Even if you hated healers before 1.2, the game is worse without our subs

[HanzBlix]

Get some gear, healers are fine. I have a sorcerer that was nerfed pretty hard, and he still heals just fine in half BM/ half Champion.

[Blotter]

This game was rebalanced around 1.2 rated warzones. That means they expected a team working together with guards, taunts and cross heals. In this scenario the game is extremly balanced.

 

When you have the people who would be playing rateds vs fresh 50's because rateds are not out healers are being blown up. There is large gear dispartiy, skill gaps and team work is lagging in a lot of games.

 

If rateds and cross queing was out a lot of the ************ would be solved.

 

HAHAHAHA. No it wasn't. This game was rebalanced around PvE and that's it. There are serious problems with PvP balance that need to be addressed and not admitting it is not being serious. There was almost no testing of the changes as they effect PvP. BW blindly insisted on doing everything the way they wanted without regard to player feedback. Beta is nothing more than bug testing to them and community response is nothing more than background noise because they're too proud to admit when they've committed an epic fail. The subs numbers are forcing it on them now and they're likely to be even more petulant about it before they finally cave and do things like give us transfers, etc.

 

And BTW, anyone who thinks total healing is indicative of effective, efficient healing needs their head examined. It gives no indication of whether the person came through in clutch situations and it certainly gives absolutely no indication of the absolutely ridiculous misery of being a healer and trying to win a duel. If you think that any class shoudl have the problem of needing to be babysat and unable, or at least at severe disadvantage, in a 1v1 duel with any other class, then please see previous comment about needing your head examined.

[Macroecon]

Right now the best healers still contribute more to their team than the best dps do. The difference now however is that a bad healer contributes less to their team than a bad dps does. THAT is different compared to pre-1.2.

 

As one of the top dps on my server, I often find myself tasked (or rather self-tasked) with neutralizing/eliminating the top enemy healer. As relations are fairly cordial on my server, I often find myself chatting post-match with these healers, including those in the opposing faction. Several healers have mentioned to me how draining or demoralizing it can be simply healing themselves while running for their lives the entire match. I can sympathize with that. On the other hand it is also demoralizing to spend an entire match chasing one enemy operative/smuggler healer waiting for your stun to come off CD, and hoping against hope that when you use your stun, you don't get stunned or a 2nd enemy healer doesn't cross heal away your 4 sec window of opportunity. Which they usually do.

 

So I have come to the conclusion that the real problem is simply that we each have suck-y teammates. That explains everything.

[blackadda]

healing is still stronger than DPS... even with my *good* dps spec that is bursting 2400 dps over 9 seconds... a good sorc will easily outheal that... the change just means TWO dps is now equal to ONE healers burst healing, not 3 or 4 dps.

 

Healing is perfectly balanced now

[Ballzz]

pre 1.2 healers were not fine, i once 1v1 a commando healer, i was doing everything as a merc to kill him, interrupt stun knockback, but nothing, he eventually won healing himself, tell me, is that balanced?

 

Actually..yes that IS balanced. The fact that you think it's not sort of highlights the problem in this game. DPS think they should be able to kill a heal spec'd healer 1v1. A heal spec'd healer SHOULD be able to heal themselves and stay alive 1v1. That IS balanced. The healer is never going to be able to kill you outright because their DPS sucks but you can't kill them because they are a healer. it's a wash and that is what we had pre-1.2.

[Xaearth]

At this point you're not even trying any more, but I will respond once more in the hope you turn around.

 

I said, over and over, I wasn't talking about 2 v 2. I'm talking about the far more common 3 vs 2, 4 vs 2, or 7 vs 4 I'm involved in. I'm also talking about net outcome, not individual outcome, and it's effect on the ENJOYMENT of PVP. Let me spell it out for you, and try, just TRY to take your mind away from the troll, FOTM, and OP vs not OP argument.

 

If it makes you feel better, I had edited my post to address more of yours before you replied, dunno if you saw it or not, doesn't really matter.

 

The problem is you're trying to distance yourself from the masses, but you're still stuck up on the same illogical fundamental principles, which is what I'm trying to point out makes your arguments fall apart just as fast as it does theirs.

