Tank stat crunching help

[Lupious]

I'm getting ready to start buying black hole pieces just for the mods/enhancements and I have a couple different routes I can go (more shield, defense, or absorption). Here are my current stats without stim:

 

Defense chance 27.45% (390 points of defense from gear)

Shield Chance 43.94% (516 points of shield rating from gear)

Shield Absorption 42.51% (206 points of absorption from gear)

 

I have essentially 3 different options depending on which mods/enhancements I put in (pulling them out of the black hole helm, gloves, or chest):

 

Option 1

Lose 9 Endurance

Gain 16 Willpower

Gain 9 Shield Rating

Gain 23 Defense

 

Option 2

Gain 12 Endurance

Gain 4 Willpower

Gain 9 Shield Rating

Gain 6 Defense

 

Option 3

Lose 9 Endurance

Gain 16 Willpower

Gain 9 Shield

Gain 63 Absorption

Lose 48 Defense

 

I'm leaning towards option 3 because it seems like 63 absorption will be the biggest gain. Currently when I take off my chest, which is 63 absorption, I go from 42.51% to 37.73% (4.78% difference). Thus, if there isn't a diminishing return I would gain another 4.78% absorption putting me at 47.29%, up from 42.51% BUT I'm hesitant to lose 48 defense, though a 48 defense loss would take me from 27.45% to 26.32% (loss of 1.13%). Endurance really isn't an issues one way or the other because I'm a tad over 25,000 hp with stim, so gaining or losing a little bit isn't going to make a difference.

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 9, 2012 by Lupious

[Teuskou]

Take a look at this thread :

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Tanking-stat-spreadsheet-online

 

That guy has made a spreadsheet that will help you decide what stat you should raise first.

[novakheng]

You are sorely lacking in Defense. Go for Defense.

[Dhariq]

I know your question is regarding which of the 3 options you shoud choose. But to be honest you are as stated earlier way to low on defence and you should try take that from shield rating. Actually you should also move some of it to absorbtion as well. Edited May 10, 2012 by Dhariq

[Goldenstar]

You are sorely lacking in Defense. Go for Defense.

 

I'd be more likely to stack absorb. Shield caps at 50%, so getting anywhere about 30% shield chance is pointless since you get 15% from dark ward and another 5% from the 2 piece set bonus.

 

Basically shield chance is going to be your least important stat b/c of Dark Ward. Your defense is alright for now, but you're REALLY low on absorb. I'd ditch a bunch of your shield rating and stack some more absorb, then defense.

[Lonestrum]

I'd be more likely to stack absorb. Shield caps at 50%, so getting anywhere about 30% shield chance is pointless since you get 15% from dark ward and another 5% from the 2 piece set bonus.

 

Basically shield chance is going to be your least important stat b/c of Dark Ward. Your defense is alright for now, but you're REALLY low on absorb. I'd ditch a bunch of your shield rating and stack some more absorb, then defense.

 

shield chance doesnt cap at 50% there are no caps on any stats. just diminishing returns. Only Rateing such as this item has 306 shield rateing like a relic contruibute to diminishing returns. anything that adds % is not effected by diminishing returns. So if i have 45% shield chance with out DW up the % that i gain from DW is all gravy. Now relics with shield/absorb on them will lose value the more shield chance you have.

 

What i think you are confused about is diminishing returns. 50% with out dw up is deep into diminishing returns of shield rateing but thats not the cap. My goal is 30% defense 50% shield with out DW up and 60% absorb.

 

what i would do for the OP is Put shield/def enhancments in everything the 57sheild 22 defense then the 41 absorb in all the mods slots. then use your augment slots for defense augments.

 

I'm currently at 24k hp 7k armor 27% defense 45%(65% with darkward)shield chance and 55% absorbtion. Ive yet to start putting in the 41 absorb mods. this is all with out a stim.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Lonestrum

[Lonestrum]

You are sorely lacking in Defense. Go for Defense.

 

27% defense for an assassin tank is good he is not sorely lacking defense he is starting to hit DR of defense at that point.

