Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus

[Invictos]

my apologies, i didnt not mean that as a conditional; local language form creeping into my writing style i am afraid;

 

Fair enough. No problem.

 

as it is i am accepting as writ that anikin/vader is the strongest jedi simply because that is the implicit message of the movies (though i do not consider it particularly well expressed)

 

I generally don't accept bald exposition as proof either. In other words, if a character is shown to be incompetent, it doesn't matter to me how many times the author (of a screenplay, novel, or game for that matter) tells us he's awesome.

 

But here we have a bit of a special case: Lucas did not do a particularly good job of demonstrating (movie) Vader's (supposedly) magnificent capabilities relative to his EU counterparts, but Lucas wasn't trying to tell a story about Vader relative to EU characters. He was telling the essential parts of Vader's story in a medium that is much more limited than the books/comics/games of the EU.

 

Notice the word, "essential." The narrative of the original trilogy simply isn't a show piece of Vader's fighting prowess. It's a story about a tragic figure who comes into conflict with his son. We literally never see (on the screen, in the OT) any Vader fight in which we can't assume that he's holding back (or toying with his opponent). So when you say that Vader's demonstrated flaws on screen flatly contradict any supplementary abilities conferred upon him by the novelizations, I can only reply that what you call on-screen flaws aren't even obviously flaws. We can assume almost nothing at all about Vader's capabilities based on how he fights his son (and how he fights his decrepit former friend and mentor when he knows that his mentor plans to lose).

 

And we cannot, therefore, assume that any account (no matter how glowing) of Vader's capabilities in the novels is wrong.

 

whether or not "x is stronger than y" is even a valid way to understand things is what i consider the more interesting question, because whilst the movies make it clear that simply force-sensitivity/power is not the sole determinator of victory in star wars, the fandom as a whole is very poor at understanding that.

 

It's just what fans do. Everyone knows (or should) that the outcome of any fight is largely circumstantial. I'm sure I could concoct a scenario in which I best Mike Tyson in a fist fight, but that doesn't mean that I have any business claiming to be his equal or even in the same league.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Invictos
cut out redundant passage

[Rayla_Felana]

no i didnt. the movies are higher canon. even if they are within the same canon "bracket" (G canon) the movies are absolute canon. the books are not.

 

There is no absolute canon, no such thing was ever described by Leland Chee or Lucas, just the levels that are G-canon, T-canon, C-canon and N-canon.

 

The films and their novelizations are G-canon, then The Clone Wars and then everything else that is considered canon.

 

I believe you mean Source IP is the strongest 'canon'.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Rayla_Felana]

The games and the novelizations of the games are equally C-Canon, though game mechanics are almost never canon.

 

Effectively, you can take either as canon, and it doesn't really matter. Either way, Galen defeated Vader and held his own against Palpatine in a battle of the Force. (IE, the final cutscene.)

 

The in-game cut-scenes don't contradict what the novels of TFU tell us, which is that in TFU Vader was totally impartial and had no real desire to fight and Galen still barely managed to connect that winning strike which allowed him to take out Vader.

 

Then we have the fact that Sidious was toying with him the entire time, it is explicitly stated that Sidious did NOT want Marek dead, in-fact he wanted him as a replacement for Vader, that didn't work though, then when he saw that Galen was a losing battle, he just overwhelmed and killed him.

[Invictos]

The games and the novelizations of the games are equally C-Canon, though game mechanics are almost never canon.

 

Effectively, you can take either as canon, and it doesn't really matter. Either way, Galen defeated Vader and held his own against Palpatine in a battle of the Force. (IE, the final cutscene.)

 

Interesting. I never played the Force Unleashed, but it seems that you're arguing, in principle, that a female Revan could be considered canon simply because a female Revan was technically playable? Or for the sake of equal opportunity, a male Exile?

 

My understanding is that whatever 'official' word comes down about the events in a game is the canon version -- whether that official word takes the form of a novel or a press release. The story as the player experiences it is almost entirely incidental, except to the extent that the game's narrative inspires the official version.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Invictos

[SoonerJBD]

If you want to handicap a fight between these two based on the EU, Vader would win, and it wouldn't be close. Don't forget that even based on movie canon, Vader hunted down the surviving Jedi after Order 66 and massacred all of them. We don't see this in the movies, but it is referenced.

 

That said, this entire discussion has devolved into Exhibit A for where the Star Wars franchise went astray. It used to be about telling a story. The original trilogy wasn't concerned with how much of a ****** Luke was or exactly what Vader's level of mastery over Form V was. It was telling a story about good versus evil, a father and son, redemption.

