WZs is shield tech help a team more than Pyro?

[wraithaur]

Firstly

its not your damage that wins a game. Its achieving objectives, keeping team members alive and being a real pain in the a55 to your opposing team.

 

Getting top damage in a WZ doesn't mean anything if you smashed away on a guy who was being healed the whole time and your effective damage was really low. The damage stat is miss leading, it includes aoe damage etc.

 

Second

The heading is "is shield tech help a team more than pyro" (phrasing aside). Pyro can guard, at a massive cost of damage changing gas cylinders. ST can seemless guard and output damage (even though its less),

ST Jet Pack is great for getting in peoples faces peeling them off your healer. Stun on Grapple is super handy.

Being able to survive longer means you can tie up more players from their team for longer which gives your team the advantage.

 

As a Pyro you do lots of damage and perhaps you can peel by using flame burst to slow people (do people do that or just go for personal glory.)

 

The thing that makes ST good as a team member is that you are not going to pull massive numbers, so you focus on being as helpful as possible to your team. As Pyro it tends to be more kill kill kill ZOMG crit, kill kill. Good damage is helpful when applied well, but if you don't have tanks sacrificing themselves for the good of the team then no one does it.

[lorneagle]

My PT was leveled exclusively in PvP since he hit level 30 and I got Jet Charge. I tried a lot of Specs while being < 50 and when I hit 50 including the Iron Fist, Full Pyro, Full ST and some Hybrids.

 

First I want to say that the most viable PvP specs seem to be the Ironfist or full Pyro. (I am about to try out some AP builds tho)

 

Pyro:

When I hit 40 I respecced to Pyro and man, it's been fun. The damage you are able to deal is amazing. The all-instant-in-your-face play style is fun especially when you melt your enemies away. But after a couple of days I got tired of it. All you do is run in, hit the same damage rotation every time (which is fortunately not as boring as Arsenal Mercs used to be) , die or overheat at some point and repeat the process. The Pyro has no fun moves, the most difficult decision you make is....well none.

 

That being said: If you play against a good premade with 2 healers and a tank guarding them you will quickly learn how useless a DD can be unless you have a couple of DD friends who assist you.

 

 

Tank role (Ironfist):

You are the star of Huttball. The utility you bring to the table can't be matched by most classes. With Grapple(+Root), Jet Charge, 2 Stuns and a slow you are not only one of the most resourceful defenders but you can pull off some of the most awesome stunts and score points that make your enemy's jaw drop.

 

You have infinite mobility with Jet Charge which not only allows you to jump into fights but also to jump back out. And although you don't have that ridiculous Juggernaught bubble you'll be able to stand your ground just fine. With Shield, Oil Slick and Carbonize off CD I held a couple Voidstar gates against 5+ just these few seconds that were needed for my allies to respawn.

 

In the end it depends on your team composition. I played as Tank in teams where we were clearly missing dmg but I played just as often in teams where I was the first to be zerged as pyro because we had no tanks.

 

But I think tank requires way more skill ( to be played well) then DD and rewards you more.

 

As a damage dealer you are not recognized by the team more than the average sniper. But if you are the guy who pulled the enemy ball carrier out of their zerg into the firepit get the ball and jet charge to the next respawning player just to score a point within 5 seconds from when the enemy team thought they had secured the ball. ...or you Jet Charge the first guy to leave the Voidstar spawn and carbonize the entire team dropping down behind him to secure a tap, you can be sure to be the MvP!

Edited May 10, 2012 by lorneagle

[dardack]

Is this the type of spec you run http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#3010MZMsrrobfkdsZfh.1 ? That one does look a bit interesting and possibly fun. I assume you also go with CGC opposed to HEGC?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhMZMsMMRrfkds.1

 

That's what I run as AP. Pyro right now (yes will have to change sig too lazy) cause burst is better in pvp.

[dardack]

Firstly

its not your damage that wins a game. Its achieving objectives, keeping team members alive and being a real pain in the a55 to your opposing team.

 

If your putting out 500k-800k and blowing people up, your doing more for your team then a tank. Trust me I get focus'd right away by most teams because of what I bring. And I do objectives when I'm AP i'm lucky if I break 50k Damage done since I ball carry with HO a ton.

 

Getting top damage in a WZ doesn't mean anything if you smashed away on a guy who was being healed the whole time and your effective damage was really low. The damage stat is miss leading, it includes aoe damage etc.

