A CM Reply To Sorcerer PvP Survivability

[Cempa]

Sorcerer is based on the Mage archetype in most MMO's wearing Light armor and has a wide range of control abilities, Sorcerer are supposed to be at a disadvantage when facing melee burst classes such as Marauder and Operatives but are supposed to be at an advantage when facing tank archetypes.

 

What do you guys think, do Sorcerers have an advantage when facing tank builds?

 

What about other DPS builds, what are Pyro Vanguards?

Edited May 3, 2012 by Cempa

[Quor]

Sorcerer is based on the Mage archetype in most MMO's wearing Light armor and has a wide range of control abilities, Sorcerer are supposed to be at a disadvantage when facing melee burst classes such as Marauder and Operatives but are supposed to be at an advantage when facing tank archetypes.

 

What do you guys think, do Sorcerers have an advantage when facing tank builds?

 

What about other DPS builds, what are Pyro Vanguards?

 

Yes, they do have an advantage vs. tank types. Any tank class stacking tank stats in pvp is wasting their time against Sorcs (and also Arsenal Mercs/Gunnery Commandos, who are heavily cast-based classes). All attacks a Sorc makes (exception: the two Lightsaber attacks that a Sorc should never use) bypass both shield and defense.

 

A skilled Madness Sorc will destroy a Marauder unless the Marauder happens to get the Sorc w/o any kind of CC or defensive ability (WW/Electrocute/Speed/Overload on CD or the Mara has full resolve and the Sorc is stupid). Even better, a skilled Madness Sorc can more or less make a Marauder useless with good usage of FL and Force Slow to keep the Mara out of melee range.

 

Ops have a bit more of an advantage thanks to stealth, and if done right they can hurt Sorcs pretty badly, but if caught out in the open or brought out of stealth before they get their opener off a Lightning or Madness Sorc can deal with an Op pretty easily. The key lies in the opener; if the Op gets it, then life gets a lot harder for the Sorc. If the Sorc can stop that opener, then they get a big advantage over the Op. Just remember to Affliction the Op ASAP to mitigate the advantage of their vanish.

 

Pyrotech/Assault Specialist for PT and Vanguard are still quite insane. Ops/Mercs have less to worry about with that since they can cleanse the DoT effect, which reduces a lot of the power of those specs, but Sorcs are kinda SoL unless they're deep heal and keep on top of cleansing. A DPS Sorc has an advantage in their shields, pre-shielding goes a long way towards victory against Pyrotech/AS. Alpha strike also confers an advantage; whoever gets the first drop usually wins.

[Dratten]

Yes, they do have an advantage vs. tank types. Any tank class stacking tank stats in pvp is wasting their time against Sorcs (and also Arsenal Mercs/Gunnery Commandos, who are heavily cast-based classes). All attacks a Sorc makes (exception: the two Lightsaber attacks that a Sorc should never use) bypass both shield and defense.

 

A skilled Madness Sorc will destroy a Marauder unless the Marauder happens to get the Sorc w/o any kind of CC or defensive ability (WW/Electrocute/Speed/Overload on CD or the Mara has full resolve and the Sorc is stupid). Even better, a skilled Madness Sorc can more or less make a Marauder useless with good usage of FL and Force Slow to keep the Mara out of melee range.

 

Ops have a bit more of an advantage thanks to stealth, and if done right they can hurt Sorcs pretty badly, but if caught out in the open or brought out of stealth before they get their opener off a Lightning or Madness Sorc can deal with an Op pretty easily. The key lies in the opener; if the Op gets it, then life gets a lot harder for the Sorc. If the Sorc can stop that opener, then they get a big advantage over the Op. Just remember to Affliction the Op ASAP to mitigate the advantage of their vanish.

 

Pyrotech/Assault Specialist for PT and Vanguard are still quite insane. Ops/Mercs have less to worry about with that since they can cleanse the DoT effect, which reduces a lot of the power of those specs, but Sorcs are kinda SoL unless they're deep heal and keep on top of cleansing. A DPS Sorc has an advantage in their shields, pre-shielding goes a long way towards victory against Pyrotech/AS. Alpha strike also confers an advantage; whoever gets the first drop usually wins.

 

A skilled sorcerer will destroy a marauder? Seriously? What game have you been playing? YOu shouldnt talk about things you know nothing of. A marauder rips a sorcs head off atm. Sorcs have nothing agianst any class 1on1. We might have some support function but I doubt it.. You cannot be a sorc player.. you just cant..

Edited May 3, 2012 by Dratten

[Quor]

A skilled sorcerer will destroy a marauder? Seriously? What game have you been playing? YOu shouldnt talk about things you know nothing of. A marauder rips a sorcs head off atm. Sorcs have nothing agianst any class 1on1. We might have some support function but I doubt it.. You cannot be a sorc player.. you just cant..

 

I both have a Sorc and I run with a valor rank 85+ Sorc who kicks all kinds of *** all the time. I've seen Marauders jump on him when he's at 75% and he beats them, from full to dead, without any outside help. And these aren't freshly 50 Mara's either; these are geared guys who have been pvping almost as long as my Sorc friend has.

 

He's a very skillful player and most Sorcs....aren't. I can count on one hand the number of Sorc's I've seen utilize kiting and LoS when they are fighting an opponent who has more life than them (or heck, ANY opponent at all). If you try and face-tank a Marauder, then yes, you'll die, but with the exception of defending a Voidstar door, each WZ has plenty of LoS obstacles to use in order to keep a Mara at bay. If you expect to stand toe-to-toe with a Marauder and survive, then you deserve the quick death you get. But if you're constantly moving, utilizing Force Slow, timing your Overload after the Charge, and being careful with how you use your CC, it's very possible for a Sorc to destroy a Marauder.

 

But, again, most Sorcs don't think like that. Most Sorcs I see approach pvp like it's another kind of pve and don't adjust their play accordingly.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Quor

[majahlaza]

Yes, they do have an advantage vs. tank types. Any tank class stacking tank stats in pvp is wasting their time against Sorcs (and also Arsenal Mercs/Gunnery Commandos, who are heavily cast-based classes). All attacks a Sorc makes (exception: the two Lightsaber attacks that a Sorc should never use) bypass both shield and defense.

 

A skilled Madness Sorc will destroy a Marauder unless the Marauder happens to get the Sorc w/o any kind of CC or defensive ability (WW/Electrocute/Speed/Overload on CD or the Mara has full resolve and the Sorc is stupid). Even better, a skilled Madness Sorc can more or less make a Marauder useless with good usage of FL and Force Slow to keep the Mara out of melee range.

 

Ops have a bit more of an advantage thanks to stealth, and if done right they can hurt Sorcs pretty badly, but if caught out in the open or brought out of stealth before they get their opener off a Lightning or Madness Sorc can deal with an Op pretty easily. The key lies in the opener; if the Op gets it, then life gets a lot harder for the Sorc. If the Sorc can stop that opener, then they get a big advantage over the Op. Just remember to Affliction the Op ASAP to mitigate the advantage of their vanish.

 

Pyrotech/Assault Specialist for PT and Vanguard are still quite insane. Ops/Mercs have less to worry about with that since they can cleanse the DoT effect, which reduces a lot of the power of those specs, but Sorcs are kinda SoL unless they're deep heal and keep on top of cleansing. A DPS Sorc has an advantage in their shields, pre-shielding goes a long way towards victory against Pyrotech/AS. Alpha strike also confers an advantage; whoever gets the first drop usually wins.

 

Dante " Where do you get your weed man " Mr. Cheazle " I get my weed from you Dante"

 

No, but seriously we DO not win a 1v1 Fight with a Mara, Mara's are meant to be our bane, they are literally built to destroy us and if they aren't destroying you, your either the best sorc/sage on your server and I would like to see some pvp videos or play with really bad maras, On my server we have good mara's and sents and they faceroll anything except assasins give them trouble and a couple Juggs/Guardians. Op's however I agree with you but any class can kill an Op's if they don't get the opener and aren't stealthed.

[mikedee]

I both have a Sorc and I run with a valor rank 85+ Sorc who kicks all kinds of *** all the time. I've seen Marauders jump on him when he's at 75% and he beats them, from full to dead, without any outside help. And these aren't freshly 50 Mara's either; these are geared guys who have been pvping almost as long as my Sorc friend has.

 

He's a very skillful player and most Sorcs....aren't. I can count on one hand the number of Sorc's I've seen utilize kiting and LoS when they are fighting an opponent who has more life than them. If you try and face-tank a Marauder, then yes, you'll die, but with the exception of defending a Voidstar door, each WZ has plenty of LoS obstacles to use in order to keep a Mara at bay. If you expect to stand toe-to-toe with a Marauder and survive, then you deserve the quick death you get. But if you're constantly moving, utilizing Force Slow, timing your Overload after the Charge, and being careful with how you use your CC, it's very possible for a Sorc to destroy a Marauder.

 

But, again, most Sorcs don't think like that. Most Sorcs I see approach pvp like it's another kind of pve and don't adjust their play accordingly.

 

It is possible. Not like you first said the sorc will easily win. It definitely depends on the mar also. Bad mars can be facerolled by everyone like bad sorcs. Funny you know a guy that is good...Equal skilled mars roll all sorcs unless we can get lucky and use the map to kite them.

 

EVERY CLASS ATM IS BUILT TO COUNTER SAGES. A few of us just make the class look good. There is multiple high skilled players playing sorc/sage. It really doesn't show what the average player can do with the class.

 

About that whole section you had with 1v1 you are totally off also. You will never get a good ops out of stealth first and therefore will not beat a good one. As a sage/sorc you will not beat a good mar 1v1 either. Maybe in a wz where you can catch them with their cd's down(same with ops). But in a real 1v1 nah... Juggs have been the bane of sorcs/sages for a long time. They can counter everything we do and if they are geared and skilled it will be a frustrating experience.

[CRNphg]

Depends on which spec the mara is aswell.

 

I can't remember the name of the subclass but one I could beat in a 1v1 with my lightning specced sorc and another with a different subclass I was extremely lucky if I got him down to 20%.

In warzones like voidstar I usually just bounce them away untill they target someone else (if available).

Madness spec would have more chance to beat them tho. Not as static as lightning and not as interruptable.

[Quor]

Dante " Where do you get your weed man " Mr. Cheazle " I get my weed from you Dante"

 

No, but seriously we DO not win a 1v1 Fight with a Mara, Mara's are meant to be our bane, they are literally built to destroy us and if they aren't destroying you, your either the best sorc/sage on your server and I would like to see some pvp videos or play with really bad maras, On my server we have good mara's and sents and they faceroll anything except assasins give them trouble and a couple Juggs/Guardians. Op's however I agree with you but any class can kill an Op's if they don't get the opener and aren't stealthed.

 

Ok, so what classifies a 1v1 fight here? We talking a duel where everyone has CD's up and you're in an open field with no LoS anywhere and the Mara starts the fight standing next to you? Or are we talking an actual pvp environment where you have obstacles to use to break LoS and kite the Mara with, where he starts off running at you from a distance (or at the worst, blowing Camo to get up to you before you open on him)?

 

Because if it's the former scenario, yeah, you're probably boned. So I guess if a Mara jumps you in between nodes on Alderaan or Novare and there's no LoS around and all of your CC's are on CD then you're probably screwed. Otherwise, you have plenty of options available, both as Madness and Lightning. Both specs get some kind of root effect you can use; Madness gets the ever-valuable instant WW and lower CD on Electrocute while Lightning gets a lower CD on Force Speed as well as the blind effect when bubble pops. Combined with Force Slow and well-timed use of Overload it's not hard to keep a Marauder at a distance.

[Adzzy]

It is possible to beat a good marauder as a sorc, but it takes an extended period of time that simply doesn't or shouldn't occur in a warzone, and the moment any external support factor is involved, you lose.

 

A pyrotech, either merc or powertech (especially the latter), a sorc simply can't beat (as someone with both classes, my win record on my sorc is about 5%, i blame mouth breathing, my lose rate on my ptech to a sorc is 0, it simply doesn't happen, it isn't skill, it's the fact i can hit them for their entire life bar in under 10 seconds, and they'd be lucky to kill me in 25.)

 

Juggernauts with the cc immunity after charge shouldn't lose to a sorc if in dps gear.

 

Assassins, yeah lol....

 

Operatives....can be beaten, rarely.

 

Snipers? if los win, if not los, get owned...

 

Whose left...lol

Edited May 3, 2012 by Adzzy

[pathiss]

I both have a Sorc and I run with a valor rank 85+ Sorc who kicks all kinds of *** all the time. I've seen Marauders jump on him when he's at 75% and he beats them, from full to dead, without any outside help.

 

Anyone can beat bad players. I fail to see your point.

 

Put someone equally skilled as your 'friend' on a maurader and the sorc would get eaten for lunch.

[Zellata]

Sorcerer is based on the Mage archetype in most MMO's wearing Light armor and has a wide range of control abilities, Sorcerer are supposed to be at a disadvantage when facing melee burst classes such as Marauder and Operatives but are supposed to be at an advantage when facing tank archetypes.

 

What do you guys think, do Sorcerers have an advantage when facing tank builds?

 

What about other DPS builds, what are Pyro Vanguards?

 

No, we don't have an advantage when facing any builds. Some builds provide for more or less even fights and the rest will just melt a sorc. Currently the dps output of a sorc is way too low to have an advantage over anything but a tank in tank gear, but all tanks run in dps gear so that's a moot point.

[ComeAndSee]

There's maybe 2 good DPS Sages on my server and they play balance. They know how to use their snares, cc's, and roots very effectively to get away.

[LancelotOC]

As a heal specced Sage I find tanks are the easiest to kill. It's the same style as a Madness spec with dotting and kiting, just where we have weaker dots we also have the stronger heals to heal up faster when given the opportunity. You just drag teh fight out.

 

Against a Marauder or an Ops this is near impossible because they have too high a DPS and too many tools to either minimize our kitiing or our healing. It's very hard to kite these classes. You can occasionally get away from an OPS in one piece but from a good Marauder, without outside help, it's extremely unlikely.

 

People keep saying you can kite people by staying outside the 5 melle range but in truth , unless you can run in straight lines and your purpose is to get away, this only reliably works in theory. Just between the server sync issues and you being somewhere else for your attacker and the attacker being somewhere else for you, you're attacked by people who seem out of range.

 

Further if you are kiting and trying to kill someone then at some point you have to face them to DPS or cast force slow. Turning back takes way too much time . I remember in other games you could do commands such as /facenorth or /facesouth so if you were kiting you could immediatly spin around again after attacking someone. Here you could time your DPS dump to your knockback at best. Whereby you'd maybe CC, dump some dots, then use the KB and then kite again.

 

So many people keep mentioning kiting as a way to kill people that it makes me think I'm doing something wrong. I have to maybe do it on paper myself as in game it doesn't seem like a viable option in most of the warzones.

[Adzzy]

There's maybe 2 good DPS Sages on my server and they play balance. They know how to use their snares, cc's, and roots very effectively to get away.

 

due to the design of warzones, balance/madness simply isn't a good wz build, in fact it's downright detrimental due to the nature of the current wzs.

 

Think about it a second, you remove the ability to use any long duration crowd control on a target with very weak dots, and you have a bunch of warzones that often require crowd control in order to consolidate a capture....

[xChroniCx]

Sorcerer is based on the Mage archetype in most MMO's wearing Light armor and has a wide range of control abilities, Sorcerer are supposed to be at a disadvantage when facing melee burst classes such as Marauder and Operatives but are supposed to be at an advantage when facing tank archetypes.

 

What do you guys think, do Sorcerers have an advantage when facing tank builds?

 

What about other DPS builds, what are Pyro Vanguards?

 

This is exactly correct, Sorcerors damage isn't negated by tank shields like melee classes that do physical damage are. The problem is noone plays tanks so the rock paper sciossor chain is broken.

[LancelotOC]

Good point, I could see all this working if DOTS didnt break CC.

 

This is also why Devs should not balance pvp on rock paper scizzor. The whole thing is based on population and gamers will always pick the burstiest classes. If Rock is the burstiest Scizzor is twice as screwed because anyone on the fence about playing Paper will play Rock.

 

This then means you have to make them all the same burst. If you make them all the same burst you might as well make them all the same survivability because gamers, in the absence of a clear burst choice, will go for longevity.

 

So just balance every class for one on one and be done with it. The rock, paper, scizzor balancing style is a pipe dream.

Edited May 3, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Zellata]

Good point, I could see all this working if DOTS didnt break CC.

 

This is also why Devs should not balance pvp on rock paper scizzor. The whole thing is based on population and gamers will always pick the burstiest classes. If Rock is the burstiest Scizzor is twice as screwed because anyone on the fence about playing Paper will play Rock.

 

This then means you have to make them all the same burst. If you make them all the same burst you might as well make them all the same survivability because gamers, in the absence of a clear burst choice, will go for longevity.

 

Not quite. You gust need to make sure that the squishiest class has the best burst ("glass cannon" type), the class with best defensive CDs has the lowest burst (tank type), and main healer class has either average burst+low defense or average defense+low burst in addition to their heals. Everybody else falls in-between those extremes.

 

Currently SWTOR is making the same mistake RIFT did - they gave awesome defense and equally awesome burst to the same class and cut down burst of the squishiest class.

 

So just balance every class for one on one and be done with it. The rock, paper, scizzor balancing style is a pipe dream.

 

Rock, paper, scizzors can be done and has been done successfully in Aion for example. BW doesn't want to use that balancing method though (I am pretty sure they even mentioned that somewhere).

[exphryl]

I dunno, Sorc's have a very forgiving resource system. Be hard to buff their damage while keeping it so they never have to stop....

[Cempa]

I dunno, Sorc's have a very forgiving resource system. Be hard to buff their damage while keeping it so they never have to stop....

 

Thats only hybrid, if you play 31 of either trees you burn through force.

 

31 shared actually has a negative resource regen -meaning you are always losing- while 31 mid has a neutral.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Cempa

[Khoraji]

A skilled sorcerer will destroy a marauder? Seriously? What game have you been playing? YOu shouldnt talk about things you know nothing of. A marauder rips a sorcs head off atm. Sorcs have nothing agianst any class 1on1. We might have some support function but I doubt it.. You cannot be a sorc player.. you just cant..

 

I think he was talking about GOOD sorcs.

[Zellata]

I dunno, Sorc's have a very forgiving resource system. Be hard to buff their damage while keeping it so they never have to stop....

 

Not really. Both hybrid and madness builds run out of force. Madness runs dry quicker than hybrid though. There is a way to make a hybrid that practically never runs out of force, but at the expense of losing a lot of dps, which is low to begin with, so it's not really a viable option. Problem is that once you are dry your choices are either to get out of combat and regen (which is not likely to happen) or to use consumption that takes out a good chunk of your hp (which is not good when somebody is hitting you) and has a stackable debuff that slows down your natural regen. For all practical purposes you might as well suicide in the middle of the enemy team and respawn - will probably take less time.

Personally, I'd rather have resource system like marauders/sentinels have, i.e. skills that build rage + skills that use rage or something like that - much easier to manage.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Zellata

[Cempa]

You guys should go to the Sorcerer forums we have some of the biggest noobs posting its so funny, some actually claim Sorcerer is OP and can own any one in PvP!

[Odahviin]

I both have a Sorc and I run with a valor rank 85+ Sorc who kicks all kinds of *** all the time. I've seen Marauders jump on him when he's at 75% and he beats them, from full to dead, without any outside help. And these aren't freshly 50 Mara's either; these are geared guys who have been pvping almost as long as my Sorc friend has.

 

He's a very skillful player and most Sorcs....aren't. I can count on one hand the number of Sorc's I've seen utilize kiting and LoS when they are fighting an opponent who has more life than them (or heck, ANY opponent at all). If you try and face-tank a Marauder, then yes, you'll die, but with the exception of defending a Voidstar door, each WZ has plenty of LoS obstacles to use in order to keep a Mara at bay. If you expect to stand toe-to-toe with a Marauder and survive, then you deserve the quick death you get. But if you're constantly moving, utilizing Force Slow, timing your Overload after the Charge, and being careful with how you use your CC, it's very possible for a Sorc to destroy a Marauder.

 

But, again, most Sorcs don't think like that. Most Sorcs I see approach pvp like it's another kind of pve and don't adjust their play accordingly.

 

^This is the difference between a skilled and non skilled the gap is large.

[Serbegorn]

1) I don't see a CM response in your post, perhaps you should use a question mark in your post subject title?

 

2) CMs are the lowest rung of the totem pole in games like this. It's likely the janitor knows more about game mechanics, etc.

[LancelotOC]

CMs probobly only guys at game companies that may actually play the game though.