Premades are responsible for failed MMOs

[Ghamsar]

"Well, bye!" I quit, Premades 1-Me 0

 

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Is there no way to design a game where players can play with each other w/o OP benefits from the synergy between classes?

 

Guarding healers, chain stun locks, friendly pulling, group speed burst,tandem sleep darts,..etc,etc....exploited skills.

 

Is it that hard to see how PvE skills will be abused in PvP?

 

Maybe i should just play FPS's...head shot's kill..EVERYONE..but this Jug+healer taking on 4 dps...is IMO a completely broken and abused model.

 

Excuse me, but aren't more people playing Solo (solo WZ ques) than Group ques(premade)?

 

So PVP devs design PvP where group play trumps all? Seems Bass Ackwards.

 

 

How about tanks can only guard themselves? balance around take less dmg/do less dmg....take more dmg/do more dmg

 

Maybe Healers' Healing should come directly from their own HP...let them have 31 pt skills that give them +500 endurance or 20k HP, but every time that they Heal it comes directly from their pool and they only can heal others, only dmg they do replenishes their own HP. (just a thought)

 

In my view, PvP is broken if 8 random ACs =/= 8 other random ACs

 

I don't exactly know why people say that there shouldn't' be 1 vs 1 balance without synergies, besides their own bias...But I've got too little time to waste on FOTM builds and tag teaming stunlocks.

 

see yall around..for maybe 46 more days. but I don't want to see another 2Jug/2OP healers with 4 assassins or marauders picking up the slack....from the boards, I can see I am not alone. From the ques and quits, i can see that I am not alone.

 

So go ahead and make your snide comments, how everyone from 14 to 60 y/o should be playing in premades to have "fun", or whatever ridiculous justification you have concocted to justify broken. I don't care anymore, i'm out.

[Kontraz]

learn to communicate with your teammates or make friends on your server that you can queu with

[Shevko]

Everyone is given the same tools, how you choose to use them is up to you.

[khouj]

The main reason premades beat pugs is because they have better players.

[Ghamsar]

The main reason premades beat pugs is because they have better players.

 

I love this...yeah "better".

 

Dual stationary healers, healing though dmg....."better" :sigh:

[MisterCad]

didn't u know the P in MMORPG stands for Premade?

Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Rolling-Premade-Groups

 

ps. swtor is not a single player game. deal with it.

[Astarica]

Premades definitely are responsible for creating the APPEARANCE of inequality.

 

I don't actually have a problem with them since I noticed the premade on my side that totally sucked, while most people obviously mentally block out the premade on your side that sucked.

 

That said since MMORPG servers have been stuck at about 2000 max concurrent capacity, there simply isn't enough population to support premade versus premade. I think the solution would be to simply get bigger servers. For example Starcraft 2 has no problem matching up premades versus premades since it doesn't just divide its population into 100+ servers. If it did, you'd have a hard time finding another premade to play against too, but that's why it doesn't do that! If a server had 20000 concurrent capacity, then you can force premade versus premade without worrying about huge queue time, and I'm pretty sure technology is more than comfortable to support this kind of stuff now since you could have 2000 concurrent users more than 10 years ago.

[Shlamorel]

"Well, bye!" I quit, Premades 1-Me 0

 

 

 

Is there no way to design a game where players can play with each other w/o OP benefits from the synergy between classes?

 

Guarding healers, chain stun locks, friendly pulling, group speed burst,tandem sleep darts,..etc,etc....exploited skills.

 

Is it that hard to see how PvE skills will be abused in PvP?

 

Maybe i should just play FPS's...head shot's kill..EVERYONE..but this Jug+healer taking on 4 dps...is IMO a completely broken and abused model.

 

Excuse me, but aren't more people playing Solo (solo WZ ques) than Group ques(premade)?

 

So PVP devs design PvP where group play trumps all? Seems Bass Ackwards.