 

By the time the prequels rolled around, you had this whole expanded universe which makes a big deal over what level force lightning someone has. The cartoons were even worse, because Lucas had to shoehorn needless characters like Grievous into the third movie just because there was some pointless unresolved conflict from a cartoon 99.9 percent of Star Wars fans didn't watch. Watching the movies, you can see some of this reflected. We get a ridiculously long lightsaber battle at the end of Revenge of the Sith when we would have been better served with a minute-long battle that was backed by actual character development. But we needed to know just how awesome these guys were and that they were the two most powerful blah blah blah.

[Velaran]

Interesting. I never played the Force Unleashed, but it seems that you're arguing, in principle, that a female Revan could be considered canon simply because a female Revan was technically playable? Or for the sake of equal opportunity, a male Exile?

 

My understanding is that whatever 'official' word comes down about the events in a game is the canon version -- whether that official word takes the form of a novel or a press release. The story as the player experiences it is almost entirely incidental, except to the extent that the game's narrative inspires the official version.

 

In this case, neither materiel is the official version, because (as of yet) no official version has been named.

 

As for KOTOR, originally they wanted to keep Revan and The Exile's genders and appearances ambiguous, which is refected in the KOTOR comics, where Revan is always hooded or masked. Later, they decided to canonize them to a greater extent, so they settled everything up in TOR. It was more of a retcon.

[anairien]

 

That said, this entire discussion has devolved into Exhibit A for where the Star Wars franchise went astray. It used to be about telling a story. The original trilogy wasn't concerned with how much of a ****** Luke was or exactly what Vader's level of mastery over Form V was. It was telling a story about good versus evil, a father and son, redemption.

 

 

this, so very this.

 

There is no absolute canon, no such thing was ever described by Leland Chee or Lucas, just the levels that are G-canon, T-canon, C-canon and N-canon.

 

The films and their novelizations are G-canon, then The Clone Wars and then everything else that is considered canon.

 

I believe you mean Source IP is the strongest 'canon'.

 

no i mean the movies are the only thing that is truly, incontrovertably and utterly canon. they are the canon. anything that contradicts that, whether implicit or explicit, in spirit or actuality, in implication or act or inaction of character, is not canon in that instance. no matter what position is held in this lovely tier system of canonicity has been invented for EU fans to squabble over.

Edited June 6, 2012 by anairien

[Khirsah]

lol vader

[anairien]

But here we have a bit of a special case: Lucas did not do a particularly good job of demonstrating (movie) Vader's (supposedly) magnificent capabilities relative to his EU counterparts, but Lucas wasn't trying to tell a story about Vader relative to EU characters. He was telling the essential parts of Vader's story in a medium that is much more limited than the books/comics/games of the EU.

 

Notice the word, "essential." The narrative of the original trilogy simply isn't a show piece of Vader's fighting prowess. It's a story about a tragic figure who comes into conflict with his son. We literally never see (on the screen, in the OT) any Vader fight in which we can't assume that he's holding back (or toying with his opponent). So when you say that Vader's demonstrated flaws on screen flatly contradict any supplementary abilities conferred upon him by the novelizations, I can only reply that what you call on-screen flaws aren't even obviously flaws. We can assume almost nothing at all about Vader's capabilities based on how he fights his son (and how he fights his decrepit former friend and mentor when he knows that his mentor plans to lose).

 

while it is debatable whether or not he was holding back against obi wan (the appearance of a relative lack of action compared to other fights does not mean effort and intent are not there-indeed the calmness of it hints that the fight is in fact "for keeps"), ANH is also the only instance where we see anyone, at all, using something resembling actual sword fighting technique, rather than flashy choreography. in that instance we see vader using a proper guard stance and probing for opportunity, and trying to unseat his opponent spiritually without opening himself up to serious threat of attack. this shows to me the reason to believe him a competent swordsman. no competent swordsman toys with their opponent; they go for the kill, whether literally or simply in terms of achieving victory. whilst one could say definitely that vader is toying with luke in ESB, vader had won the second he appeared before luke, without any doubt whatsoever. he probably didnt even have to turn on his lightsaber to make a point of this.

 

(gonna have to leave this post here for now; i will come back to it later and get round to making my point then...currently very ill )

[Rahak]

Vader.

Malgus is pretty lame.

