are fair and effective. I'm going to say that quite frankly, I have no confidence that Bioware has ever done that or will in the future. Edited May 16, 2012 by Keadil

[Metalmac]

As always this Dev ignored the favortism of Imperial animations over Republic.

Like dropping the damage of Republic SLOW Project but leave the INSTANT CAST of Imperial Lightning alone.

 

As a mirror class how is this justified?

It is like giving the Imperial the instant jump in a gunfight and making the Republic unhook the safety while drawing.

And then Bio Ware calls this a even match?

 

And the list of these Imperial Animations being better has not really changed since launch. What crappy balance!!!!!

[Annex]

The hilarious thing is that he talks about resource management in PvP being a key facet of healing.

 

Don't they realise that the 1.2 changes have made it completely moot now? With TTK being so low resource management is a total non -issue. Just die after 30s healing and bang - full force woot!

 

The nerf he chose to ignore (cast time on main heal) is the killer for the sorc/sage class. Ironically our least efficient heal - further reducing the need for resource management. Change that and tone down TTK and the game would you know, actually be fun again.

 

Lazy, lazy work replying on numbers as a crutch when thy obviously don't play their own game beyond a completely casual level.

[SWImara]

The hilarious thing is that he talks about resource management in PvP being a key facet of healing.

 

Don't they realise that the 1.2 changes have made it completely moot now? With TTK being so low resource management is a total non -issue. Just die after 30s healing and bang - full force woot!

This is a pretty good point, when I run out of ammo post 1.2 I am honestly shocked at the moment. Resource management seems like less of an issue than it did pre 1.2 in PvP unless one is wise enough to play in a pre-made. I think it's pretty important to note that class synergy matters quite a bit in SWTOR's PvP design, and I'm not sure that's something that can or should be fixed. When people complained about class balance before 1.2 (all those who claim it is now fine) complaints quite often focused on issues of group composition (Guard+Heal etc) now these issues have been mitigated by everyone's squishiness but are still in an issue in serious pre-made play. The trouble is that solo-queue exists in SWTOR and that some classes are just more feasible to play solo than others. On either my Marauder or my Guardian my ability to murdalize depends very little on who else is in my group, having healers around to keep me up is great but really its more of a bonus than a necessity.

 

The nerf he chose to ignore (cast time on main heal) is the killer for the sorc/sage class. Ironically our least efficient heal - further reducing the need for resource management. Change that and tone down TTK and the game would you know, actually be fun again.

 

Lazy, lazy work replying on numbers as a crutch when thy obviously don't play their own game beyond a completely casual level.

I don't know that I'd go so far as others in stating that they just don't play the game, but the current disconnect over what PvP is post 1.2 definitely sits uncomfortably for me. I don't find GW2 or TERA particularly interesting at this point and I'll be damned if I head back to Panda-land but PvP in SWTOR grows increasingly unenjoyable lately for all three of my main characters imo reduced TTK is not fun.

[V-Serp]

When people complained about class balance before 1.2 (all those who claim it is now fine) complaints quite often focused on issues of group composition (Guard+Heal etc) now these issues have been mitigated by everyone's squishiness but are still in an issue in serious pre-made play. The trouble is that solo-queue exists in SWTOR and that some classes are just more feasible to play solo than others.

 

If the problem was premades vs PUGs, the logical solution would have been to separate them. Instead Bioware's solution is to just do something that as you pointed out doesn't actually affect the issue, but just makes the game unenjoyable for a lot of people.

[Bbizzle]

+1

 

I don't know why but I was actually excited to read that article hoping that there was something in there to give me hope and make me consider re-subbing.

 

Instead, I got one of the softest interviewers I have ever encountered. And Ohlen's answers....well it's just as I feared. The developers just don't acknowledge that their are major problems with pvp. There was nearly nothing in that article about:

 

1) TTK --- very insufficient answer (honestly play your game -- see for yourself)

2) Stuns, cc, mezzes

3) Dying servers

 

Oh well. Just 32 days left and I doubt I'll be logging in any time soon with D3 out.

 

Being on a dying server myself, its my #1 I cant stand it. And its a reason people are quitting. So it should be top priority. "Ill take a break until merges" Is what I keep hearing as the server numbers dwindle.

 

Gotta love being in warzone queues sometimes upward of 2 hours before a pop just to see a 6v6 imp v imp.

