Power Tech's out dps Merc's

[Aerro]

You made my point, your just here to argue for arguments sake.

 

Everyone that PVP's with a merc or a Power Tech knows full well the disparage between the 2 classes dps. It is common knowledge.

 

I am talking from a PvE standpoint. You didn't iterate in your OP that this was a discussion solely based around PvP. Clearly you do not enjoy reading posts in your own thread. Please try again.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Arzhanin
Quoted removed content

[Malorific]

Aerro has given the most information on the class so far to date, is in the top 5 if not the top trooper in the game, and has given the logs to prove this countless times.

 

He is the standard that we all aim for, and rather than be all elitest about it has gone out of his way to help people both here and on other forums.

 

The OP is correct, Pyro/Assaults are better than Arsenal/Gunnery for PVP.....this is widely known.

 

What the issue here is, is that Powertech/Vanguards Pyro is fairly significantly better than their Merc/Gunnery counterparts - I would expect difference - survival abilities are often offset but lower output. But its quite clear that PT/Vans have both much greater ability to survive AND greater output.

 

Although if I am honest, I think this greater output in PVP is BECAUSE they have greater survivability. Think about it we are measuring output based on the metrics given at the end of the WZ - can't DPS if you're dead, and PT/Vans just die less.

 

PT/Van vs their Merc/Gunnery counterpart on DPS output on dummy parse does show a clear tip in the laters favour. So while they can survive more, we can do greater output.

 

Thats how it should be, the sad truth however is, that even though this is correct, in game this means squat if we are easy targets to kill and therefore can not put out these numbers.

 

The metrics from a developer perspective stack up - but in an actual game environment, its clear that there are some serious issues that need to be addressed between these two.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Arzhanin
Quoted removed content

[Aerro]

Thank you but I can't take all of that gratitude since I have a partner behind the scene (Zero) who brainstorms with me!

 

Also, since I guess this thread is SUPPOSED to be about PvP viability... it isn't even comparable anymore. Back 'in the day', Mercs were lolturrets and could push 600k in a warzone easily by just spamming Tracer on anything that moved. After our nerf we're about as useless as a fresh 50 running the ball in the wrong direction.

 

What pyro has on us is mostly its mobility. Have you seen them spam rapid shots and just ignite their target up? Its kind of funny. You can literally kite people with your instants and kill them if need be. As a merc, you can't do that. If you move, you might as well run away as far as you can because you're screwed. Don't even get me started on being interrupted. Oh whats that? Basically all of your abilities on CD? Don't mind me, I'll just /dance for a few seconds.

[Cronhour]

As of 1.2c, the Armor Debuffs no longer stack as they did before. However, our Powertech is extremely good. We are clearing content at a world competitive pace so we do not have room for players who are sub-par. No one is carried.

 

My DPS tops off at 2700 about 2min into the fight but then it goes downhill after that. On fights that involve a lot of 'sit and wait' like Kephess (waiting for adds to spawn, etc), I'm still pulling ~1400 DPS. On a target dummy my DPS is 1650+ for a 5min duration. Many parses show that Pyro just cannot compare to Arsenal in a raid environment.

 

However, if you are Powertech... you really have no other option and Pyro is obviously the best route to take if you are wanting to do DPS- I cannot argue that.

 

 

I'm actually advanced prototype rather than pyro, I was Pyro pre 1.2 but I found that while it's more complicated and harder to manage the damage can be insane and the extra utility is beautiful, due to drop off we raid 8man right now, I'll try to remember to parse our next HM Kephiss and hope I don't have to bail out a tank death.

 

Last fight I remember running mox was 8 man Karagga Nightmare, I got 1550 dps i think, though the act of carbonizing the mouse droids and getting drilled up while flame throwing reduces my dps and heat management (I was still getting used to the rotation so blew my heat at least twice I need to get used to not having sutomated defenses and seriously they should take the heat cost off carbonize like they did quell.)