 

 

How about tanks can only guard themselves? balance around take less dmg/do less dmg....take more dmg/do more dmg

 

Maybe Healers' Healing should come directly from their own HP...let them have 31 pt skills that give them +500 endurance or 20k HP, but every time that they Heal it comes directly from their pool and they only can heal others, only dmg they do replenishes their own HP. (just a thought)

 

In my view, PvP is broken if 8 random ACs =/= 8 other random ACs

 

I don't exactly know why people say that there shouldn't' be 1 vs 1 balance without synergies, besides their own bias...But I've got too little time to waste on FOTM builds and tag teaming stunlocks.

 

see yall around..for maybe 46 more days. but I don't want to see another 2Jug/2OP healers with 4 assassins or marauders picking up the slack....from the boards, I can see I am not alone. From the ques and quits, i can see that I am not alone.

 

So go ahead and make your snide comments, how everyone from 14 to 60 y/o should be playing in premades to have "fun", or whatever ridiculous justification you have concocted to justify broken. I don't care anymore, i'm out.

 

I agree with some of your points... but your post is extremely unorganized in my opinion. It's hard to understand what you're ultimate point is.

 

The title suggests that premades have ruined all MMO's. This is a fair opinion for you to hold, but I don't see how tanks' ability to guard others (an example you give) is related to this at all. Tanks can guard their teammates even if they aren't part of a premade. As a sage, I can use my Force pull on someone who I'm not in a premade with.

 

That is just one example from your post that I don't see how it contributes to your overall point. Are you trying to say that relying on others/class synergy ruins MMOs, or are you saying that premades ruin MMOs? Which is the ultimate problem you have with PvP?

 

I'm sincerely curious and would love to discuss more, I'm just finding it very hard to understand your whether you're upset about premades or the fact that classes do better when they are coupled with other classes.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Shlamorel

[Ghamsar]

Premades definitely are responsible for creating the APPEARANCE of inequality.

 

what about older games like gauntlet? Warrior, wizard, Elf, and Valkyrie.....red,blue, green, yellow

 

did it matter really how many Wars you had, or your team's composition? Nope, pick a toon, and you get a color..play and have fun....if you suck with a Warrior, you'd suck with an Elf.

 

a premade vs PUG in the Gauntlet scenario has exactly what advantage in PvP or 4 vs 4? They communicate and maybe all hit the Elf first? Fine....but the WAR isn't getting shielded by the wizard and taking all the DPS of the PUG group....you catch my drift?

[Ghamsar]

The title suggests that premades have ruined all MMO's. This is a fair opinion for you to hold, but I don't see how tanks' ability to guard others (an example you give) is related to this at all. Tanks can guard their teammates even if they aren't part of a premade.

 

That is just one example from your post that I don't see how it contributes to your overall point. Are you trying to say that relying on others/class synergy ruins MMOs, or are you saying that premades ruin MMOs?

 

the toons of premades work with each other to exploit builds and exploit the synergies that they produce. This makes it where you have to get a group, re-roll, re-spec.

 

you ever run across the fire pits in Hutball, toons getting speed burst, pushed, pulled, grappled from mid to goaline in approx 6 secs flat?

 

How about a couple toons at each turret with DEF CD's/stealth that make it near impossible to kill both in enough time to cap a turret before the 1st one take the speeder back to interrupt cap?

 

While yes...Pugs can do this too, they aren't organized by BUILDs and build synergy. As Healer am I guaranteed to have someone in my PUG group that will guard me....will a solo tank even que?

 

That's why I said that I want to basically remove any and all build synergies. Just solo....take less dmg/deal less dmg...healing is sacrfice (HP Shift, not just endless reservoir)

[Astarica]

what about older games like gauntlet? Warrior, wizard, Elf, and Valkyrie.....red,blue, green, yellow

 

did it matter really how many Wars you had, or your team's composition? Nope, pick a toon, and you get a color..play and have fun....if you suck with a Warrior, you'd suck with an Elf.

 

a premade vs PUG in the Gauntlet scenario has exactly what advantage in PvP or 4 vs 4? They communicate and maybe all hit the Elf first? Fine....but the WAR isn't getting shielded by the wizard and taking all the DPS of the PUG group....you catch my drift?