[SWImara]

If the problem was premades vs PUGs, the logical solution would have been to separate them. Instead Bioware's solution is to just do something that as you pointed out doesn't actually affect the issue, but just makes the game unenjoyable for a lot of people.

Agreed, ultimately I think we'd all have very different impressions of 1.2 if rated warzones came in along with the group/solo queuing system. Unfortunately that system pretty much requires cross-server queuing at this point given population issues on some/many servers. I like to think/hope that things will get ironed out eventually (though the article doesn't really support my hopes) and until then I've just joined in the PvP DPSfest, at least that is semi-entertaining for the moment.

[AlyxDinas]

The relic changes would be a welcome way to manage TTK, I think. That said, I don't think that relics alone are the thing that's making TTK so backasswards.

[Bpotux]

I really don't see the problem. At the current time. Killing a healer 1v1 is very difficult, killing a healer through guard is practically impossible (assuming the healer is not terrible and tries to tank multiple melee dps). If healers were any better than they are now, nobody would ever die in warzones with a couple competent healer/tank combos. As it is, if the enemy has 2 tanks and 2 healers, its ridiculously hard to kill even one healer (who then respawns almost instantly).

 

Bioware have also openly stated that when ranked comes out they will be able to better use their current metrics, which seems like an eminently sensible approach - see what team compositions are the best for WINNING GAMES at the very highest level of play then nerf/buff accordingly until every AC is viable at top level play.

 

Killing a Trooper and Scoundrel healer is difficult, impossible with a guard, coordination and communication.

Killing or rendering Sage / Sorc healer useless in an average scenario is far to easy.

[whatthefett]

Finally some reason to attend to all the OP qq'ers out there who don't want to learn and develop their class play. Attach this to every forum post in pvp going forward.

[whatthefett]

While I think you have hit the nail on the head with Bioware's plan, the problem is they dont have the time to just wait for the classes to balance out, most pvpers are starting to get very frustrated and will at the end of this month unsub. Sooooooo, as dollars talk, that will likely see a massive change in plans. We may not hear the details but I think the developers and management at Bioware are going to get an earful from their bosses if there is a massive drop in subs this month...and I hedge my bets there will most defintely be a big drop..I dont like it but I know the players Ive talked too arent satisifed with the game as it is now. The pop maybe at too low a level to do anything but merge servers after that. And with a game that has been out only 5 months, thats just sad. Further, any bad press like that just tends to drive away any prospective players who only hear how bad pvp is and how boring end game is and wont even give the game a try. As Ive said before, this game has 1 year to prove itself..and its almost half way and so far nothing is growing the game and the message..stay the course?..well captain ohlen, you continue to drive ss swtor towards the iceberg, ill just get in the lifeboat now and see you back on shore...........

 

This isn't a pvp exclusive game. No one is leaving just because they got killed a few times. If it ain't broke, there's no need to fix it.

[Keggitz]

Although I can survive as a Sorc healer currently, it simply isn't very fun... Currently if I find a game that's more fun then I will play that

 

The interview I'm more worried about... Devs that are completely closed minded generally aren't going to produce a very good product. Meterics are great, but the ultimate meteric is sales. People talk with their subs. Watch the subs in the next couple months. That will determine if people really agree with the decisions made.

 

Unfortunately I see subs going down and I can't see that trend changing.

 

If the game isn't fun why play it?

[whatthefett]

Although I can survive as a Sorc healer currently, it simply isn't very fun... Currently if I find a game that's more fun then I will play that

 

The interview I'm more worried about... Devs that are completely closed minded generally aren't going to produce a very good product. Meterics are great, but the ultimate meteric is sales. People talk with their subs. Watch the subs in the next couple months. That will determine if people really agree with the decisions made.

 

Unfortunately I see subs going down and I can't see that trend changing.

 

If the game isn't fun why play it?

 

What is fun for you in pvp- a combative, elitist venue for every mmo fanboy on the planet trying to kill one another? Isnt it learning, adapting, and mastering your class so that you win in combat? If its there, figuring it out is the fun.

 

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."

[Keggitz]

Figuring out that everyone on the server knows I'm a healer and all i do is run around healing myself as they attack me is not what I would call fun. I've mastered that quite well... I rolled healer to help others and play like a healer. I am a tank in pvp, if more than 1 guy focus me I'm a really bad tank.