[Invictos]

That said, this entire discussion has devolved into Exhibit A for where the Star Wars franchise went astray. It used to be about telling a story. The original trilogy wasn't concerned with how much of a ****** Luke was or exactly what Vader's level of mastery over Form V was. It was telling a story about good versus evil, a father and son, redemption.

 

By the time the prequels rolled around, you had this whole expanded universe which makes a big deal over what level force lightning someone has. The cartoons were even worse, because Lucas had to shoehorn needless characters like Grievous into the third movie just because there was some pointless unresolved conflict from a cartoon 99.9 percent of Star Wars fans didn't watch. Watching the movies, you can see some of this reflected. We get a ridiculously long lightsaber battle at the end of Revenge of the Sith when we would have been better served with a minute-long battle that was backed by actual character development. But we needed to know just how awesome these guys were and that they were the two most powerful blah blah blah.

 

Well said.

[Invictos]

In this case, neither materiel is the official version, because (as of yet) no official version has been named.

 

As for KOTOR, originally they wanted to keep Revan and The Exile's genders and appearances ambiguous, which is refected in the KOTOR comics, where Revan is always hooded or masked. Later, they decided to canonize them to a greater extent, so they settled everything up in TOR. It was more of a retcon.

 

I appreciate the clarification, but I will quibble on one point here: I remember hearing an uproar over Revan's canon-defined fate years and years before TOR was even a glimmer in Bioware's eye. Ditto the Exile's. So whatever form the canon-official announcement took, TOR had nothing to do with it.

 

I would assume that a novel released shortly after (or concurrently with) a game would have the official version of the story in it, but perhaps that's not a safe assumption.

[Invictos]

while it is debatable whether or not he was holding back against obi wan (the appearance of a relative lack of action compared to other fights does not mean effort and intent are not there-indeed the calmness of it hints that the fight is in fact "for keeps"), ANH is also the only instance where we see anyone, at all, using something resembling actual sword fighting technique, rather than flashy choreography. in that instance we see vader using a proper guard stance and probing for opportunity, and trying to unseat his opponent spiritually without opening himself up to serious threat of attack. this shows to me the reason to believe him a competent swordsman. no competent swordsman toys with their opponent; they go for the kill, whether literally or simply in terms of achieving victory. whilst one could say definitely that vader is toying with luke in ESB, vader had won the second he appeared before luke, without any doubt whatsoever. he probably didnt even have to turn on his lightsaber to make a point of this.

 

(gonna have to leave this post here for now; i will come back to it later and get round to making my point then...currently very ill )

 

I'm sorry to hear that you're not feeling well, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

 

Still, I think you've agreed with me here, whether you realize it or not. We can't draw any firm conclusions about Vader's capabilities from the fights in the original trilogy. His effort, his motivations, are at best ambiguous (or to use your word, "debatable"), and thus there's no basis on which to dismiss any supplementary information from the EU. As Sooner admirably points out, the original movies weren't concerned with defining characters' power levels as if they were NPCs in a tabletop RPG. The original movies were designed to tell a story, and a rather personal one.

 

Again, I personally don't like most of the EU. I generally don't like bringing up the EU in conversations about the movies, and I absolutely hate it when people defend the (prequel) movies on the basis that their novelizations fill in the gaps. But in this particular case, we're not evaluating the movies. We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation.

[OneDon]

 

What did Vader really accomplish without Sid's direction? Almost nothing.

 

Good point and it's the same point why I think Vadar would win.

 

Firstly when Vadar and Sidious were around the rule of two was in full swing. "One to embody power, the other to crave it"

 

The rule of two largely consolodated the power of the dark Side around two beings, Master and Apprentice. Darth Bane commented on how the dark side was diluted amongst many Sith, where they should be craving power.

 

Furthermore Vadar benefitted from learning from the Dark Lord of the Sith, The Emporer and arguably the most powerful Sith in history. Vadar would have also benefitted from Sith knowledge developed over 1000s years after Malgus would have died and was himself pretty powerful, what with him being able to routinely kill Jedi Masters, despite never reaching the level as Anakin.

 

Vadar didn't need to and probably couldn't openly defy the Emperor in the way that Malgus was ableto defy and power grab against the Dark Council. For Starters The Empire was larger and had more resources than the Old Sith Empire (Sidi's Empire held both republic and imperial space). Lastly, what was there for Vadar to power gab except Sidi's life, which was the point of the rule of two?