 

I expect I'd probably shine on a kephiss fight better than most though as explosive dart followed by stacked flamethower on each pack of shield adds is an insane output in that phase, though I suppose I'd lose out a little to a ranged class on the kephiss phase when he moves out of my flamethower every time he knocks the tank back.

 

On another note what do you mean about the armour debuffs post 1.2? I was aware mercs no longer benifit from each others debuffs as they did previously, but do you mean that each classes debuff (merc, jugg, sniper etc.) no longer stack?

Edited May 13, 2012 by Cronhour

[Aerro]

To answer the other gentlemans question: I meant about different classes having armor pen debuffs. They originally stacked literally to 100% armor penetration, which had been fixed. I do not know to what degree though. Edited May 14, 2012 by Arzhanin
Rude comments

[hulkweazel]

You make two short sentences about PvP in the OP. No one is going to be able to determine it's about only PvP from that. Therefore, any discussion about PvE is relevant. You bashing people for doing so is NOT relevant.

 

PTs are not "meant to tank". They can tank OR DPS. Mercs are not "meant to DPS". They are DPS OR heals. If you think ANY differently then you fail at reading comprehension, since even the beginning tooltips about the advanced classes tell you this.

 

What's funny is you say you "only care about PvP" but talk about PTs getting a shield, which is pretty much irrelevant in PvP.

 

PTs do not have amazing utility. They have a grapple on a 45 second cooldown, a short AoE stun and a 4 second stun. No knockbacks, no real mobility, no mez/ccs.

 

Mercs could certainly use a few buffs, but your post certainly does not help that cause.

[Kelenan]

You make two short sentences about PvP in the OP. No one is going to be able to determine it's about only PvP from that. Therefore, any discussion about PvE is relevant. You bashing people for doing so is NOT relevant.

 

PTs are not "meant to tank". They can tank OR DPS. Mercs are not "meant to DPS". They are DPS OR heals. If you think ANY differently then you fail at reading comprehension, since even the beginning tooltips about the advanced classes tell you this.

 

What's funny is you say you "only care about PvP" but talk about PTs getting a shield, which is pretty much irrelevant in PvP.

 

PTs do not have amazing utility. They have a grapple on a 45 second cooldown, a short AoE stun and a 4 second stun. No knockbacks, no real mobility, no mez/ccs.

 

Mercs could certainly use a few buffs, but your post certainly does not help that cause.

 

The personal attack is not necessary.

 

Power Tech.- 1 blaster and shield.

 

Merc. - 2 blasters

 

Hmmmm Go figure

[Aerro]

The personal attack is not necessary.

 

Power Tech.- 1 blaster and shield.

 

Merc. - 2 blasters

 

Hmmmm Go figure

 

He didn't attack you at all. Also, your comment failed to make any sense at all.

 

If you bothered to read what you quoted, you would have noticed that he did not say that PTs did not have a shield. He said the fact they HAVE shields in irrelevant in PvP- thus making the PvE argument even more valid. Seriously, whatever problem you have- quit it. You seem to have poor attitude since this thread isn't revolving around you.

[Rathmond]

Wow way to hijack the thread Carebears.

 

Im with you in PvP you would have thought by selecting the "DPS" tree/class in Merc you would be doing the highest DPS between the two.

 

Not the case.

 

Powertech Pyro "TANK"

Warzone, about 400k dps

 

Merc "DPS"

Warzone, around 250k dps.

 

huh? Yes, I see this all the time.

 

Now I dont think Powertechs need to be nerfed I just think Mercs need to be adjusted up in PVP because I could go on forever how some PUB classes are OP. I just think thats the George Lucas agreement with Bioware, make sure the good guys win

[Aerro]

Oh the irony of calling PvErs carebears

 

Doesn't gearing up in PvP require just pressing a button and queuing up- and you get rewarded no matter what? I didn't realize getting rewards for losing meant that area of the game was superior. Could've fooled me!

[Macroecon]

What's funny is you say you "only care about PvP" but talk about PTs getting a shield, which is pretty much irrelevant in PvP.