 

Figuring out I provide more benefit to my premade team going full madness spec over healing spec is also not what I would call fun. I have a hack of a lot more control with madness that allows me to help burn targets down faster while still getting out utility healing. The only wz you actually need a healer is huttball and even there you really don't. Coordinated dps is extremely destructive, specially with the amount of cc that you have in this game.

[LancelotOC]

I've been scratching my head wondering what Ohlen meant when he said there is a learning curve for our class.

 

Against ranged we have to get out of range. If you stood your ground our DPS is too low to go toe to toe and our 2 CC's are on 60 second timers. They would need to be up. Our mezz is a 2 sec cast in itself and interuptable. Our window to cast one only exists in the 12 seconds a ranged has his interupt down and all their ranged CC down as well. On top of this we have pushback on casted spells. Even talented it seems to double the cast time. Untalented it seems to quadrouple the cast time against channled DPS. You could bubble to protect youself from pushback but bubble has like 3000 hitpoints. You should be able to get off the mezz and then I guess sit and heal yourself? Then try to kill the guy.. it's a gamble.

 

Against melee you can use your knockback. This itself is on a 20 second cooldown. It has synergy with the bubble which also is on a 20 second cooldown. The knockback knocks back for 10 range and it has about 5-8 range itself . People with sprint on move 6 per second. So even with the knockback melee classes with 10 range abilities like forcechoke are still in range to damage you. If they dont have a 10 raneg ability they are in range in under a seocnd if they were pressing their foward key. As such after a knockback it doesnt make sence to stand and heal, you have to move and block LOS.

 

So against everyone ranged or melee, one on one, your best move is to run away.

 

When you do get some distance some classes have gap closers like speed and jumps. So even getting away is often impossible. Especially against any class that uses snares that arent force based since you cant cleanse them. Certain classes even have immunities to CC or even immunities to soft CC like knockback.

 

So now your best move becomes not only run away but use speed to get away.

 

Speed though is not immunity. CC gets through the bubble. Force slow is ignored when using gap closers. So your best again becomes more than this.... you need to block LOS as well.

 

So now your best move is run away , while using speed , and try to block LOS best you can as you do so.

 

Strafe running to minimize angles is the best way. Of coase better players use strafe moving themselves to play the angles against you and get into LOS sooner than you would have hoped. So even this is limited to the player you are trying to escape from. A special case is an Assasin/Sorc who also has sprint. You can't LOS someone else's sprint . They are near impossible to get away from and your strategy against them if CC is down is to run a marathon of laps until CC is up again. Hoping theirs in not up before yours.

 

While running the only heals you have are a 400 heal on your cleanse and the HOT. And of coarse the bubble if 20 seconds have passed. The HOT doesnt stack so even using it too much is of little value but it does have some buffs it activates that are beneficial. All the other heals require you to stand still to use.

 

In conclusion the only things that you have to learn are running away is the always the best choice. If a cast is very important do it shielded to minimize the insane pushback mechanic. Learn to use the various keybindable targeting choices available since you need to target yourself for at least the channled heal and need to target pursuers for CC and especially snare which is only on an 8 second colldown.

 

I see some healers that seem to be using programmable keyboards/mice that will stand spamming while being interupted to get any heal off. Their strategy is based on others peeling/guarding/cross healing for them. It works as you stay in range of people who need heals. Though only works if few are focusing you. If it's too many on the assist train again you need to run and block LOS from them and unfortunatly the people you need to heal. You can also just heal till you die and respawn.

 

If there is anything else anyone else can think of that's available to a heal specced sorc/sage that I missed please add to this. Maybe we can figure out what James is hinting at but otherwise I don't think anything I've said is news to any other Sorc/Sage healer.

[whatthefett]

I've been scratching my head wondering what Ohlen meant when he said there is a learning curve for our class.

 

Against ranged we have to get out of range. If you stood your ground our DPS is too low to go toe to toe and our 2 CC's are on 60 second timers. They would need to be up. Our mezz is a 2 sec cast in itself and interuptable. Our window to cast one only exists in the 12 seconds a ranged has his interupt down and all their ranged CC down as well. On top of this we have pushback on casted spells. Even talented it seems to double the cast time. Untalented it seems to quadrouple the cast time against channled DPS. You could bubble to protect youself from pushback but bubble has like 3000 hitpoints. You should be able to get off the mezz and then I guess sit and heal yourself? Then try to kill the guy.. it's a gamble.

