I will be leaving the game but I will keep the program om my skydrive (I can spare 142 kb ) I'm to tired and have noticed that I am not even interested in the numbers or discussing how mechanics are flawed and should be changed etc so I am out. All the stupid mathematically impossible equations such as self heal, barriers etc kinda broke my spirit. I will let the senior designers talk survivability targets (when they build classes that are not even balanced betwen 8 and 16 man) in peace now, and let them continue to do itemizations that they themself said was stupid and bad when talking about Rakata without me picking on them. Mainly because I do not care anymore since they do not move an inch forward as I see it. Not a big loss though I suppose since I have not been contributing with anything real for awile anyway because of caring to little anymore. When you stop being constructive and just whine it is time to move on. So I'll do that. To bad since I really liked the foundation of the game and so wanted to like it.

As I said one can ofc debate that part but it does not change that assassin does not have the highest effective health which you tried make people belive. Not even when adding reactive self healing to it which I never ever even heard of anyone doing ever.

I do not think they will ever push hard on gear though. Sure it is fun to debate things but tbh the only thing you need in this game is check if you can be two shot, if not then either stack mitigation so the healers can take a nap while raiding, or stack endurance and make newbies think your awesome. Edit: I realized that one time that it do make a differense is when you want to carry/gear up some new healer since then you ofc need to be on top of the game. In those cases it is awesome to be an optimal mitigation tank and not just a cool looking "mana sponge".

You sound like the average religious person here. God listens, I know it because, well... he does. But yes other games have reacted to feedback that is true. This game is not other games unfortunatly. But lets hope your faith is not missplaced and that I am just a cynic that is dead wrong. Amen.

Do not check it as it will make you feel bad. The difference in incomming damage in like a kephess fight will make you cringe in how badly you mitigate compared to a 25k hp "mitigation Sin". Why it becomes alot worse than you think is because of the simple fact that you do not start at 0 but at 3/4. So 1% mitigation loss for example will become something close to 4% more damage taken.

Well I think you are missing the point though. I am in no way debating how relevant or not something is here. I am just stating that the effective health of an assassin is the lowest of all the tanks. Sure one can debate if that matter or not but it does not make it less true. This class got a bigger med pack arguments is kinda moot here since you cannot use that when dead because you straight out mitigated to little because of really bad luck. But sure you can work around stuff and learn what to do and when to do it etc. I am not arguing about that at all. I just simply do not agree that you can add healing to effective health, and in one post you even say that assassin have the highest effective health which is even with healing added completely wrong.

Well just punch in you stats into the program in my signature press calculate and you will be set.

YOU ARE WRONG! No seriously though, the only thing that would be wrong would be if you said that the hp gain would give you higher overall mitigation. The break point for that is way way lower than any raid content. Thanks.

Well I read that they agreed to that Rakata was badly itemized. This was changed for Campaign. Now a "senior" designer state facts which they already smacked themself as something bad. So has the mechanics of the game changed? No. So he is a senior designer who is clueless and wrong both according to Bioware and just about everyone here. So yes I base it on the first statement beeing correct. Also I have never seen them care anymore about cases with math. I have never ever even seem them reply to them in anyway or discussed them. Oh, sorry I saw one thread once when one guy were stating some crap that were not correct. So I do not understand how you can type something like "substantially more likely" and try to push it like a fact. It is an oppinion based on nothing more than that you seriously hope that this should be the case as it should be because what they are doing is just horrible. 20 guys screaming OP NERF without anything but a screenshot of a wz summary in the pvp forum are alot more likely to get some knee jerk out of this company than some brilliant facts will ever do. Not unique for BW but still worthless. This is what I would post as facts since they are based on empirical evidence not on how the world should work.

Sorry for being rude in my reply. I think the self heal mechanic is so incredibly stupid that even talking about it pisses me off, nothing personal KeyboardNinja, but again sorry for that. I do not like that they built a system that gives me OP mitigation in content I do not give a s&%t about. Yes I am totally, utterly op in a h4 or flashpoint as a Sin. You add a reactive self heal that you need to channel to EH?! Ehrm... you are way off as I see it. Then you are back to calculating mean mitigation and how much heal someone needs to stay up during a fight. The whole point of eh is to calculate worst possible scenario. You assume that you will have 3 stacks hd, standing and channel your self heal and not be knocked back or needing to move during the time the worst possible thing happens? Also the heal does not mitigate in itself it will only repair retroactivly the damage. So yes a Sin is around the same ballpark if one could heal the already dead is what I read into what you say.

Not having any specifics here but I will give it a shot... For your budget you are WAY to high in defense. You should have something like 4% lower with that budget and that should be switch directly for absorbtion. I would suggest that you get 2 pvp relics with defense. Then you stack absorb mods and not defense ones. Then balance it all with augments. You want to land around the same defense you have (perhaps a tad lower), with an absorb increase of atleast 10% and a percent or two extra shield. This will be possible even with the battlemaster version of the imperiling serenity relic.

Did you read the official reply by the way? They clearly state the reason and well...

Funny joke. Made me smile anyway.