 

SWTOR has relatively strong counters to focus fire compared to most games so not having communication doesn't hurt you as much as it does in other games. In particular it's probably harmful to focus fire on Marauders and often Tankasins.

 

Usually it's not that your side doesn't know who to focus on first. It's that your side is too weak to begin with.

[Shlamorel]

the toons of premades work with each other to exploit builds and exploit the synergies that they produce. This makes it where you have to get a group, re-roll, re-spec.

 

you ever run across the fire pits in Hutball, toons getting speed burst, pushed, pulled, grappled from mid to goaline in approx 6 secs flat?

 

How about a couple toons at each turret with DEF CD's/stealth that make it near impossible to kill both in enough time to cap a turret before the 1st one take the speeder back to interrupt cap?

 

While yes...Pugs can do this too, they aren't organized by BUILDs and build synergy. As Healer am I guaranteed to have someone in my PUG group that will guard me....will a solo tank even que?

 

That's why I said that I want to basically remove any and all build synergies. Just solo....take less dmg/deal less dmg...healing is sacrfice (HP Shift, not just endless reservoir)

 

I see your point now, thanks for clarifying.

 

I still agree with you on many terms, but I disagree on your proposed solution.

 

As for what I think would work best, I would rather see separate queues for solo vs. premade, and leave build synergies in game. ITo me, this would make for a much more exciting pvp environment than one that allows pre-mades vs. pugs yet has no class synergies.

[cashogy]

why are people crying when you can only queue half a premade? and nothing is stopping you from making your own premade.

 

pvp is a competitive environment. glad to see you leave. getting tired of all the crying that goes on

[Ghamsar]

Usually it's not that your side doesn't know who to focus on first. It's that your side is too weak to begin with.

 

it takes just a few weeks or less at 50 to get full BM..the difference isn't that big after.

 

it's more about having the right builds/ACsin your group....if you don't have a healer, you won't win, if you don't have a guard spammer you won't win....if you don't have the DPS to take out those going after the guarded healer....you probably would still win.

[Ghamsar]

why are people crying when you can only queue half a premade? and nothing is stopping you from making your own premade.

 

pvp is a competitive environment. glad to see you leave. getting tired of all the crying that goes on

 

please stay here and do not go to any other game.....deal?

[The_Bucket]

Just have a guardian disrupt focus fire.. Bad premades have their Guardians/Tanks/Juggs on the FF train... Not using their utility to the best of their advantage. I not only prevent my healers and support classes from taking damage. I make it a nightmare for any DPS class to pull off consistent DPS.

[Ihazcrayon]

Funny, I always thought failed MMO's were responsible for failed MMO's. Don't blame a group of PVP'ers that want to be competitive for a developers shortcomings and arrogance.

 

Oh and because I work odd hours I generally solo queue. Doesn't ruin my experience

Edited May 2, 2012 by Ihazcrayon

[JediDuckling]

"Well, bye!" I quit, Premades 1-Me 0

 

 

 

Is there no way to design a game where players can play with each other w/o OP benefits from the synergy between classes?

 

Guarding healers, chain stun locks, friendly pulling, group speed burst,tandem sleep darts,..etc,etc....exploited skills.

 

Is it that hard to see how PvE skills will be abused in PvP?

 

Maybe i should just play FPS's...head shot's kill..EVERYONE..but this Jug+healer taking on 4 dps...is IMO a completely broken and abused model.

 

Excuse me, but aren't more people playing Solo (solo WZ ques) than Group ques(premade)?

 

So PVP devs design PvP where group play trumps all? Seems Bass Ackwards.

 

 

How about tanks can only guard themselves? balance around take less dmg/do less dmg....take more dmg/do more dmg

 

Maybe Healers' Healing should come directly from their own HP...let them have 31 pt skills that give them +500 endurance or 20k HP, but every time that they Heal it comes directly from their pool and they only can heal others, only dmg they do replenishes their own HP. (just a thought)

 

In my view, PvP is broken if 8 random ACs =/= 8 other random ACs

 

I don't exactly know why people say that there shouldn't' be 1 vs 1 balance without synergies, besides their own bias...But I've got too little time to waste on FOTM builds and tag teaming stunlocks.