 

What is the outcome of 4 DPS classes fighting 2 vs 2? 2 or maybe even 3 people die in an intense fight that takes 30 to 45 seconds.

 

What is the outcome of 2 tanks and 2 healers fighting?. Trick question; there is no outcome. That fight continues for ever. No one dies.

 

Another symptom of the mentality that is killing PvP in this game. PvP warzones were not designed as a deathmatch, it's objective based. Winning or losing or any other possible outcome is not dependent on who kills who.

 

That said, I'll humor you. It depends on the class/specs of the tanks and healers as well as their skill and coordination.

 

If they both just try to kill each other, yeah, they're not likely to go anywhere anytime soon. But that's as much their own fault for refusing to work within the system as it is the fault of the system itself. Again, PvP warzones were not designed as a deathmatch. All it takes is for one pair to get the advantage and use it to either rout the enemy or flip the objective.

 

As a relatively simple example: Get them feeling comfortable with the stalemate, then, at the right moment, punt + cc the tank and burst the healer. A kill would be a bonus, but just putting them on the defensive causes a shift in the flow of battle, whether it's forcing a mistake, pushing them far enough from the objective, or even getting them to call for help and weakening their forces elsewhere.

 

Worse, it scales up. You get enough healing and guard in a WZ you can have games where no one dies, and they are simply not fun.

 

Fun is relative.

Most people I know do not consider staring at a white barrier with a Simon turned into a makeshift clock "fun".

Most people I know do not consider button mashing for great justi... err big numbers "fun" either.

 

Many people I know do consider strategic use of one's abilities to work together as a team in new and creative ways to turn the tide against an otherwise equally matched and deadlocked opponent... interesting, if not outright and intrinsically "fun".

 

You're also ignoring numbers; for example, in a match where I heal 350k and the tank guarding me has 250k protection (a "good" but not outstanding or uncommon outcome). We have single handedly "removed" 600k of damage from that warzone. Poof, it didn't happen. Unless there are 2 DPS on the other team that DID 600k of DPS, we are not balanced; we remove more damage as two people then two other people can put out, and are simply more useful in the warzone then the people putting out damage. I can't remember the last time a DPS outdamged my healing (or came close) but it was pre 1.2 and a pryo spamming AOE.

 

And your numbers assume they have no healers.

Despite that, and the obvious foolishness that is referring to warzone scoreboards...

Erm... are you really trying to argue that 2 DPS can't put out 300k damage a piece?

Edited May 14, 2012 by Xaearth

[lexiekaboom]

Actually..yes that IS balanced. The fact that you think it's not sort of highlights the problem in this game. DPS think they should be able to kill a heal spec'd healer 1v1. A heal spec'd healer SHOULD be able to heal themselves and stay alive 1v1. That IS balanced. The healer is never going to be able to kill you outright because their DPS sucks but you can't kill them because they are a healer. it's a wash and that is what we had pre-1.2.

 

That's not completely true. If it was a wash would be; if DPS can only dps and DPS can only heal. However, as soon as other abilities are added you need to reconsider. You also have to consider that any healer can DPS, but most DPS can't heal. Balance would mean the "heal + dps" number for a sniper would be the same as the "heal + dps" number of a sage, meaning the sniper should kill the sage 1 vs 1 almost every time.

 

From a design standpoint you are also encouraging trump classes, which is a bad overall goal. If any healer should be able to stay alive vs any dps, then healers simply trump dps as they never lose to them; the best any DPS can hope for is a draw, and a lose is still very possible (seeing healers can DPS).

 

If this was hockey and one team could never lose, the worst outcome it could possibly have is a tie, it would be the dominate team. You would be stupid if you didn't say they were the "best".

[Annex]

healing is still stronger than DPS... even with my *good* dps spec that is bursting 2400 dps over 9 seconds... a good sorc will easily outheal that... the change just means TWO dps is now equal to ONE healers burst healing, not 3 or 4 dps.

 

Healing is perfectly balanced now

 

2.4k over 9seconds? Were you afk? Lag?

 

Healing isn't over nerfed. TTK is overbuffed and sorcs/sages are overnerfed, not quite the same thing.

[Sylvan]

I just cancelled my sub. Played Sage healer from launch. We did need a nerf, to be sure in terms of force regen and double tapping deliverance, but Bioware went too far. Combined with how slow they are to fix bugs and balance OP classes, I just can't be bothered paying money to wait for them to sort the game out.

 

They also have done almost nothing substantial for the roleplay community since launch except a few emote fixes.

 

/forceghost

[Xaearth]

That's not completely true. If it was a wash would be; if DPS can only dps and DPS can only heal. However, as soon as other abilities are added you need to reconsider. You also have to consider that any healer can DPS, but most DPS can't heal. Balance would mean the "heal + dps" number for a sniper would be the same as the "heal + dps" number of a sage, meaning the sniper should kill the sage 1 vs 1 almost every time.

 

From a design standpoint you are also encouraging trump classes, which is a bad overall goal. If any healer should be able to stay alive vs any dps, then healers simply trump dps as they never lose to them; the best any DPS can hope for is a draw, and a lose is still very possible (seeing healers can DPS).

 

If this was hockey and one team could never lose, the worst outcome it could possibly have is a tie, it would be the dominate team. You would be stupid if you didn't say they were the "best".

 

I'd like to know where this perpetual myth that healers can DPS keeps coming from.

If anything the 1.2 nerfs should have clarified the dev team's position that a healer can choose to heal or DPS, but not both... primarily because they can't afford it with the tighter resource management.

 

In other words, each resource/GCD spent on DPS is a resource/GCD not spent on healing (in your oversimplified terms: Heals + DPS - potential healing lost = Heals), and pretending otherwise is just plain foolish.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Xaearth

[Caeliux]

Right now the best healers still contribute more to their team than the best dps do. The difference now however is that a bad healer contributes less to their team than a bad dps does. THAT is different compared to pre-1.2.

 

^

 

You can't get more honest truth than that.

 

+1 and a /endthread

[CrunkShizzle]

2.4k over 9seconds? Were you afk? Lag?

 

Healing isn't over nerfed. TTK is overbuffed and sorcs/sages are overnerfed, not quite the same thing.

 

if you wanna talk about overnerfed.look no farther then scoundrel/operative dps

 

the example of bioware pvp dev incompetance

[YavinResident]

I'd like to take the OP's original idea of force additives versus force multipliers and modify it slightly.

 

I'm an operative healer with 77 valor and have seen my fair share op PvP, and this is the reality. The only true force multiplier in PvP is coordinated and focused damage on the right targets. In SWTOR's PvP (at least from a metagame prospective), the healer's role is to provide sustainability to a team of fighters who move through the map together, fighting more or less nonstop. I see my role as providing the DPS with uptime so they can get the kills and captures we need to win.

[Masturomenos]

Id rather hear about one issue then 100. Healing being OP was creating one issue everyone agreed on that is that healers were OP. Nerfing healing created too many issues and made flaws not visible before a issue after.

 

Ttk to short how to fix better healing

Dying in a stun lock how to fix more healing

Recruit gear being too squishy how to fix more healing

Raiding to hard how to fix more healing

Melee dps being useful how to fix more healing

Tank spc being only viable toon to play other then ranger how to fix more healing

Matches unbalanced because one team has more tanks then the other how to fix more healing

Burst dps to high way to fix more healing

The list goes on and on

 

If healing is buffed the result is longer matches that are determined by bad decisions and inability to control objectves. That doesnt sound to bad to me. I mean whats the worst scenario a player can live long enuff to see the benefits of resolve cap? Its not like healers werent rare pre 1.2 only one (sorcs) was even more then 1% of a wz team. I would rather the community complain about 1 problem then whats happened since 1.2. The other way to fix the issues we have is to redo tanks and dps change stats adjust core mechanics and redo everything done since 1.1 and 1.2. I think instead of chaging 99% of the game which clearly didnt work in 1.2 that maybe we try to change 1% of the game fix healing and see what happens then. If it doesnt work then we can always try another small change. The result of small changes quicker patches and less subs lost. The result of major, untested, sweeping changes? Well if 1.2 was the fix then the result is losing hundreds of thousands of subs.

 

Hopefully someone at BW sees these forums today but i have a feeling they are in line for D3. I mean not like there arent more players waiting to play D3 then there are actually playing swtor.

[Astarica]

Um... healing is not inherently worse or better than DPS at any level of skill play. Good DPS trumps good healing sometimes, and sometimes it does not. Huttball is solidly in favor of healing (try to score a goal without healing) but all the other 3 maps are reasonably even in terms of impact toward objectives.

 

Right now healing sucks because Sages are a liability against strong teams and a lot of healers are Sages. Mercs and Ops are still fine.

[Isislol]

There's a couple of great healers on my server that never die but they know how to LoS, CC and fake cast. Most healers are used to standing in the open and spamming 2-3 buttons, sorry but that just don't work anymore.

 

Oh, and the people who say they gonna quit and play D3 or GW2. Good Luck to you, I'm sure you will be QQ'ing on different forums soon again.

[EsteRJ]

Um... healing is not inherently worse or better than DPS at any level of skill play. Good DPS trumps good healing sometimes, and sometimes it does not. Huttball is solidly in favor of healing (try to score a goal without healing) but all the other 3 maps are reasonably even in terms of impact toward objectives.

 

Right now healing sucks because Sages are a liability against strong teams and a lot of healers are Sages. Mercs and Ops are still fine.

 

A liability? Seriously? Boy, you really haven't seen a good Sage healer, have you?

 

I totally feel like a "liability" on my Sorc when I kite 2 melees (who get zerged by my team in the process) and still keep everyone else up with hots and shields. Damn, I really shouldn't bring my crappy char into a WZ. Who wants to win anyway, right?

[syntxerr]

Oh come on guys, cut that skill talk nonesense.

 

Show me a Sorc healer outhealing an equally geared and just as smart Sentinel after 1.2.

You won't find one.

 

And if by LOS you mean running away, somewhere completely out of range, making the other player give up chasing you, yes then I agree. You won't outlive him just by LOSing though, because you yourself can't heal when moving and incoming damage is far too great for Rejuv and a bit of Healing Trance every now and then.

 

I'm sorry, but the skill debate just doesn't work. The question is not whether a player can still support the team but whether or not it is fun doing so. And it's simply not. Many people agree on that. Deal with it. In fact, I'd say you need even less skill to play any other role than healing at the moment, especially DPS. Melee classes come with sunts, dots, slows, gap-closers and insane amounts of damage. All you gotta do is find a target someone else is attacking already and roflstomp it within a few seconds.

[syntxerr]

A liability? Seriously? Boy, you really haven't seen a good Sage healer, have you?

 

I totally feel like a "liability" on my Sorc when I kite 2 melees (who get zerged by my team in the process) and still keep everyone else up with hots and shields. Damn, I really shouldn't bring my crappy char into a WZ. Who wants to win anyway, right?

 

Yea, sure. True story.

 

How much does your HoT tick for? Oh wait, I got it... about 10 times less than what a Sentinel would hit the person for during one GCD.

 

You must truly have buttons noone else has, if you can control two melees which have more than enough abilities to close the gap or keep you from running on top of dealing a crapton of damage. And you do all this by keeping yourself and the rest of your team alive with HoTs which tick for a few hundreds...

Edited May 15, 2012 by syntxerr

[Astarica]

A Merc has probably the best defensive cooldowns amongst healers plus an interrupt immunity. They eventually do die but they'll get their heals in before they die.

 

An Operative is very good at getting away, and since their primary heals are HoT/instant, getting away is usually sufficient for them to continue doing their jobs.

 

But Sorc? You pretty much come out behind against a single strong DPS every single time because it usually only takes one of them to force you to start healing yourself and at that point you're effectively neutralized. By the way, if you're guarded, you should expect to face 3 DPS because you're using 3 guys too (healer, tank, and the DPS to ensure your combo actually kills someone).

[EsteRJ]

Yea, sure. True story.

 

How much does your HoT tick for? Oh wait, I got it... about 10 times less than what a Sentinel would hit the person for during one GCD.

 

You must truly have buttons noone else has, if you can control two melees which have more than enough abilities to close the gap or keep you from running on top of dealing a crapton of damage. And you do all this by keeping yourself and the rest of your team alive with HoTs which tick for a few hundreds...

 

You're not even trying. Tell ya what, I just recommend rerolling instead of giving you any advice. Makes it easier for both of us. A little hint though: Your questions reveal that you haven't understood the concept of the whole kiting thing. No, my Hot can't outheal the damage of melees bashing my face. Now guess what? I'm avoiding the damage. Duh?¿

 

Think about that one. Meh, now I gave you advice anyway. I'm just too nice :/

[syntxerr]

You're not even trying. Tell ya what, I just recommend rerolling instead of giving you any advice. Makes it easier for both of us. A little hint though: Your questions reveal that you haven't understood the concept of the whole kiting thing. No, my Hot can't outheal the damage of melees bashing my face. Now guess what? I'm avoiding the damage. Duh?¿

 

Think about that one. Meh, now I gave you advice anyway. I'm just too nice :/

 

Hah, you know that was almost funny. Do you seriously believe you are revealing some divine strategy here by stating the obvious?

 

Nope, you don't. But since you are so damn sure of yourself, I challenge you to make a video of you kiting two DPS melee classes, surviving this and keeping the rest of your team healed with HoTs and shields. I believe that when I see it.

 

The reality looks probably more like this: You run from two melee attackers, which can chop you in pieces within seconds. You desparately try to kite and keep them at distance, while you shield, hot and healing trance youself, even using the dispell as heal, because guess what, they have just as many gap closers. On top of that you use up your one time use medpack as soon as one of the attackers got a free leap and crits you for 7k.

 

During this whole process you are running out of force, which in order to regen requires you to do something totally counter-productive when trying to survive, again while your attackers never have any issues with resource, because guess what, they can slowly gain resource by doing damage and therefore pressuring you, whereas you lose it by healing.

 

Meanwhile your team is being taken apart by the enemy team, while you hop around desparately and try to look useful by throwing them some shields. Note, I highly doubt you're actually able to do that while staying alive, kiting and slowing two attackers at once. But okay, you're great. So your team stays alive thanks to a few hots and bubbles which burst in one strike.

 

Seriously mate, I have seen a lot but this is just ridiculous. I'm sure if you are really that great you'll want to show it to these boards so people stop complaining.

Edited May 15, 2012 by syntxerr

[noladev]

You're not even trying. Tell ya what, I just recommend rerolling instead of giving you any advice. Makes it easier for both of us. A little hint though: Your questions reveal that you haven't understood the concept of the whole kiting thing. No, my Hot can't outheal the damage of melees bashing my face. Now guess what? I'm avoiding the damage. Duh?¿

 

Think about that one. Meh, now I gave you advice anyway. I'm just too nice :/

 

I guess for me the problem is that I never signed up for a class that had to run away whenever they get attacked.

 

Nothing in Bioware's marketing of the sorc or our pre 1.2 experience prepared us for this fundamental change in play style. Had i known I would have went with a class that isn't forced to flee from combat even 1v1. Don't see how you can't empathize with that.

[WaywardOne]

Healers have always been a minority (1 in 4 or less). And a good percentage of those that play healers do it because it wins, not because that person likes playing a healer; if they can't win with healing they switch to something else. I know a few people that used to be healers and have since switched their specs. And I know plenty of healers that are still playing. I can't remember the last wz I've been in that didn't have at least 2 - 4 healers (out of 16) which is close to the same ratio that I saw before 1.2 actually.

 

I'm sure that BW lost far more players by making DPS and melee (the classes that most that like the movies/lore/trailers will relate to) "frustrating" to pvp with.

[syntxerr]

Healers have always been a minority (1 in 4 or less). And a good percentage of those that play healers do it because it wins, not because that person likes playing a healer; if they can't win with healing they switch to something else. I know a few people that used to be healers and have since switched their specs. And I know plenty of healers that are still playing. I can't remember the last wz I've been in that didn't have at least 2 - 4 healers (out of 16) which is close to the same ratio that I saw before 1.2 actually.

 

I'm sure that BW lost far more players by making DPS and melee (the classes that most that like the movies/lore/trailers will relate to) "frustrating" to pvp with.

 

Are you seriously claiming that DPS were frustrating to play with pre-1.2 simply because one of them couldn't take out a good healer alone? If that was the case, warzones in other games like the one that should not be named must've consited of full healer teams. But they didn't.

 

The same goes the other way around. There were certainly not less DPS in warzones pre-1.2.

Edited May 15, 2012 by syntxerr