[Rayla_Felana]

no i mean the movies are the only thing that is truly, incontrovertably and utterly canon. they are the canon. anything that contradicts that, whether implicit or explicit, in spirit or actuality, in implication or act or inaction of character, is not canon in that instance. no matter what position is held in this lovely tier system of canonicity has been invented for EU fans to squabble over.

 

I agree entirely, but the novelizations and many of the other novels are written specifically with keeping the movies in complete clarity, all they ever attempt is to define certain scenes and give us more information on the events that the movies may not have portrayed.

[Rayla_Felana]

Good point and it's the same point why I think Vadar would win.

 

Firstly when Vadar and Sidious were around the rule of two was in full swing. "One to embody power, the other to crave it"

 

The rule of two largely consolodated the power of the dark Side around two beings, Master and Apprentice. Darth Bane commented on how the dark side was diluted amongst many Sith, where they should be craving power.

 

Furthermore Vadar benefitted from learning from the Dark Lord of the Sith, The Emporer and DEFINITELY Word of God canon the most powerful Sith in history. Vadar would have also benefitted from Sith knowledge developed over 1000s years after Malgus would have died and was himself pretty powerful, what with him being able to routinely kill Jedi Masters, despite never reaching the level as Anakin.

 

Vadar didn't need to and probably couldn't openly defy the Emperor in the way that Malgus was ableto defy and power grab against the Dark Council. For Starters The Empire was larger and had more resources than the Old Sith Empire (Sidi's Empire held both republic and imperial space). Lastly, what was there for Vadar to power gab except Sidi's life, which was the point of the rule of two?

 

Fixed.

[Rayla_Felana]

We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation.

 

Precisely what I was about to say.

[anairien]

I'm sorry to hear that you're not feeling well, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

 

Still, I think you've agreed with me here, whether you realize it or not. We can't draw any firm conclusions about Vader's capabilities from the fights in the original trilogy. His effort, his motivations, are at best ambiguous (or to use your word, "debatable"), and thus there's no basis on which to dismiss any supplementary information from the EU. As Sooner admirably points out, the original movies weren't concerned with defining characters' power levels as if they were NPCs in a tabletop RPG. The original movies were designed to tell a story, and a rather personal one.

 

Again, I personally don't like most of the EU. I generally don't like bringing up the EU in conversations about the movies, and I absolutely hate it when people defend the (prequel) movies on the basis that their novelizations fill in the gaps. But in this particular case, we're not evaluating the movies. We're trying to compare two characters, one of which only appears in EU continuity, and so we must apply EU info as liberally as we can. Unless there is a direct and unambiguous contradiction to the movie canon, we must assume that any description of Vader's EU-enhanced capabilities is accurate for the purpose of this conversation.

 

what i was moving towards with my previous post (simply dont have the energfy to be as comprehensive now) is not that EU stuff be ignored entirely, but only (in this instance) related to vaders ability as a fencer. for instance; if in the EU (i wouldnt know) vader is shown to be able to move a star destroyer with the force (something that starkiller character can do), this is not contradicted by the movies, it is simply unshown. however, if an eu book were to present vader as capable of the highly acobatic combat style we see yoda use in AOTC and ROTS, then that would be wrong, going by what vader is shown to be capable of in ANH, ESB and ROTJ, where he uses a much more conservative style that relies on dominating "the center" (a hold over of the combat in the kurosawa epics star wars is influenced by) and overwhelming the opponent with strong but basic assaults.

 

whether vader chooses not or cannot use that acrobatic style is irrelevant, all that is relevant for my argument is that he does not. unless lucas himself states otherwise (iirc he has explicitly stated all these lightsaber form business is claptrap yes?) this position should be pretty valid imo.

 

this is what i was intending to say at least. back to bed now

[defrostx]

Vader - James Earl Jones.

Nuff said.

[nartiuslightlord]

You have to look at it like this..Vader was building power to defeat sidious at some point in time. so if you want to compare who would be able to kill sidious it would have to be vader. I think malgus was equal with darth maul since both employed a certain way of using stuns by kicking or dirty combat tricks to gain the upperhand. allot of tera kasi training with saber training.

 

Both encounters with satele shan and the attack on the jedi temple showed malgus employed dirty tricks to gain the upper hand. he never fights fair as it should be he wants you dead, but it's interesting to note that his power in combat was pale compared to vaders power in the force.

 

In a straight up saber duel malgus would have the mobility advantage and his stuns and dirty fighting style would get him owned when vader used the force to hurl a battle cruiser at him.