 

see yall around..for maybe 46 more days. but I don't want to see another 2Jug/2OP healers with 4 assassins or marauders picking up the slack....from the boards, I can see I am not alone. From the ques and quits, i can see that I am not alone.

 

So go ahead and make your snide comments, how everyone from 14 to 60 y/o should be playing in premades to have "fun", or whatever ridiculous justification you have concocted to justify broken. I don't care anymore, i'm out.

 

although this seems unfair for friends and guild members that want to group up and pvp together i totaly agree that premades ruin and balance of pvp warzones.

you should not be able to group up in groups for warzones to que up should be single que'ing only,this would be defunatly soemthing myself and proberly about 70% of the pvp population would love to see

[-Fal-]

People playing with their friends ruins everygame! Especially MMOs.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Nerfs brought on by whiny players that don't understand game mechanics, and automatically assume that it is the other players class that is overpowered and responsible for them losing rather than their own inability to compensate for bad strategy is what makes MMOs fail

[fongers]

That's why I said that I want to basically remove any and all build synergies. Just solo....take less dmg/deal less dmg...healing is sacrfice (HP Shift, not just endless reservoir)

 

So the solution to failed games in a genre that emphasizes multiplayer gameplay and community is to... remove any advantage granted by intelligent coordination between players or use of teamwork to achieve a common goal? O.o

 

The problem isn't that MMOs allow premades to dominate through superior organization and coordination. It's that they match those premades up against groups of random strangers. Bioware just needs to find a way to ensure more even competition by matching premades against each other, either in an exclusive premade PvP bracket or making sure that every premade that enters a WZ has a premade on the other side to counter it.

[cashogy]

please stay here and do not go to any other game.....deal?

 

why so premades dont ruin that game too? any game where you can pvp as a group is going to have premades. it is called competition, and it is the entire point of pvp.

 

 

can you imagine how much whining there would be if you could queue a full group of 8? man, the forums would probably implode :|

[thepilk]

what about older games like gauntlet? Warrior, wizard, Elf, and Valkyrie.....red,blue, green, yellow

 

did it matter really how many Wars you had, or your team's composition? Nope, pick a toon, and you get a color..play and have fun....if you suck with a Warrior, you'd suck with an Elf.

 

a premade vs PUG in the Gauntlet scenario has exactly what advantage in PvP or 4 vs 4? They communicate and maybe all hit the Elf first? Fine....but the WAR isn't getting shielded by the wizard and taking all the DPS of the PUG group....you catch my drift?

 

Setting aside the fact you just said the game would benefit from being more like a game 27 years old of a different genre:

I guess Ill be that guy...

you DID have more synergy in gauntlet with a mixed team.

 

Warrior- highest damage, slowest speed, weakest magic

Elf- Fastest footspeed, medium damage, medium magic

Valk- Medium Damage, somewhat quick speed, best armor

Wizard- highest magic, strong projectile, bad armor, kinda slow

 

So a mix of them allows best strategic use of your magics and the ability to optimize your group arrangment for soaking damage among the team and speeding to certain spots (which in turn lets you use range to get faster rate of fire). In a "PVP" situation there would actually be massive advantages to having certain team combinations.

 

That aside, premade groups are the intended play structure. The game is built around team dynamic and synergy as the core combat strategy, they arent "responsible for failed mmos" they are the people playing mmos the way they are designed to be played. The people going against the grain are the ones who try to be professional solo-que'ers.

[Astarica]

I always found it funny people complain about class compositions. FOTM rerollers aren't limited to just premades. I see plenty of Marauders/Tankasins not in premades, and if those guys are actually played by good players, they hurt just as much as the same class played by someone in a premade. Yeah premade might have a healer, but if you got 6 Marauders+Tankasins, you don't even need a healer. In fact premades seem less likely to go for the truly outrageous teams like 8 Mara+Tankasin which is actually one of the strongest team out there since everyone there can beat almost anybody 1on1 and you don't need heals when all your enemies are dead in 20 seconds.

[sauerkraut]

Wonder why this game has not Team chat like the old SW had, big help for PUGs.