 

at 340 defense 36defense just gives me under 1% defense but at 382 absorb rateing 29 absorb is giving me almost 3%. so as you can see absorb is going to be a better value for over all mitigation at the these rateings.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Lonestrum

[Lonestrum]

I know your question is regarding which of the 3 options you shoud choose. But to be honest you are as stated earlier way to low on defence and you should try take that from shield rating. Actually you should also move some of it to absorbtion as well.

 

you really cant take away from shield rateing unless he has sheild rateing augmetns every enhancment will either have shield/def sheild/absorb or acc/defense acc/absorb. So there his best bet is going to be the shield/def enhancments. and then using augment slots for defense.

[Lupious]

I actually got a piece of campaign gear that threw my stats way off. Now I'm sitting at:

26.63% defense

44.52% shield (64.52% with dark ward)

49.29% absorption

 

The problem is the returns on + def are so small compared to +abs or + shield (i.e. +10 abs gives way more abs then +10 def gives for defense). That and virtually all the campaign pieces are +abs/shield. Very little defense on it comparatively. It doesn't seem worth it to to give up like 5% abs to gain 1% def.

 

Real #'s: 18 abs augment gives me 1.02% absorption. 18 def augment gives me 0.43% defense chance.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Lupious

[Teuskou]

The problem is the returns on + def are so small compared to +abs or + shield (i.e. +10 abs gives way more abs then +10 def gives for defense).

 

It's not a problem : when your stats are optimaly distributed, you'll get roughly the same damage mitigation from 10 defense than you get from 10 shield or 10 absorption. Remember that 1% defense is 1% less weapon damage, but 1% shield is not, nor is 1% absorption. In fact, 25% defense gives you roughly the same damage mitigation as 50% shield + 50% absorption, so it's perfectly normal that the stat builds up more slowly.

[pure_laced]

It's not a problem : when your stats are optimaly distributed, you'll get roughly the same damage mitigation from 10 defense than you get from 10 shield or 10 absorption. Remember that 1% defense is 1% less weapon damage, but 1% shield is not, nor is 1% absorption. In fact, 25% defense gives you roughly the same damage mitigation as 50% shield + 50% absorption, so it's perfectly normal that the stat builds up more slowly.

 

Correct me if I am wrong here.

 

Defense is Avoidance, not Mitigation. Additionally, there are several attacks in the end game that cannot be avoided, so mitigation(shield/absorb) would be better off. Think Firebrand and Stormcaller. You cannot avoid any of Stormcaller's attacks, but you can mitigate them and this is where shield rating and absorb kick in. I believe Zorn is the same way, cannot be avoided, not totally 100% on that as I haven't really looked into deeply. Kephess, same thing.

 

If you think about it, it is kind of like WoW in that regard. You had specific tank types depending on the boss type, and encounter. Remember block tanks? Same concept here in a way. Powertechs/Sins are more like block tanks because Sins have Dark Ward that goes above static shield rating. Push the absorb rating up to DR levels and you should be gtg.

 

In theory of course. But I just leveled this toon, and while I have tanked end game NiM on my Guardian and PT, I have not on this toon yet.

[Cichard]

Correct me if I am wrong here.

 

Defense is Avoidance, not Mitigation. Additionally, there are several attacks in the end game that cannot be avoided, so mitigation(shield/absorb) would be better off. Think Firebrand and Stormcaller. You cannot avoid any of Stormcaller's attacks, but you can mitigate them and this is where shield rating and absorb kick in. I believe Zorn is the same way, cannot be avoided, not totally 100% on that as I haven't really looked into deeply. Kephess, same thing.

 

If you think about it, it is kind of like WoW in that regard. You had specific tank types depending on the boss type, and encounter. Remember block tanks? Same concept here in a way. Powertechs/Sins are more like block tanks because Sins have Dark Ward that goes above static shield rating. Push the absorb rating up to DR levels and you should be gtg.

 

In theory of course. But I just leveled this toon, and while I have tanked end game NiM on my Guardian and PT, I have not on this toon yet.