[Invictos]

whether vader chooses not or cannot use that acrobatic style is irrelevant, all that is relevant for my argument is that he does not. unless lucas himself states otherwise (iirc he has explicitly stated all these lightsaber form business is claptrap yes?) this position should be pretty valid imo.

 

No, it's not irrelevant. Since we're comparing Vader to an EU character, we have to accept any EU description of Vader's capabilities that doesn't directly contradict the movies. It doesn't matter that the movies imply that he has no mobility; there's enough ambiguity in the movies that, for the purpose of our discussion, we can accept the EU's explanation.

 

There is one moment in ESB when Vader leaps into the air and quite gracefully -- almost daintily -- lands on his feet at the bottom of a long staircase in Bespin. That one moment, alone, is enough for me to believe that Vader has at least some hidden (to the movie audience) dexterity. If the EU says that he's as agile as Episode II's Yoda -- yeah, sure, that's BS. But if the EU portrays Vader with much more agility than you might otherwise expect, based on the movies? Gotta allow it, at least in this one case.

 

Given that post-OT Jedi (and by that I mean jedi in stories that were written after the OT) are shown to have almost limitless mobility, it's pretty obvious that Vader will have some sort of disadvantage against an unencumbered and otherwise equal foe, but it's not fair to assume that he's literally as plodding as he's generally shown to be in the OT. His portrayal as a plodding, steam-roller-like juggernaut in the OT is, after all, as much thematic as it is functional. Lucas ingeniously cast Vader as a kind of personification of inevitability.

 

As for Lucas' opinion on lightsaber forms, he probably does think they're claptrap. Hell, I kinda think they're claptrap, but when in Rome. Depending on what time of day it is, you could probably get Lucas to admit that he thinks the entire EU -- including Malgus himself -- is claptrap. For our purposes, we have to compare like to like, even if we don't like much of the material.

[QuiQuaeQuod]

Actually he is right, Vader with a severed hand (again?) took Galen Marek's extremely powerful Force Lightning and the full power of two lightning Pylons, on KAMINO of all places and just knelt down, with steam coming off of him, about an hour later he seemed fine when Marek talked with him.

 

This debunks the idea that he has a weakness to Force Lightning, this was uncovered to be just an assumption, when he was killed by Darth Sidious, he was taking at point-blank range the most powerful Force Lightning ever, what is most impressive is that he picked up Sidious, threw him down the reactor shaft and managed to survive, unaided by his life-sustaining rage, and made it all the way from the Throne Room in the Observation tower, to the shuttle bay of the Death Star II, a moon-sized Battlestation.

 

Consider the fact Sidious' lightning could turn an entire room of enemies into ash, this is saying a lot.

 

To be honest, I don't really think anything in Force Unleashed can be taken as a reference point for the scale and nature of individual's power - it involves every random Jedi under the sun hurling lightning around and force powers on a scale never seen elsewhere in Star Wars, and can only really be interpreted as poetic licence.

[Wolfninjajedi]

To be honest, I don't really think anything in Force Unleashed can be taken as a reference point for the scale and nature of individual's power - it involves every random Jedi under the sun hurling lightning around and force powers on a scale never seen elsewhere in Star Wars, and can only really be interpreted as poetic licence.

 

Then read the novel, Galen's powers are much more tame in the novel then in the game. Because the game is meant for over the top fun, so in the novel of the game which is the actual canon. He can still use the pylons to charge his force lighting and blast Vader, in which it only makes him take a knee.

 

"I used to be a sith lord like you, then I took force lightning to the knee." Lol sorry couldn't resist.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[OneDon]

If Malgus had suffered the injuries Anakin did (that turned him into Vadar) he'd have either died or been left for dead by Sidious.

 

There is a post above debating whether Vadar has acrobatic and dexterity skills on par with other Jedi. He fought and killed Masters so it's likely that he did in excess of what is shown and could be shown in the movies due to technological limitations.

[Wolfninjajedi]

If Malgus had suffered the injuries Anakin did (that turned him into Vadar) he'd have either died or been left for dead by Sidious.

 

There is a post above debating whether Vadar has acrobatic and dexterity skills on par with other Jedi. He fought and killed Masters so it's likely that he did in excess of what is shown and could be shown in the movies due to technological limitations.

 

More then likely, Malgus would have died if he had gotten the injures that Anakin had. Because Anakin, had an unbreakable will to survive, he was kept alive until Sidious came(from Courscant) just by his pure hatrad and will. I don't think Malgus has that huge amount of willpower.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi