mhtheory Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Moddable gear, with augments, is clearly the way to go in pvp. That said, two classes to my knowledge have fully moddable offhands: Marauders Mercenaries Having a moddable offhand allows them the following advantages: -Superior itemization. The ability to choose what mods you want in your gear is a big advantage. -Augmented offhand. In pvp, every edge, no matter how small, is an advantage, that +12 end +18 power augment is an advantage avaliable only to the above two classes. -Additional expertise. The offhands for these classes appear to have more expertise than the offhands for any other class (i havent checked them all). If this was by design, as part of some larger balance effort, fine. If not, all classes should have access to fully moddable, and augmentable offhands. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizersan Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) I dont see the big issue it isn't enough expertise to make a difference because at around 850 expertise you start getting less from it and takes about twice as much to give you 1 more %. Edited May 6, 2012 by Kaizersan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhtheory Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 I dont see the big issue it isn't enough expertise to make a difference because at around 850 expertise you start getting less from it takes about twice as much to give you 1 more % From what i have seen post 1.2 , expertise has minimal to no DR now, i have 1255 for instance and it is a much bigger boost than 850. Expertise isn't the only issue though, they are able to get augmented offhands, and itemize them however they choose. These are both substantial advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funick Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 That said, two classes to my knowledge have fully moddable offhands: Marauders Mercenaries you forgot gunslingers... yeah kind of sucks others dont get the augment slot and added customization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartes Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Moddable gear, with augments, is clearly the way to go in pvp. That said, two classes to my knowledge have fully moddable offhands: Marauders Mercenaries also Gunslingers (starting from BM offhand gun) I am using armor + 2 guns with augments and must say it is a big difference, 7 augments provide me with HP and stat boost I need, screw crap set bonus. Not to mention I could replace color crystals for +41 expertise ones in each gun to get even more expertise. That is if I wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizersan Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) Id have to say I compared my expertise to someone else I had about 600 with 13%+ damage bonus from the expertise the other guy had 1100+ with 22% damage bonus and so he took some of his gear off and about 900 he had 19% damage bonus so that means 300 above mine he gained 6% more but the 300 after that he only gained 3% so as you can see at about 850 to 900 you gain half as much % and the war hero off hands only have 50 less expertise then mod ones so no it doesn't make a big deal. Edited May 6, 2012 by Kaizersan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhtheory Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 also Gunslingers (starting from BM offhand gun) I am using armor + 2 guns with augments and must say it is a big difference, 7 augments provide me with HP and stat boost I need, screw crap set bonus. Not to mention I could replace color crystals for +41 expertise ones in each gun to get even more expertise. That is if I wanted. The fact that you can put an expertise crystal in there makes it even more advantageous.. It has been like this since beta if i recall, and is either an oversight on BW's part, or by design. If it's an oversight, it should be addressed, not by nerfing those who already have moddable offhands, but by giving all the other classes access to them as well. Would just like some clarification... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartes Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 it would be hard to make shields/generators to accept color crystals but you are right. Same choices should be available for every class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartes Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Id have to say I compared my expertise to someone else I had about 600 with 13%+ damage bonus from the expertise the other guy had 1100+ with 22% damage bonus and so he took some of his gear off and about 900 he had 19% damage bonus so that means 300 above mine he gained 6% more but the 300 after that he only gained 3% so as you can see at about 850 to 900 you gain half as much % and the war hero off hands only have 50 less expertise then mod ones so no it doesn't make a big deal. yeah but for example. with such margin you can replace 1 relic for, example, campaign proc relic with insane amount of HP and click free damage addition, or get augmented implant/earpiece for extra stat boost and if you still missing bit of expertise just pur expertise color crystal in your main/offhand and you still good to go. I played with it a bit and my GS can have 20k HP and still sit at 1200+ expertise while not loosing (actually gaining) a lot of damage. All thanks to augmentable gear/guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhtheory Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Id have to say I compared my expertise to someone else I had about 600 with 13%+ damage bonus from the expertise the other guy had 1100+ with 22% damage bonus and so he took some of his gear off and about 900 he had 19% damage bonus so that means 300 above mine he gained 6% more but the 300 after that he only gained 3% so as you can see at about 850 to 900 you gain half as much % and the war hero off hands only have 50 less expertise then mod ones so no it doesn't make a big deal. I dont understand how two classes gaining an obvious advantage over all the others is not a big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocalypse- Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 I dont understand how two classes gaining an obvious advantage over all the others is not a big deal? Said "Obvious advantage" is fully offset by the