 

acutally this is wrong you can defend attacks on both of these bosses. And defense chance avoidance mitigation its the samething you are mitigating damage by avoiding it. But when it comes to these bosses i defend all the time. Kephess is a Melee boss so you can most defenitly defend against his attacks lol. The way it works is you cant defend Force/tech attacks. So unless a specific skill is a tech skill you can defend against it. So like Firebrands Debuff you cant defend it aka have a chance for it to miss, because its a tech attack but how every his main attacks can be.

 

the game works on a 2 roll system first it checks to see if you defened 2nd roll if you dont defend checks to see if you shield. So a high defense is nice but you dont want to suffer absorb to have a high defense. Because if you dont defend and you do shield you still take a big hit because you have no absorb rateing. Thats where stat balancing comes in.

[pure_laced]

acutally this is wrong you can defend attacks on both of these bosses. And defense chance avoidance mitigation its the samething you are mitigating damage by avoiding it. But when it comes to these bosses i defend all the time. Kephess is a Melee boss so you can most defenitly defend against his attacks lol. The way it works is you cant defend Force/tech attacks. So unless a specific skill is a tech skill you can defend against it. So like Firebrands Debuff you cant defend it aka have a chance for it to miss, because its a tech attack but how every his main attacks can be.

 

the game works on a 2 roll system first it checks to see if you defened 2nd roll if you dont defend checks to see if you shield. So a high defense is nice but you dont want to suffer absorb to have a high defense. Because if you dont defend and you do shield you still take a big hit because you have no absorb rateing. Thats where stat balancing comes in.

 

No it is not.

 

Let's define them both shall we.

 

Mitigation is defined as: 1. The act of mitigating, or lessening the force or intensity of something unpleasant, as wrath, pain, grief, or extreme circumstances. AKA Shield/Absorb.

 

Avoidance is defined as: 1. The act of avoiding or keeping away from. AKA Defense.

 

Do not confuse the two, or lump them together. Any real raider knows the difference and this goes back to original EQ days about avoid/mitigation. Now that we have that established, let's go back to my original statement.

 

You cannot avoid any of Stormcaller's attacks, but you can mitigate them and this is where shield rating and absorb kick in.

Stormcaller is all Tech attacks. They cannot be avoided, as per this log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=5,b=2

 

Zorn is all Force attacks, including Flurry. Also cannot be avoided. As evidenced here: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=30,b=2

 

I would show some of Kephess' attacks but I didn't upload the log when we killed him, and don't feel like going through logs specifically that I saved to find it.

 

Now ask your healers, which is better: Spike damage that is high in bursts (High defense, low shield/absorb), or More constant even damage with short spikes (Decent defense, higher shield/absorb). They will always choose the latter. While my Sin just hit 50, I am fairly confident a 25% Defense with a 50/50 Shield absorb will far outperform and be easier to heal than a 30% Defense 30/30 split. Rough numbers and not accurate, but you get the drift.

[Lupious]

No it is not.

 

Let's define them both shall we.

 

Mitigation is defined as: 1. The act of mitigating, or lessening the force or intensity of something unpleasant, as wrath, pain, grief, or extreme circumstances. AKA Shield/Absorb.

 

Avoidance is defined as: 1. The act of avoiding or keeping away from. AKA Defense.

 

Do not confuse the two, or lump them together. Any real raider knows the difference and this goes back to original EQ days about avoid/mitigation. Now that we have that established, let's go back to my original statement.

 

 

Stormcaller is all Tech attacks. They cannot be avoided, as per this log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=5,b=2

 

Zorn is all Force attacks, including Flurry. Also cannot be avoided. As evidenced here: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=30,b=2

 

I would show some of Kephess' attacks but I didn't upload the log when we killed him, and don't feel like going through logs specifically that I saved to find it.

 

Now ask your healers, which is better: Spike damage that is high in bursts (High defense, low shield/absorb), or More constant even damage with short spikes (Decent defense, higher shield/absorb). They will always choose the latter. While my Sin just hit 50, I am fairly confident a 25% Defense with a 50/50 Shield absorb will far outperform and be easier to heal than a 30% Defense 30/30 split. Rough numbers and not accurate, but you get the drift.

 

This is correct. I've noticed it too on most of the bosses in Denova, though it seems to apply to shielding to an extent too. As a sin, it's easy for me to tell how often I'm shielding attacks because I can see my dark ward counters going down. On bosses like Sorno/Jarg in KP, my dark ward charges drop really fast (i.e. I'm shielding a lot), whereas on Denova bosses, my dark ward usually times out before using all 8 charges and I have roughly a 64% chance to shield with dark ward up.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Lupious

[xJACKTHERIPPERx]

Rather than start a new thread, I'm just gonna piggy back onto this one. Right now I'm sitting at

Defense Chance: 24.86% (284 def rating)

Shield Chance: 57.82% with Dark Ward 2 pc bonus (349 shield rating)

Shield Absorption: 43.69% (223 absorb rating)

1953 endurance

1262 willpower

To try bringing my absorb up to par with the others I've been putting absorb augs into a few pieces of gear. Would I be better off continuing to do that, or should I try raising other stats instead?

[Cichard]

No it is not.

 

Let's define them both shall we.

 

Mitigation is defined as: 1. The act of mitigating, or lessening the force or intensity of something unpleasant, as wrath, pain, grief, or extreme circumstances. AKA Shield/Absorb.

 

Avoidance is defined as: 1. The act of avoiding or keeping away from. AKA Defense.

 

Do not confuse the two, or lump them together. Any real raider knows the difference and this goes back to original EQ days about avoid/mitigation. Now that we have that established, let's go back to my original statement.

 

 

Stormcaller is all Tech attacks. They cannot be avoided, as per this log: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=5,b=2

 

Zorn is all Force attacks, including Flurry. Also cannot be avoided. As evidenced here: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/f71c146c-9fbb-4f22-a968-bf73a5fb260a#d=2,t=30,b=2

 

I would show some of Kephess' attacks but I didn't upload the log when we killed him, and don't feel like going through logs specifically that I saved to find it.

 

Now ask your healers, which is better: Spike damage that is high in bursts (High defense, low shield/absorb), or More constant even damage with short spikes (Decent defense, higher shield/absorb). They will always choose the latter. While my Sin just hit 50, I am fairly confident a 25% Defense with a 50/50 Shield absorb will far outperform and be easier to heal than a 30% Defense 30/30 split. Rough numbers and not accurate, but you get the drift.

 

yes i agree that the definition to avoidance and mitigation are different. but the both do the same thing. They both lower the amount of damage you take. Thats what i was getting at. so both are important to have in balance.

 

I'm at a 28% defense with stim and 65% shield chance with darkward up and 55% absorb.

Im an advocate of having all 3 stats in balance not trying to push one or the other to deep into Diminishing returns.

 

But i know for a fact with Kephess that you defend his melee attacks. so by your logs you are saying that stormcaller is all tech attacks well that would mean that Defense chance and shield chance would mean nothing then. Might as well have a dps with high hp tanking him. If your statement is true i point you to this statement

 

"Melee and Ranged attacks are Defensible and Shieldable, whereas Force and Tech attacks are not. This is consistent with other games such as WoW and RIFT, where “spell” attacks are not dodgeable / parryable and not blockable"

 

So with that understanding then nothing is mitigating the damage coming in other then armor, and depending if the tech attack is Elemental/Internal or kinetic/energy. If its elemenatal/Internal damage then nothing is mitigating the incoming damage from that boss.

[Cichard]

Rather than start a new thread, I'm just gonna piggy back onto this one. Right now I'm sitting at

Defense Chance: 24.86% (284 def rating)

Shield Chance: 57.82% with Dark Ward 2 pc bonus (349 shield rating)

Shield Absorption: 43.69% (223 absorb rating)

1953 endurance

1262 willpower

To try bringing my absorb up to par with the others I've been putting absorb augs into a few pieces of gear. Would I be better off continuing to do that, or should I try raising other stats instead?

 

what i would work for if i was you, would be Shield/def enhancments in every piece of gear then putting absorb mods in. then using what ever augment slots you get for defense. I currently have Ear/implantsx2 belt,bracers Helm,Chest Pants Weapon Relicsx2 with augment slots. I'm using the black hole ear and implants so its got enough shield absorb there. im starting to use the 41 absorb mods in my gear now from black hole boots.