 

It's really not that misleading when your hitting 500-800k. It means you blew people up. No healer can heal through that. Again as I've stated before, until rated healers are broke (and only reason healers in rated won't be broken is because full 8 group in vent for coordination) and would rather run 8 competent DPS that know how to focus then any other comp.

 

Second

The heading is "is shield tech help a team more than pyro" (phrasing aside). Pyro can guard, at a massive cost of damage changing gas cylinders. ST can seemless guard and output damage (even though its less),

ST Jet Pack is great for getting in peoples faces peeling them off your healer. Stun on Grapple is super handy.

Being able to survive longer means you can tie up more players from their team for longer which gives your team the advantage.

 

ST can't come anywhere near the damage output of Pyro. The way I guard my healer is blow up the DPS hitting them. Me and a healer in a WZ last night took on 4 dudes at a node. Blew em all up. Shield with 3 seconds and shield rebounder. Him sprinting around LoS kiting. Taunts on people attacking him. No tank/healer combo could do that.

 

As a Pyro you do lots of damage and perhaps you can peel by using flame burst to slow people (do people do that or just go for personal glory.)

 

The thing that makes ST good as a team member is that you are not going to pull massive numbers, so you focus on being as helpful as possible to your team. As Pyro it tends to be more kill kill kill ZOMG crit, kill kill. Good damage is helpful when applied well, but if you don't have tanks sacrificing themselves for the good of the team then no one does it.

 

You can peel with taunts/cc's/grapple/flame burst and Yes I take care of the healers I run with even tho I think they are broken.

 

And tanks are useless in PvP except as I've stated tankasins because of how their tree is designed. You hit like a wet noodle, you die like a clothy, and if your guarding a healer I just wail on healer reducing your HP at same time stunning/int'ing his heals until your both dead. Do it all the time.

[dardack]

That being said: If you play against a good premade with 2 healers and a tank guarding them you will quickly learn how useless a DD can be unless you have a couple of DD friends who assist you.

 

 

Tank role (Ironfist):

You are the star of Huttball. The utility you bring to the table can't be matched by most classes. With Grapple(+Root), Jet Charge, 2 Stuns and a slow you are not only one of the most resourceful defenders but you can pull off some of the most awesome stunts and score points that make your enemy's jaw drop.

 

You have infinite mobility with Jet Charge which not only allows you to jump into fights but also to jump back out. And although you don't have that ridiculous Juggernaught bubble you'll be able to stand your ground just fine. With Shield, Oil Slick and Carbonize off CD I held a couple Voidstar gates against 5+ just these few seconds that were needed for my allies to respawn.

 

In the end it depends on your team composition. I played as Tank in teams where we were clearly missing dmg but I played just as often in teams where I was the first to be zerged as pyro because we had no tanks.

 

But I think tank requires way more skill ( to be played well) then DD and rewards you more.

 

As a damage dealer you are not recognized by the team more than the average sniper. But if you are the guy who pulled the enemy ball carrier out of their zerg into the firepit get the ball and jet charge to the next respawning player just to score a point within 5 seconds from when the enemy team thought they had secured the ball. ...or you Jet Charge the first guy to leave the Voidstar spawn and carbonize the entire team dropping down behind him to secure a tap, you can be sure to be the MvP!

 

First sure 2 healers 1 tank against 1 pyro, um that's 3v1 with 2 heals. That's going to be hard to pull off. But 2 pyro's against that say even 4 with 2 tanks 2 healers. The 2 pyro's will win.

 

Your basically saying the spec is AMAZING for 1 single WZ. As the change you won't get HB 99% of the time. So why would you gimp yourself in 3/4 of the warzones.

 

I get tons of MVP votes with 500-800k done cause people recognize that blowing people up and keeping them dead wins the games. And I can still carbonize the whole team since they drop off the ledge pretty much all at the same time. Still Carb is at most 2.5 seconds, rather have an agents stun or Jugg's stun that is much longer.

 

I've pulled off some amazing scores in AP. HO is amazing for HB. But I started AP pre 1.2 when all we got in WZ's was HB. I would have opposite teams mark me and have 2 people just to harras me because I could solo win a game as AP (have pre 1.2 zoned into multiple HB matched my team down 4-0 5-1 3-0 and won the game for my team). Since 1.2 and not getting HB AP is a tad gimped.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I love AP and it's amazing as substained DPS, but I'm leaning towards the mentatlity that burst>substained in PvP and that's what Pyro is.

