BW please explain how a Commando should beat a Marauder/Juggernaut

[brutalor]

Please this isn't a troll post.

 

i Just i want someone that have tested this game before 1.2 patche h to explain how those tests were done.

 

I think you made some test and now explain to me how should i beat a marauder/juggernaut with my commando.

 

Gunnery DPS

 

1) With gunnery tree a critical hit of grav round doesn't hit more than 1,6k. They have from 16 to 19k of life, now show me how can i defeat them with this damage output. Even this skill is fully interruptable.

 

Note: a normal hit of Grav Round also on a Mercenary/Commando do something like 2,1 - 2,3k of damage and they have heavy armor. They have medium. Grav Round is kinetic so the value of armor would count against this type of damage.

 

2) The same is for Demolition Round, the skill that you have "buffed". I usually have critical hits of 1.8k from 2.0k. The same question. How can i defeat a 18k guy with a 15 sec cooldown skill that hits for 2k?

 

3) High Impact Bolt, another 15 sec cooldown skill that hit very low and plus have been deflected most of time cause is white damage.

 

4) About defense. There is nothing you can do mostly of time that you knock back them they jump over you. You move so slowly that doesn't matter, you have a dot placed on you so doesn't count anything.

 

Now let's talk about Assault Specialist that is quite better but have some no sense trigger like Gunnery.

 

1) When i hit harder (30% below his life) they can be invulnerable and mostly of time they drink their rakata medpac. It makes my ability quite useless because the burning effect is vanishing and they are still at the same quantity of life.

 

2) Burning critical hits that are almost hitting for 500-800 hp on other classes over a marauder/juggernaut only scores 250-300 for tick.

 

3) Full Auto that is a Ionic Accelerator trigger hit a marauder 3 time for mostly 500-600 single tick = total below 2k.

 

4) HiB when hits (because so many times it's deflected/dodged or parried) hits for a critcal of 2.1k. Non critical hits are from 1,1k to 1,3k.

 

5) Hammer Shots, due to a lot of Shield and Procs are many times parried/dodged or deflected.

 

Conclusions:

 

I was one of the most active Commando Gunnery of my European Server. I think i've understood well my class and i was enjoying pretty much before 1.2 patch. Here there's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r04MvwNIBPw.

 

Marauders/Juggernaut were also good before 1.2 but honestly there was competition and competition is funny.

 

Now there's no competition against these 2 classes with 2 ability (the strongest swing that hit 6-7k and the throwing of their saber that hit 3k) i remain with half of my life in something like 3 seconds. Than is pretty simple: he put on me his dot, strangle me and only wait for me to die.

 

NOW PLEASE SOMEONE THAT PROGRAMMED THIS PATCH EXPLAIN HOW YOU HAVE DONE YOUR TESTS.

HOW I HAVE SUPPOSED TO BEAT A MARAUDER WITH MY NERFED CLASS.

 

FINAL NOTE: I'M NOT SAYING "NERF THE MARAUDER/JUGGERNAUT CLASS", I'M SAYING THAT BEFORE 1.2 I HAD CHANCE TO KILL A MARAUDER AND NOW I DON'T HAVE ANYMORE. DONT NERF THEM, BUFF US. STOP NERFING.

 

THANKS FOR ATTENTION.

Edited May 5, 2012 by brutalor

[Kushtaka]

Bro, have you not seen the Star Wars movies? Look at how bad/stupid stormtroopers were; that's the Commando/Vanguard whether you want to accept it or not. Like 5 of them couldn't even kill ******** Luke when he was trapped on that ledge. Or how about when they found Princess Leah on that ship, she capped one and the blast didn't even hit him yet he fell over. All troopers were good for was jackin' Jawas and jumping Jedi's when they had their backs turned. Troopers are supposed to be bad according to the LORE damnit. That's why, until subs run out, you need to abandon your Commando and play a Sentinel. Easy fix.

[PacificaSolaria]

@Kushtaka You really shouldn't base all troopers effectiveness on their ability to kill the protagonists of a story.

 

@the OP. No clue. I'm still in the pre-50 warzones and missing pvp tools.

Edited May 6, 2012 by PacificaSolaria

[JGames]

I do not know what your talking about here.

 

I have a level 27 Marauder, and low-30's Commandos kill me all the time (no, I do not need to l2p).

[MasterRodimus]

I have the same frustration, why in earth I can't kill them atitude.

I'm going to wait for the next balacing patch and see where that takes us, if its in the right direction ill continue playing if not, I will just unsub.

[Goibhnie]

Bro, have you not seen the Star Wars movies? Look at how bad/stupid stormtroopers were; that's the Commando/Vanguard whether you want to accept it or not. Like 5 of them couldn't even kill ******** Luke when he was trapped on that ledge. Or how about when they found Princess Leah on that ship, she capped one and the blast didn't even hit him yet he fell over. All troopers were good for was jackin' Jawas and jumping Jedi's when they had their backs turned. Troopers are supposed to be bad according to the LORE damnit. That's why, until subs run out, you need to abandon your Commando and play a Sentinel. Easy fix.

 

Okay then in WZ we should be able to 'one shot' all the force users from behind. Nope still can't do that. Lore doesn't work in this game. As I'm pretty sure you have caught on there...

@Playing sub 50 arguement: OP I'm pretty sure was taking the 50 angle and applying it to end game where commandos are soft targets/easy kills.

 

OP I like the angle you are taking with this and I'm curious how the dev team believes they can honestly answer this without being completely biases. Because I'd like a few of the Mara on my server to show them what is possible.

 

footnote - if you see a mara getting low in health throw up a stealth scan before your next shot, it'll last through them trying to get away if timed properly and really piss them off

[azhrione]

With the assumption that all cooldowns are available, this is how you make the attempt.

 

Wait for the leap, pop Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush, Concussion Charge to interrupt the Master Strike/Ravage. He's now snared, Full Auto, into GR, then move. Use Sticky Grenade, Demo Round, and HiB while kiting, use Field Aid if he snares you. Eventually he'll stop chasing when leap goes off cooldown and repeat the process. No matter what you do, DO NOT FILL HIS RESOLVE BAR.

 

When below 30% he'll pop his cooldowns, if he goes invulnerable Immediately Cyro Grenade him, then Concussion Charge him back, and run like hell. By the time he catches up you can mop him up with the above rotation. If he goes invis you can break it with Stealth Scan, but you're probably better off using it as a chance to heal yourself.

 

That is how you attempt to kill a Sentinel/Marauder, more often than not you still die, but it isn't impossible. Now the above assumes a 1v1 fight, if you have friends just ask them to get the flying monkey off of you.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Parali
rude

[Arzoo]

Why wouldn't the Marauder just use the stealth after you concussion charge? He should be smart enough to know that it's the last time he'll need to close the gap since leap will always be ready before concussion charge's cooldown is up, and also that by denying the Commando an opening grav round he makes the fight trivial (and he can even stall a few seconds off of your defenses, which is I wouldn't use them until after he bypasses your initial concussion charge).

[azhrione]

Why wouldn't the Marauder just use the stealth after you concussion charge? He should be smart enough to know that it's the last time he'll need to close the gap since leap will always be ready before concussion charge's cooldown is up, and also that by denying the Commando an opening grav round he makes the fight trivial (and he can even stall a few seconds off of your defenses, which is I wouldn't use them until after he bypasses your initial concussion charge).

 

Easy to deal with, see him stealth after the first Concussion Charge, then you just Stealth Scan and Cyro him, and get away.

[Arzoo]

In the global cooldown it takes you to use stealth scan he'll already be almost in melee range as you hit cryo, since it also makes them run faster. (Part of why I think stealth scan's immobilize should be baseline and not hidden in the vanguard tank tree, or at least put in the shared assault tree in place of the laughable 2% defense nightvision scope gives).

 

You'd also be giving him a full resolve bar, which leaves him no reason to not hit his cc break and immediately go to town on you.

[azhrione]

Him being in melee range is not instant death, not by a long shot.

 

Biggest thing here is you got him to blow one of his cooldowns, and Master Strike/Ravage is on cooldown. It isn't impossible, that is the point.

 

The question was posted on how, this is how, and it isn't always going to work. These classes are designed to slaughter immobile ranged DPS, they do far worse against melee DPS and especially tanks.

[Arzoo]

Him being in melee range is not instant death, not by a long shot.

 

Biggest thing here is you got him to blow one of his cooldowns, and Master Strike/Ravage is on cooldown. It isn't impossible, that is the point.

 

The question was posted on how, this is how, and it isn't always going to work. These classes are designed to slaughter immobile ranged DPS, they do far worse against melee DPS and especially tanks.

 

All the cooldowns he blew other than cc-break are on shorter ones than the abilities you had to use, plus you have yet to deal damage to him and he is now immune to cc.

 

I'm not saying it's instant death, I'm just pointing out that if they want to be in melee range then it doesn't matter how well you play they are still going to be in melee range without even expending many resources compared to what you've used (the cc break is the main thing he has to burn but since resolve filled it doesn't really matter).

[azhrione]

In 1v1 you're at the mercy of the RNG, good crits and a little luck and it's possible.

 

What I've found in group based pvp, which is the only kinda that really happens now, is that if you can keep them occupied and off your healers then it doesn't matter if they kill you.

[NDiggy]

So many bads play this game. Its so easy to handle marauders. I'll share my pro knowledge with the class just so we can put an end to all these threads.

 

First you need to make sure you have your r@pe whistle equipped. Next, and this is important, you need to curl up into a tight ball, but not so tight you can't blow your r@pe whistle. Typically, I like to use my free hand to cover my balls, but if you're a pretty boy, you can use it to protect your face. The third step is key, you need to blow the r@pe whistle as soon as you see the marauder. If you wait too long, the marauder may get penetration before help can get there. And this brings me to the fourth step, always pre-lube before entering war zones. This is critical and is essential to make any encounter with a marauder as quick and painless for both you and the marauder as possible.

 

Follow these quick and easy steps and you'll find dealing with marauders is a piece of cake. Now that I've dropped this knowledge on ya'll I don't want to hear anymore complaining about marauders.

[Caesar]

honestly i don't have much problems with marauders/juggernauts in warzones with Assault. I click my critical adrenal>>tech override>>>reserve powercell>>>Plasma Grenade>>Incinderary Round>>HIB>>>Hammer shots till plasma cell pops>>Full Auto>>HIB>>somewhere in there a assault plastique or grav round (if your hybrid) On a Marauder or Juggernaut you are going to be highly reliant on your dots and when they crit is when they are most effective. between plasma grenade and incinderary round you have about 5k total damage to tick through then you have plasma cell and your regular attacks. Good thing about assault is hammer shots snares them. This is how i deal with them and am very successful with it. If they kill me they are usually dead to anyways because the dots will eventually take them out. when they leap to me i usually hit concussion charge to throw them back and i wait for them to hit their invulnerability to use my cryo nade to burn 4 seconds of that, if they hit their stunbreak then i can use my long duration stun on them to wait it out. there are a lot of strategies for them, try them out see which works best for you.

[Caesar]

So many bads play this game. Its so easy to handle marauders. I'll share my pro knowledge with the class just so we can put an end to all these threads.

 

First you need to make sure you have your r@pe whistle equipped. Next, and this is important, you need to curl up into a tight ball, but not so tight you can't blow your r@pe whistle. Typically, I like to use my free hand to cover my balls, but if you're a pretty boy, you can use it to protect your face. The third step is key, you need to blow the r@pe whistle as soon as you see the marauder. If you wait too long, the marauder may get penetration before help can get there. And this brings me to the fourth step, always pre-lube before entering war zones. This is critical and is essential to make any encounter with a marauder as quick and painless for both you and the marauder as possible.

 

Follow these quick and easy steps and you'll find dealing with marauders is a piece of cake. Now that I've dropped this knowledge on ya'll I don't want to hear anymore complaining about marauders.

 

 

ummm yeah....way to go comparing the fight to a sex act.

[Easpeak]

Bro, have you not seen the Star Wars movies? Look at how bad/stupid stormtroopers were; that's the Commando/Vanguard whether you want to accept it or not. Like 5 of them couldn't even kill ******** Luke when he was trapped on that ledge. Or how about when they found Princess Leah on that ship, she capped one and the blast didn't even hit him yet he fell over. All troopers were good for was jackin' Jawas and jumping Jedi's when they had their backs turned. Troopers are supposed to be bad according to the LORE damnit. That's why, until subs run out, you need to abandon your Commando and play a Sentinel. Easy fix.

 

Bros that do not know Leia from Leah should not give advice to other bros.

[HTPRO]

a marauder / juggernaut should never lose to a gunnery commando. Assault commando might have a chance but I still believe an equally geared skilled mara / jugg will always win against commando.

 

What you have to understand, dear OP, is that some classes [okay, one class - commando] are not meant to be 1v1 machines. If you let a gunnery commando pound on enemies you pretty much lose. If you have a melee pound on gunnery commando you win.

 

Also if you crit for 2k with demo round, something is wrong with your gear. I'm hitting 3.8K demos on medium armour with 4 grav vortexes and i'm not even full battlemaster.

[SgtRock]

Him being in melee range is not instant death, not by a long shot.

 

Biggest thing here is you got him to blow one of his cooldowns, and Master Strike/Ravage is on cooldown. It isn't impossible, that is the point.

 

The question was posted on how, this is how, and it isn't always going to work. These classes are designed to slaughter immobile ranged DPS, they do far worse against melee DPS and especially tanks.

 

As someone who plays both a Gunnery Commando and a Sentinel, here's the difference - YOU are working your butt off... HE isn't even breaking a sweat.

 

Can you do it? Yes. Is it Balanced? Not even KIND-OF.

[Pavixx]

I'm sick of the argument.

 

A) 1v1 fights are rare so arguing who is best at them is pointless.

If you are 1v1 defending a point, your only goal is to survive until someone shows up to help before more forces come to wipe you out.

Balance should not be done around 1v1.

 

B) Every example stated shows marauder using every single defensive cooldown.

If someone needs to use all their CDs to get a single kill that probably means very little (as 1v1s usually happen between points and don't actually accomplish much) then they won't have those CDs up once they get to the point. They are just as bad off as you are for about as much time as you take to respawn and get back to it.

 

C) Its not even that bad.

[Arzoo]

I always assume that both parties should be prepared to use every cooldown to win the fight.

[pbxsparx]

I do not know what your talking about here.

 

I have a level 27 Marauder, and low-30's Commandos kill me all the time (no, I do not need to l2p).

 

Nobody is talking about low levels here, thread starter clearly stated 16-18k HP which means High-End PvP!

 

Low level PvP doesn't matter so l2p.

[brutalor]

thanks for all people that are posting here.

 

i still wait for a explaination of how those tests were done.

 

most people always talk about a fight with all active cooldown but mostly on pvp you know that it's quite impossible.

 

i want only to focus the BW and the Commando Comunity that a MARAUDER was also very good before 1.2 and i was enjoying very tought fight against him. Now there is no chance for a Gunnery Commando cause of their savage nerfing on our DPS Class that is full of weakness like before but even now has a ridiculous damage output.

 

The proof that BW made all wrong is that WZs are FULL of freshly marauders. And listen to me, those people didn't understand nothing because JUGGERNAUT with DPS Spec is 5 times better than a MARAUDER.

 

With 1.2 all the TANK classes with DPS specs are overpower compared on the other class with the same shared tree.

 

Look at ASSAULT SPECIALIST between Commandos and Vanguards.

Look at rRAGE between JUGGERNAUTS and MARAUDERS.

 

For both same damage output (or even much loking at Vanguard/Commando) and a lot of damaging reduction.

 

THAT'S THE PROOF BW is doing it wrong.

 

I'm not saying before 1.2 this game was "great" but surely was pretty much balanced than at this moment where i still see 3 classes growing on all warzones.

[SeloDaoC]

 

With the assumption that all cooldowns are available, this is how you make the attempt.

 

Wait for the leap, pop Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush, Concussion Charge to interrupt the Master Strike/Ravage. He's now snared, Full Auto, into GR, then move. Use Sticky Grenade, Demo Round, and HiB while kiting, use Field Aid if he snares you. Eventually he'll stop chasing when leap goes off cooldown and repeat the process. No matter what you do, DO NOT FILL HIS RESOLVE BAR.

 

When below 30% he'll pop his cooldowns, if he goes invulnerable Immediately Cyro Grenade him, then Concussion Charge him back, and run like hell. By the time he catches up you can mop him up with the above rotation. If he goes invis you can break it with Stealth Scan, but you're probably better off using it as a chance to heal yourself.

 

That is how you attempt to kill a Sentinel/Marauder, more often than not you still die, but it isn't impossible. Now the above assumes a 1v1 fight, if you have friends just ask them to get the flying monkey off of you.

 

knockback > marauder leaps back > you have given him free resolve

or sabre throw to root you and hits for 3,5k damage (builds no resolve) he runs back up to you.

throw concussion, hes now using break free with full resolve

anything you now cast will be interupted by stuns, interupts or force push, and he havent even used his survivability cooldowns yet, and you are out of ammo from beeing interupted over and over, and are forced to cast hammershot for 200 damage a hit.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Parali
bad quote

[Fhrosty]

To the OP, you're not particularly likely to hear from a SWTOR programmer in this forum. There's a buffer (community reps) for that, and a separate sub-forum.

 

But on topic, I recall reading early on that pvp in this game is intended to be less "1v1" balanced and more "rock paper scissors" balanced. Is it possible you're just facing the commando kryptonite? I'm not sure which classes are rocks, papers, or scissors, but it sounds like more often than not this is just one fight I'd cryo, concuss, and run from. Also, there seems to be a pretty wide-spread opinion that Marauders are just OP right now and next in line for the nerf-hammer.