 

I would rather have a shield that helps marginally in PvP than an offhand weapon which actually HARMS you in PvP. Yes, the Merc offhand weapon actually HARMS him in PvP warzones currently. That's because increasingly the most common opponent you face are enemy melee toons. And the multi-attack resolution of Merc abilities coupled with the low accuracy of the offhand weapon virtually assures your opponent will get a free Retaliation/Riposte. Which cause more damage by a magnitude of MULTIPLES than your offhand weapon does. Merc dps is broken - often times you best strategy is simply not to fire. How the hell is that working?

[Kelenan]

Wow way to hijack the thread Carebears.

 

Im with you in PvP you would have thought by selecting the "DPS" tree/class in Merc you would be doing the highest DPS between the two.

 

Not the case.

 

Powertech Pyro "TANK"

Warzone, about 400k dps

 

Merc "DPS"

Warzone, around 250k dps.

 

huh? Yes, I see this all the time.

 

Now I dont think Powertechs need to be nerfed I just think Mercs need to be adjusted up in PVP because I could go on forever how some PUB classes are OP. I just think thats the George Lucas agreement with Bioware, make sure the good guys win

 

Agreed!

[Kelenan]

He didn't attack you at all. Also, your comment failed to make any sense at all.

 

If you bothered to read what you quoted, you would have noticed that he did not say that PTs did not have a shield. He said the fact they HAVE shields in irrelevant in PvP- thus making the PvE argument even more valid. Seriously, whatever problem you have- quit it. You seem to have poor attitude since this thread isn't revolving around you.

 

Stop singling me out to harass please!

[Cuomo]

My DPS tops off at 2700 about 2min into the fight but then it goes downhill after that. On fights that involve a lot of 'sit and wait' like Kephess (waiting for adds to spawn, etc), I'm still pulling ~1400 DPS. On a target dummy my DPS is 1650+ for a 5min duration. Many parses show that Pyro just cannot compare to Arsenal in a raid environment..

 

I should preface by saying I consider many of your posts helpful and have found your theory crafting very informative. I could use some clarification on statements like the one above though. In the log you linked us, it shows your DPS on Kephess fights to be closer to 1200. The last 3 fights in the log show: 1186, 1229, 1207 all on Kephess. Were those just poor attempts, or is it more you get up to 1400 with an average closer to 1200?

 

Again, thanks for keeping the information you gather, as well as the interpretations of it, public, rather than just giving the later as seems prevalent.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Cuomo

[KainrycKarr]

Wow way to hijack the thread Carebears.

 

Im with you in PvP you would have thought by selecting the "DPS" tree/class in Merc you would be doing the highest DPS between the two.

 

Not the case.

 

Powertech Pyro "TANK"

Warzone, about 400k dps

 

Merc "DPS"

Warzone, around 250k dps.

 

huh? Yes, I see this all the time.

 

Now I dont think Powertechs need to be nerfed I just think Mercs need to be adjusted up in PVP because I could go on forever how some PUB classes are OP. I just think thats the George Lucas agreement with Bioware, make sure the good guys win

 

Are you guys just not understanding?

 

A Pyrotech Powertech is NOT A TANK.

 

The way our AC's work is each one has two uses; a PT can be either Tank or a DPS. A Merc can be either a healer or a DPS.

 

Powertech does not necessarily=/=tank.

 

Now, that said Merc does indeed some love, for both of their intended uses.

 

In all honesty, what Merc needs is more survivability.

[KainrycKarr]

I would rather have a shield that helps marginally in PvP than an offhand weapon which actually HARMS you in PvP. Yes, the Merc offhand weapon actually HARMS him in PvP warzones currently. That's because increasingly the most common opponent you face are enemy melee toons. And the multi-attack resolution of Merc abilities coupled with the low accuracy of the offhand weapon virtually assures your opponent will get a free Retaliation/Riposte. Which cause more damage by a magnitude of MULTIPLES than your offhand weapon does. Merc dps is broken - often times you best strategy is simply not to fire. How the hell is that working?

 

I won't dispute the need for merc love, but shield in pvp is garbage, as it does not protect against force/tech based attacks.

[Macroecon]

I won't dispute the need for merc love, but shield in pvp is garbage, as it does not protect against force/tech based attacks.

 

But it is still better than an offhand weapon which HARMS you. No one has ever claimed that a shield is HARMING it's user. Are you?

[KainrycKarr]

But it is still better than an offhand weapon which HARMS you. No one has ever claimed that a shield is HARMING it's user. Are you?

 

No. Just stating its irrelevance in pvp, and that I agree that merc needs love.

[sly_swg]

Ya I don't PVE much I PVP. Thats the part of the game I want to play and be competitive. So what a Merc can do in an instance really does not matter to me or the balancing I am requesting for the class.

 

After all I joined a PVP server not a PVE server.

 

ever considered playing a game designed for pvp iso pvp'ing in a game designed for PVE?

[Nydar]

Everyone knows by now how the Power Tech out dps's Merc's. Power Tech's get all the utility, and a shield and still out dps Merc's even though Merc's are suppose to be the dps class of the bounty hunter.

 

Merc's also do not get any interrupts at all. There's an imbalance there, the only class in the game without an interrupt. Merc's can't for the most part even hold their own 1 vs 1 with any other class similarly geared.

 

But enough about that, I just want to see Merc's in the same ball park as Power Tech's. I would love to see Merc's atleast scaled up to the dps that Power Tech's can do.

 

Seems only right in my opinion. As far as the interrupt and the utility I am not hopeful BioWare will do any at all to balance those things out.

 

To tell you the truth I will be very amazed if BioWare does anything to balance Merc's with just the Power Tech's at all.

 

If a shield spec BH is out damaging you then you're god awful, If he's DPS spec he doesn't have a shield. He uses a generator. because the extra shielding chance isn't worth the other stats. Why shouldn't a powertech who specs the DPS TREE be able to effectively dps. What does it matter that they have a tank tree? It would be like me whining that a dps spec merc was out damaging me and he's a healer!!!!!

[Kelenan]

ever considered playing a game designed for pvp iso pvp'ing in a game designed for PVE?

 

Ya so then Why have PVP in the game at all based on your logic?

[Sookster]

But it is still better than an offhand weapon which HARMS you. No one has ever claimed that a shield is HARMING it's user. Are you?

 

In pvp, a generator is a better choice than a shield, it gives more tech damage and better stats towards dps.

 

My guild has a couple powertechs and they do insane damage and keeps up with our rakata/BH geared arsenal merc. My merc is pyro, it's somewhat different from powertech's pyro but it still does great damage and my favorite is fusion missile on targets below 30% health since it can hit like a train.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Sookster

[Diddley]

This argument is *********** stupid.

[Nydar]

Wow way to hijack the thread Carebears.

 

Im with you in PvP you would have thought by selecting the "DPS" tree/class in Merc you would be doing the highest DPS between the two.

 

Not the case.

 

Powertech Pyro "TANK"

Warzone, about 400k dps

 

Merc "DPS"

Warzone, around 250k dps.

 

huh? Yes, I see this all the time.

 

Now I dont think Powertechs need to be nerfed I just think Mercs need to be adjusted up in PVP because I could go on forever how some PUB classes are OP. I just think thats the George Lucas agreement with Bioware, make sure the good guys win

 

Why should you do more as a merc/commando? Your first tree is healing, so applying your logic why should a class with heals as its primary tree do more damage than a class who's primary tree is tanking, they're both dps secondary class trees. Mercs/commandos need some help, but the automatic assumption you should do more damage than a vanguard is silly. The fact is you can do all your damage from 30M, the price you pay for the range imho.

[Asavar]

Oh the irony of calling PvErs carebears

 

Doesn't gearing up in PvP require just pressing a button and queuing up- and you get rewarded no matter what? I didn't realize getting rewards for losing meant that area of the game was superior. Could've fooled me!

 

+1, made me chuckle.