 

Tanks are almost useless in WZ's outside HB. My friend used to be Jugg tank because of HB, now he's gone DPS jugg just because tanks useless for other maps.

[lorneagle]

First sure 2 healers 1 tank against 1 pyro, um that's 3v1 with 2 heals. That's going to be hard to pull off. But 2 pyro's against that say even 4 with 2 tanks 2 healers. The 2 pyro's will win.

Maybe but not in the warzones I currently play.

 

Anyway like I said I personally haven't played AP (maybe 2-3 WZs) but I find Pyro playstyle too boring.

I spec Pyro from time to time for a few days and then I respecc to ST because IF one of those Huttballs that I love so much pops up: I have no fun at all playing it as pyro.

 

But in the end your contribution probably depends more on team setup and your ability to play the role you decided to play rather than your spec.

[Ossos]

Dead enemies don't DPS, they don't slow the ball carrier, interrupt node captures, kill healers, CC other DPS, etc. The only thing Shield Techs do is soak damage. They are a meat shield at best they get interrupts off or a CC here and there, but can be blown down at speed because their Shield is nothing more than an apathetic door man (it lets just about everyone in).

 

Shield is great for Huttball, but lets be honest, it's only because you can leap up to attackers running to the pit. This usually results in a Huttball score if you're the ball carrier; but who cares. It doesn't happen every game, and not every WZ is Huttball.

 

DPS is the way to go, period. Let me give you an example. I was in a HB while playing my sniper. I saw an enemy attacking a teammate who was at 25% HP. Before the enemy player could take down that teammate, I bursted them down 100% to dead (Had I been on my PT the result would have been the same I GOT DEEPS!!). Had I been on my Powertech as a Shield Spec, I may have been able to buy them a few seconds with a stun/taunt/guard. Either way, they wouldn't have survived.

 

DPS wins everytime because dead players don't do damage, heal, guard, nor interrupt.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ossos

[Sookster]

Shieldtech is a big help in many ways, guard+taunt, grapple runners or marked targets into our group and jet charge healers and whatnot. My ST is in dps gear, no tank gear and I do a decent amount of damage (350K+ dmg/200K protection in 50 bracket) and I do enough to annoy players that they want to chase me around the map and kill me over and over which does help my team because that's one less player (or more than one) to fight. I go with a generator over a shield in pvp despite having flame shield that refreshes rocket punch upon shield (and vents 8 heat upon shield) since it rarely occurs and a generator lets you do more damage.

 

More often than not, I'm a freaking magnet to sentinal/marauders for some reason and most of them force charge me as an opener, this lets me use jet charge to another enemy 30m away to get away from the ravage spamming sentina/marauder with undying rage popped.

 

As pyro, you have to dpsdpsdpsdps if you're in trouble, ST has tools to deal with situations you're in trouble with.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sookster

[mjohnsonfhk]

i love it when people say, "ya they are good in huttball" assuming that tanks arent good at any of the other maps.

 

at the end of the match we all look at damage numbers and heals and thats how we vote our mvps. blah blah blah

 

tanks are great on every map. being able to leave a node guarded by one beastly tank instead of 2 dps frees up another player to roam. PVP isnt all about dps. There is some strategy on these maps... as simple as they are

[lorneagle]

Tanks well played are basically interupt specialists. What most people here forget is that Jet Charge has an interupt INCLUDING a 3 sec root which is NOT affected by the enemies resolve state.

 

I am sorry but the argument a dead player can't do DPS is seen very one sided here. Because a lot of times without proper healing and a TANK who jumps in and agros the masses you will be face down eating dust before you are done with your first damage rotation as a pyro. Meaning: You will be that dead guy who isn't doing any DPS.

 

So saying tanks are useless is just not true.

[Ossos]

This:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

Shield Tech is the most A-$$ kicking-est one-legged man at a one-legged A-$$ kicking contest.

 

Unfortunately, everyone else has two legs....and Force and Tech attacks, and crits.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ossos

[Agooz]

 

That being said: If you play against a good premade with 2 healers and a tank guarding them you will quickly learn how useless a DD can be unless you have a couple of DD friends who assist you.

 

 

Hate to break it to you, but in a premade with 2 healers, anyone can look like a star. Give me 2 healers in my pocket, as a pyro, and we will take/defend any objective. Sure in Huttball as a tank you will look great as a ball carrier, but that's the only WZ where you can actually see the merit of this combination. Even then, alot of people dont realize that in a good game of HB, controlling the center is vital, and you cant do it without good dps.

 

In every other WZ, offensive tactics are more important, because you need offense in order to get the objective in the first place. You first need to blow people up, mainly healers, in order to cap a turret, plant a bomb, etc... 2 healers + a tank wont cut it. You might not die, and certainly 2 healers together are a pain, you might even get kills, but the pace at which your kills will come will be extremely slow, that you will NEVER get a chance to cap/plant/complete an objective. You NEED dps, to give you those extra seconds between spawns to successfully take an objective.

[Agooz]

i love it when people say, "ya they are good in huttball" assuming that tanks arent good at any of the other maps.

 

at the end of the match we all look at damage numbers and heals and thats how we vote our mvps. blah blah blah

 

tanks are great on every map. being able to leave a node guarded by one beastly tank instead of 2 dps frees up another player to roam. PVP isnt all about dps. There is some strategy on these maps... as simple as they are

 

As a Pyro, I often go take an objective vs 2 and quite a few times vs 3 and succeed. A PT tank will NEVER be able to do that. With my current setup, all else being equal (including skill), I can hold/defend an object better than a tank. A tank is better at MITIGATION not SURVIVABILITY. There is a big difference between the two, that people often confuse. If 2 dps focus a tank, he will still go down like a sack of potatoes. All his mitigation/defenses did is probably bought him an extra 3-4seconds.

 

When I enter a WZ, my concern is NEVER how many tanks the other team has. It's always, how many healers they have.

[dardack]

i love it when people say, "ya they are good in huttball" assuming that tanks arent good at any of the other maps.

 

at the end of the match we all look at damage numbers and heals and thats how we vote our mvps. blah blah blah

 

tanks are great on every map. being able to leave a node guarded by one beastly tank instead of 2 dps frees up another player to roam. PVP isnt all about dps. There is some strategy on these maps... as simple as they are

 

Please leave 1 tank to guard a node. I'll blow him up so fast and cap that node solo. Your right pvp isn't all about dps, but the way tanks/healers work right now in pvp give me dps or 6dps 2 healers. Maybe 6 dps 1 heal 1 tank

 

but tanks useless.

[Noollig]

Are you guys talking about a dude in purely defensive gear? Do people actually do that?

 

With DPS gear I can still get back to back crit rocket punches that are hitting for 3k+ each and 2k+ flame burst crits. I end warzones with nearly as much damage as pyros, probably because they just get focused by the enemy dps. Maybe we need pyros like Dardack, Exphryl, and Agooz on my server because I'm not seeing the unrivaled awesomeness.

[Noollig]

As far as which would help a team more, well.... I wouldn't want a team with nothing but ST or pyro specs.

 

If your team has no tanks, I think ST would help more. If your team has more than one tank, then pyro would help more.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Noollig

[Delease]

Shield techs are...the off tanks, If there happens to be no Jug or tankassin in the group, you are looking to get the ball.

In PVE they may do well but in PVP, they are kinda at a disadvantage, would be better off running a DPS build instead.

[dardack]

As far as which would help a team more, well.... I wouldn't want a team with nothing but ST or pyro specs.

 

If your team has no tanks, I think ST would help more. If your team has more than one tank, then pyro would help more.

 

Really? Right now I'd take 8 Pyro PT's. Imagine the burst going on there. *drool*

[dardack]

Are you guys talking about a dude in purely defensive gear? Do people actually do that?

 

With DPS gear I can still get back to back crit rocket punches that are hitting for 3k+ each and 2k+ flame burst crits. I end warzones with nearly as much damage as pyros, probably because they just get focused by the enemy dps. Maybe we need pyros like Dardack, Exphryl, and Agooz on my server because I'm not seeing the unrivaled awesomeness.

 

I'm not even the best on my server. I get 500-700k I know 2 guys consitently in the 650-800k range.

[Agooz]

Are you guys talking about a dude in purely defensive gear? Do people actually do that?

 

With DPS gear I can still get back to back crit rocket punches that are hitting for 3k+ each and 2k+ flame burst crits. I end warzones with nearly as much damage as pyros, probably because they just get focused by the enemy dps. Maybe we need pyros like Dardack, Exphryl, and Agooz on my server because I'm not seeing the unrivaled awesomeness.

 

Just because I am quite vocal on the forum, in no way does this make me awesome as a Pyro or even as a player lol. But I am pretty sure this was more of sarcasm than a compliment

 

In any case, while I wont say you are lying about your damage, but a back to back Rocket Punch is probably 10x harder to get than a back to back RS. But even if you just want to compare the damage when all the moons align, that's 10k of damage in 4 GCD (2 crit RP + 2 Crit FB), compared to 14-16k in 4GCD a pyro can do (TD, 2xRS, FB). While both examples are on the extreme side, it actually happens way more often for a Pyro than an ST.

 

If ST in full dps gear is trailing behind a pyro by only 10%-20%, I along with many other Pyros would be switching right away. But the reality is Pyros do at least 40-50% more damage than an ST.

[mjohnsonfhk]

I'm not even the best on my server. I get 500-700k I know 2 guys consitently in the 650-800k range.

 

and how many kills ? Seems awefully high. Usually a sign there isnt enough burst and healers are just healing through it

[Noollig]

But even if you just want to compare the damage when all the moons align, that's 10k of damage in 4 GCD (2 crit RP + 2 Crit FB), compared to 14-16k in 4GCD a pyro can do (TD, 2xRS, FB). While both examples are on the extreme side, it actually happens way more often for a Pyro than an ST.

 

I really was complimenting you guys, you're knowledgeable and willing to share tactics. I just prefer the ST over the pyro build for pugs. My rocket punch resets are quite common when not fighting sorcerers. I haven't met a pyro that can crit me for over 4k, with any skills, and my own crits in pyro were only huge on low expertise players, which pose no threat to me in ST spec either. If I go more defensive and use the shielding relic, then I end up shielding half of the rail shots i get hit with.

 

Don't get me wrong, the pyro burst damage was better, but my overall damage was lower because I didn't have a healer to keep me up when I got focused to death. I can see how it would shine, but not in the pug matches on my server.

[Agooz]

I really was complimenting you guys, you're knowledgeable and willing to share tactics. I just prefer the ST over the pyro build for pugs. My rocket punch resets are quite common when not fighting sorcerers. I haven't met a pyro that can crit me for over 4k, with any skills, and my own crits in pyro were only huge on low expertise players, which pose no threat to me in ST spec either. If I go more defensive and use the shielding relic, then I end up shielding half of the rail shots i get hit with.

 

Don't get me wrong, the pyro burst damage was better, but my overall damage was lower because I didn't have a healer to keep me up when I got focused to death. I can see how it would shine, but not in the pug matches on my server.

 

If you want to try a "mitigated" Pyro, give my setup a go. I am pretty sure, because of your playstyle, you will like it. You get 18sec of Energy Shield with 30-40sec in between. That's a ton of damage mitigated. 2pc PvP Combat Medic + 2pc PvE SC.

[Noollig]

If you want to try a "mitigated" Pyro, give my setup a go. I am pretty sure, because of your playstyle, you will like it. You get 18sec of Energy Shield with 30-40sec in between. That's a ton of damage mitigated. 2pc PvP Combat Medic + 2pc PvE SC.

 

I've actually been looking at that, I'm going to try your bubble spec out once I rebuild my credit reserves. Pulling mods and moving them around gets expensive. I'll probably buy some expertise augments too to make up for the expertise loss on the couple armor pieces... if it matters... a shield every 40 seconds is insane, the expertise loss may not matter too much.

[dardack]

and how many kills ? Seems awefully high. Usually a sign there isnt enough burst and healers are just healing through it

 

55-75 Depending. Sometimes they give up and all 8 stand on their 1 node or w/e.

 

We focus healers fast. We faced these 2 healers like 3 wz's in a row. Made them quit playing and go to alts (before the games played daily). 2 pyros can blow a healer up in about 10 seconds. We faced a group of 4 healers in VS cross healing, they didn't get past first door and we capped the databse (we attacked first). Sure it took almost the entire time to get database (30 seconds left on timer) but still.

Edited May 11, 2012 by dardack