Good and interesting thread. I felt like chipping in but when thinking about it, it just made me tired. Thanks guys for showing with some math what everyone with a clue knows by heart. The only problems I see with it is: a) how can Bioware have senior developers who does not understand their own game to begin with? b) given that they do not understand; they have never, ever acted on constructive math heavy explanations, ever. I fear all this will just fly over their head unfortunately.

Yeah I have been advocating something like this for all tank trees but the chances of them doing anything useful is kinda low. Also when they bother to comment or care about something it is always the easy stuff. They seem to be pretty clueless and I bet they do not dare to touch much since most guys who built this have been fired. Like the blade barrier... I mean how bad is that mechanic?! Thanks we got an ability that is basically as bad as the assassin self healing in that it is close to a set number so it does not scale like armor, defense, shield etc. So not 8 man we are going 16 man... yeah no worry but my mitigation is lower in 16 man. Ehrm... GJ Bioware. Please do not make the shield give us a percent reduction in damage because then we would scale perfectly across all content...

I would also say that for leveling guardian is a little painful to tank with. But in all honesty if you level together with another player it will be a breeze no matter what you select. I actually did exactly this on imp side with my juggernaut tanking and a pt dps and we did every heroic without to much hazzle. For endgame I would say that the guardian lacks slightly when it comes to aggro but well this game is kinda build on you taunting for aggro generation anyway so they are fine. Just a little envy against the other two classes who can get away with not doing it all the time I suppose.

Heh, wishful thinking. Look the the official reply... they are simply clueless about the mechanics of the game again. Which is so funny after how they agreed to that Rakata were bad and that they would sharpen up. They did, which became Campaign. I suppose they fired the guy who knew how the game works that helped out on that set. But it could have been what you said... but to give them the benefit of a doubt has proven to be wrong most times and yet again it was. I did not check your calculations. I just did my own and compared with your conclusion and it is spot on anyway no matter what.

I was joking! Sin are not that bad tanks. Just spikey and they have the lowest eh of all tanks, but still the mitigation is on par or slightly better depending on what the incomming dps is. But true often a spikey and low eh tank is seen as something bad in these kinds of games. But still, I was joking.

You are welcome.

Unfortunatly this is true. Move away from the tanking tree to be able to be more in the way and... ehrm tank. BW in all its glory and wisdom.

Yeah Bioware seems to just randomly and cluelessly do and change stuff. *sigh* So this is needed... why? How about rework of the abysmal and mathematically completely failed design that is self healing instead of pointless stuff like this? Probably because that would involve require math skills to make it scale across content.

Yeah I posted some stuff about how booring this is as well before. Not that I noticed any new change however. As I said before I think ALL tank trees should have some abilities to mitigate this deep in the tank tree. It would be very much in line with the tank role.

I was personally hoping for some more aggro on my full tank spec Juggernaut since it is inferior to my Sin by a large margin, but well not this time it seems. Cutting Backhand cd in half and making Crushing Blow always affect 2 extra targets would probably solve it and give us the added "snap" aoe aggro that I have on the Sin with Wither + Discharge. I suppose not many really miss Crushing Blow when they spec hybrid and that fact alone should be enough to prove that the top Immortal ability is far from impressive.

Yes it can be. I mostly find it weird though to link successful resist, shielding and stuff; which only works against weapons, to your resistance against force and tech which you cannot avoid in the first place. *shrug* But sure, yippiiee...

True, bioware tied an almost set healing together with % mitigation and it can never work. The other end of this: Assassins mitigation in percent becomes lower and lower when incomming dps become higher. This design can never ever work across the board and it will mean that people like you point at a flashpoint, pvp duel or h4 and says "they are so op/awesome". Mitigation for a powertech is percent of incomming damage and that scales perfectly. Reduce damage with a flat number will only ever be balanced at one point of the incomming damage scale. Moving against any other end will either mean op or inferior. That is the design. Period. "Tuning" that number as BW did is pure rubbish. Fix the underlaying mathematical flaw instead. Completely and utterly wrong unless you invented you own special meaning of this. A PT will slap a Sin by atleast 5% when calculating this. Even my Jugg who does not have a +3% health talent beats my Sin. This also make it so that a SIn will need to stack more health to avoid being two shot and in effect he will have to sacrifice mitigation. But Juggernaut also suffer slightly from this because of their lack of health boosting talent. As I said you do not need more healing you are just spiky and the design cannot work with any higher damage unless they make it even more op in lower damage scenarios. You will for example take more damage in 8 man than in 16 man doing the exact same content which is a completely horrible design. Get out of the flashpoints. The "anecdotal evidence" is rubbish since noone with a clue object to the fact that the set self healing does not work at all and in low damage environment it is blatantly op still. My SIn takes almost half the damage a PT tank does when doing a h4. Try 100 * (hps/incomming damage) and you should see the problem. Regarding composition I would say that Sin tanks could benifit more from some healers than other. The damage profile suits operatives way of healing better than for example a sorc's. Ps I would still like that all tanking trees had some knockback, knockdown etc resistance high up in the tree to feel more like tanks and less as ragdolls. I mean walking into battle of illum is a simply horrible experience even as a full campaign tank.