 

Against melee you can use your knockback. This itself is on a 20 second cooldown. It has synergy with the bubble which also is on a 20 second cooldown. The knockback knocks back for 10 range and it has about 5-8 range itself . People with sprint on move 6 per second. So even with the knockback melee classes with 10 range abilities like forcechoke are still in range to damage you. If they dont have a 10 raneg ability they are in range in under a seocnd if they were pressing their foward key. As such after a knockback it doesnt make sence to stand and heal, you have to move and block LOS.

 

So against everyone ranged or melee, one on one, your best move is to run away.

 

When you do get some distance some classes have gap closers like speed and jumps. So even getting away is often impossible. Especially against any class that uses snares that arent force based since you cant cleanse them. Certain classes even have immunities to CC or even immunities to soft CC like knockback.

 

So now your best move becomes not only run away but use speed to get away.

 

Speed though is not immunity. CC gets through the bubble. Force slow is ignored when using gap closers. So your best again becomes more than this.... you need to block LOS as well.

 

So now your best move is run away , while using speed , and try to block LOS best you can as you do so.

 

Strafe running to minimize angles is the best way. Of coase better players use strafe moving themselves to play the angles against you and get into LOS sooner than you would have hoped. So even this is limited to the player you are trying to escape from. A special case is an Assasin/Sorc who also has sprint. You can't LOS someone else's sprint . They are near impossible to get away from and your strategy against them if CC is down is to run a marathon of laps until CC is up again. Hoping theirs in not up before yours.

 

While running the only heals you have are a 400 heal on your cleanse and the HOT. And of coarse the bubble if 20 seconds have passed. The HOT doesnt stack so even using it too much is of little value but it does have some buffs it activates that are beneficial. All the other heals require you to stand still to use.

 

In conclusion the only things that you have to learn are running away is the always the best choice. If a cast is very important do it shielded to minimize the insane pushback mechanic. Learn to use the various keybindable targeting choices available since you need to target yourself for at least the channled heal and need to target pursuers for CC and especially snare which is only on an 8 second colldown.

 

I see some healers that seem to be using programmable keyboards/mice that will stand spamming while being interupted to get any heal off. Their strategy is based on others peeling/guarding/cross healing for them. It works as you stay in range of people who need heals. Though only works if few are focusing you. If it's too many on the assist train again you need to run and block LOS from them and unfortunatly the people you need to heal. You can also just heal till you die and respawn.

 

If there is anything else anyone else can think of that's available to a heal specced sorc/sage that I missed please add to this. Maybe we can figure out what James is hinting at but otherwise I don't think anything I've said is news to any other Sorc/Sage healer.

 

Your entire warzone post is about 1 v 1 combat. That's not objective based goal orientation. No class excels in this regard playing that way and that is why pugs lose. Think about how you can be a support to your other team members who are attacking/being attacked and interrupting on theirb ehalf, healing, or assisting. Also know that you can expect help too. It's not all up to you!

 

Part of the issue James is addressing is the play style mindset. You can beat your head into a wall all day but it will continue to hurt until you figure it out.

[whatthefett]

All the responses are about OP, UP, TTK, math, etc. No one gets it. Not one response about team play, organization, communication in war zones, etc.

 

There's more to class play than "how much x I can do". Just because you can't hit buttons and do whatever you want doesn't mean that there is pvp problem. Show me in the math where my Predation speed burst that, well timed, put the ball in the goal in Hutball and I'll show you overpowered. Or the 5 people I mezzed on the opposing team right before. It makes me laugh.

 

Everyone has their idea of expectations and thats ok, but consider what pvp/warzones are and why.

 

Some of it is bad and problematic, but these guys aren't stupid. Really.

[spellegren]

The Devs really are largely oblivious to what's actually happening in their game.

 

Now that's sig worthy.

Edited May 17, 2012 by spellegren

[Ahhmyface]

Big surprise, forum trolls too busy raging to discover the facts.

 

Bioware has already acknowledged low server pop and slightly too fast TTK. Yeah, "oblivious". Let me guess, you guys think 1.2 was bad for balance too, right? LMFAO. Pro tip: pot, kettle

Edited May 17, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Keggitz]

All the responses are about OP, UP, TTK, math, etc. No one gets it. Not one response about team play, organization, communication in war zones, etc.

 

There's more to class play than "how much x I can do". Just because you can't hit buttons and do whatever you want doesn't mean that there is pvp problem. Show me in the math where my Predation speed burst that, well timed, put the ball in the goal in Hutball and I'll show you overpowered. Or the 5 people I mezzed on the opposing team right before. It makes me laugh.

 

Everyone has their idea of expectations and thats ok, but consider what pvp/warzones are and why.

 

Some of it is bad and problematic, but these guys aren't stupid. Really.

 

I've been talking explicitly about team play as I play on a team. We've found that cc and focused dps to be king. No real need to have a designated healer. If you have a heal as a dps player you use it when appropriate, but your primary task is to burn your focus target down. Side healing as dps also confuses the other teams. They have no clue who to focus.

 

I don't agree with this type of play. Dps is simply too powerful...

[Kleve]

All the responses are about OP, UP, TTK, math, etc. No one gets it. Not one response about team play, organization, communication in war zones, etc.

 

There's more to class play than "how much x I can do". Just because you can't hit buttons and do whatever you want doesn't mean that there is pvp problem. Show me in the math where my Predation speed burst that, well timed, put the ball in the goal in Hutball and I'll show you overpowered. Or the 5 people I mezzed on the opposing team right before. It makes me laugh.

 

Everyone has their idea of expectations and thats ok, but consider what pvp/warzones are and why.

 

Some of it is bad and problematic, but these guys aren't stupid. Really.

 

I'll bite....

 

I'll agree, it's objective based, team oriented PVP. My teams objective seems to be to watch me get focus'd by 5 or 6 other players, then yell at me because I'm dead and can't heal them. "Well, that's what you get for playing with baddies" or "make some friends/join a guild" are then thrown in my face. I am in a guild and I DO have friends. And the three of us can't carry the other 5 and my 2 friends, can't kill 5 or 6 other people fast enough to keep me alive.

 

You all keep blaming 'us' the 'baddies' for server populations being low and consistently coming up against the same "big kids stomping thru the kiddie pool" that occurs on my primary server, Corellian Run. I can't remember the name of the empire guild, but there's one that spends nearly every evening que-ing pre-mades. When that happens, the rest of us stop que'ing. They finally wised up and instead of wtfbbqfishstixpwning us and instead farm us. Yes, they're all running around in WarHero gear, most of us are in mixed recruit/BM gear.

 

Yes, they're head and shoulders better than us and they outgear us by miles. AND THAT'S NOT MY FAULT. It's BW's fault for failing to deliver on the promise of ranked WZ's in 1.2. It's BW's fault for sweeping class changes without sufficient testing/user feedback. It's BW's fault for a host of other things that have resulted in a 25% decline in subs, meaning the pool from which to draw players to compete against becomes smaller and smaller, increasing the odds that my average pvp skills and craptactular pvp gear is going to go up against 2 x 4man premades from the PVP Elite club wearing WarHero gear.

 

That dis-incentivizes me from participating in pvp. Lack of a LFG tool and again, decreased server population, means I can't run PVE stuff instead. And so, with nothing to do, Joe User cancels his subscription to go play D3 or wait for GW2...

 

But it's all *MY* fault and in no way is BW responsible. At all.

 

Which is true when you realize, I have only myself to blame for believing BW would actually deliver on their promises when they repeatedly have let me/us down.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Kleve

[whatthefett]

I'll bite....

 

Yes, they're head and shoulders better than us and they outgear us by miles. AND THAT'S NOT MY FAULT. It's BW's fault for failing to deliver on the promise of ranked WZ's in 1.2. It's BW's fault for sweeping class changes without sufficient testing/user feedback. It's BW's fault for a host of other things that have resulted in a 25% decline in subs, meaning the pool from which to draw players to compete against becomes smaller and smaller, increasing the odds that my average pvp skills and craptactular pvp gear is going to go up against 2 x 4man premades from the PVP Elite club wearing WarHero gear.

 

That dis-incentivizes me from participating in pvp. Lack of a LFG tool and again, decreased server population, means I can't run PVE stuff instead. And so, with nothing to do, Joe User cancels his subscription to go play D3 or wait for GW2...

 

But it's all *MY* fault and in no way is BW responsible. At all.

 

I am sympathetic. This is happening. And low pop servers feel it the worse. But the problem is also non-dedicated "change mmo games every week" players with no consistency or loyalty or ability to play or adapt. Now those guys are gone or playing multiple games. They will be back, and still fail, and leave, and come back, and leave..And the question will remain if pvp in swtor is really that bad, or just needs some tweaks. Hell, if they followed that player base's suggestions we would still have issues and still no loyal players. If they get content, a few fixes, and cross server play it will help tons.