cluster**** that is offhand accuracy for everyone but Healer/Arsenal Mercs. They actually do get a slight advantage, but it is only slight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Moddable gear, with augments, is clearly the way to go in pvp. That said, two classes to my knowledge have fully moddable offhands: Marauders Mercenaries Having a moddable offhand allows them the following advantages: -Superior itemization. The ability to choose what mods you want in your gear is a big advantage. -Augmented offhand. In pvp, every edge, no matter how small, is an advantage, that +12 end +18 power augment is an advantage avaliable only to the above two classes. -Additional expertise. The offhands for these classes appear to have more expertise than the offhands for any other class (i havent checked them all). If this was by design, as part of some larger balance effort, fine. If not, all classes should have access to fully moddable, and augmentable offhands. What say you? It's a balance issue. Mercs have NO Interrupt. Maras have no long duration CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warultima Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 It's a balance issue. Mercs have NO Interrupt. Maras have no long duration CC. And Gunslinger has both and still get 2 modifiable weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Having a moddable offhand allows them the following advantages... And now I will tell you why dual wielding weapons sucks in ToR. Even with 103% or higher accuracy, your offhand attacks will miss. A lot. Moreover the multi-attack system utilized by many abilities for dual wielders almost guarantees you will miss at least ONCE. Why does that matter? Because increasingly the most common threat to you in wz in the post-1.2 era comes from enemy melee toons. And missing vs. them triggers Retaliation/Riposte. Which mean you just wasted a GCD that caused YOU more damage than it caused your target - who didn't use a GCD. This is a HUGE disadvantage. Personally I would trade in my offhand weapon in an instant for a generator, all else being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) It's a balance issue. Mercs have NO Interrupt. Maras have no long duration CC. Awe? It's a pretty amazing ability, kind of hard to downplay it also if you are trying to make a point. Edited May 6, 2012 by exphryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredbull Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 I second this motion ! Why can't we have moddable offhands? The offhands we get are already poorly itemized and it's a shame we can't have augmented ones with BiS mods. Bioware should stop being lazy and just create moddable ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) From what i have seen post 1.2 , expertise has minimal to no DR now, i have 1255 for instance and it is a much bigger boost than 850. Expertise isn't the only issue though, they are able to get augmented offhands, and itemize them however they choose. These are both substantial advantages. At 900 you get about 19% damage boost, at 1200 you get about 22%, 3% difference, not that big compared to 600 (12%) vs 900 expertise which is 7% difference. Shields and focus/generators can be crafted with aug slots, same goes for implants and relics, definitely go for augmented relics. Edited May 6, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Wanted to check stats to add to this thread. Also, lets take a look at my current weapon and offhand, keeping in mind a Merc can have two of them, first off my War Hero Eliminator Offhand +87 Aim +82 Endurance +113 Expertise +49 power +649 Tech Power +53 Surge. Now my Mainhand. +105 Aim (+18) +120 Endurance (+38) +146 Expertise (+33) +80 Power (+40) +649 Tech Power +53 Surge That's a significant stat difference when you have a moddable offhand too....It's rather (and i hate using this term) Imbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warultima Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 (edited) Wanted to check stats to add to this thread. Also, lets take a look at my current weapon and offhand, keeping in mind a Merc can have two of them, first off my War Hero Eliminator Offhand +87 Aim +82 Endurance +113 Expertise +49 power +649 Tech Power +53 Surge. Now my Mainhand. +105 Aim (+18) +120 Endurance (+38) +146 Expertise (+33) +80 Power (+40) +649 Tech Power +53 Surge That's a significant stat difference when you have a moddable offhand too....It's rather (and i hate using this term) Imbalanced. Everyone with a sane mind knows theres an imbalance between none modifiable offhand vs a modifiable one. As you stated thats easily a -120 stat poiint difference NOT COUNTING the augment. Anyone says otherwise wants to keep their obvious advantages. And no you cannot get BiS PvP offhand with augment slot, its only possible if u DW 2 weapons due to crafted items dont come with War Hero expertise. BTW I will trade being retaliated for 150 more power/str in a heart beat. Considering retaliation cost a whooping 3 rage and does about 1/3 of what annihilation can hit for for only 4 rage normally marauder/sent wont bother using it since every single one of your other offensive abilities hits harder and cost less. I only use retaliation IF IT PROCS AND I HAVE AT LEAST 3 RAGE TO WASTE when the opponent is below 2% hp and vicious throw and annihilate both on CD and hes about to get a heal (because its offGCD attack that does meh damage, with heavy rage cost)... chance of this happening... about once in 10 WZ. This coming from a Rank 82 Sorc with a Rank 59 Marauder in full BM with 2 fully modified sabers (pulled from BM MH and OH) with 2 +41 expertise + 18str 12 endurance augment x 2. Edited May 6, 2012 by warultima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhtheory Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Said "Obvious advantage" is fully offset by the cluster**** that is offhand accuracy for everyone but Healer/Arsenal Mercs. They actually do get a slight advantage, but it is only slight. i would argue that the accuracy issues with offhand attacks are an actual balance mechanic. my point here is that not having a moddable offhand is an oversight, and not part of the overall balance of the classes. this puts the rest of us at a disadvantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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