Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[DarthTHC]

Why is it so hard for people to learn how to play an MMO? They have always been about the journey and adventure, not the destination. I do feel sorry for people on a dead server but I don't feel sorry for them if why choose to stay on it. What are some LFD players gonna do if it's server only and not instant teleport? What if they still have to, gasp, walk?

 

Why do you think it's fun to walk... in a game?

[Skirata_Kal]

I was replying to a poster who had a question. I gave an answer. I'm sorry you found that insulting since I never actually stated what the pro-LFD side looks like. I simply said "let the evidence speak for itself".

 

As for the entire debate history of this subject, could care less.

 

Again, as I said before, my sarcastic 'insulting is so mature' remark was aimed at a group, not you specifically. I'm sorry if you took that so personally. And yes, I could have used better wording to make that more clear.

 

And what was more effective in your pursuit of improved products or services? Crying on a forum, or writing directly to the company or business, or perhaps paying their office a visit. I know which has been more effective for me, and that involves calling the company in question to complain, to write them a letter, or visit the store to lodge a complaint. "I quit' threads on the interwebs are about as useful as...teats on a boar as the saying goes.

 

'Crying on a forum'? lol You just love trolling. Ok, I'm game. Generally, in today's day and age, I find writing a snail mail letter to a company useless. I generally use the phone first unless they have a good online tool then I'll sometimes use that. Because of my schedule, I rarely can make an in-person visit and I rarely, if ever, consider it worth my while to take a day off to do it. Whichever format, I use, I explain the problem to them and give them an opportunity to fix said problem. If said problem isn't resolved, I then take my business elsewhere. The funny thing is that some of the best offers I've ever recieved have been offered while making the cancellation phone call. That's RL though.

 

This is a computer game. If I try to make an in-person visit to Bioware to lodge a complaint, I'll probably, in the very least, find myself escorted out by security no matter how calm and mature I am about lodging said complaint (for very understandable reasons). A snail mail would be useless and a waste of paper...which leads to a topic we should avoid on this forum lol. A phone call is an option, but in my experience, calling an MMO's company number usually just gets you referred to their online forums...so here I am!

[Darth_Mordrid]

My post will probly go unnoticed here, but it still needs to be pointed out.

 

First off, everyone in this thread does make pretty good points for and against the LFG tool. But imo these arguements work for large communities.

 

I know we all hate using WoW for an example, but this is a true statement imo and those who play(ed) the game can relate. As a dps in WoW, the cross server LFG tool can take anywhere from 10minutes to an hour depending on the time of day you qued up for a dungeon at end game level 85. Take that and think about a very low community such as SWTOR which is spread out through many servers. Imagine if we already had the cross server LFG tool. With the low population we have, it would still take a dps player over an hour to finally get into a group...at prime time, maybe less but I think you all get the point. And then of course, you have to hope that the group is solid with no bad players that keep pulling or having no ninjas or aholes.

 

I do understand some of the hate on the LFG tool, especially the cross server one. But it actually is needed, moreover I think there are much more people that want a cross server LFG than those who don't. I personally would like to see single server LFG tool as a start, but I know it probably won't be enough, and the ques could take forever more often than being short.

 

Disagree if you want to, but look at the que times for WoW and compare it to what ours would be if we had the cross server tool already.

[Valkirus]

I've already rerolled onto my fourth server not a big deal

Guess what? Even with a cross server LFD tool, you will still be on a dead server.

 

Not a issue with me or others. I will purposely stay on my low pop server if they add a cross server LFG tool. Those who donot want to use it can roll on a high pop server.

[Cerion]

No worries mate...

This happens all the time with my GF, we will be discussing one thing and she will throw an emotional tirade into the conversation and try and totally move off topic when she sees she is wrong.

Its all good.

 

Well, luckily I was neither wrong nor talking to you regarding the topic in question. You just kinda barged in on my conversation with another poster.

But it's a public forum, not much I can do about it. Its all good.

[Valkirus]

My post will probly go unnoticed here, but it still needs to be pointed out.

 

First off, everyone in this thread does make pretty good points for and against the LFG tool. But imo these arguements work for large communities.

 

I know we all hate using WoW for an example, but this is a true statement imo and those who play(ed) the game can relate. As a dps in WoW, the cross server LFG tool can take anywhere from 10minutes to an hour depending on the time of day you qued up for a dungeon at end game level 85. Take that and think about a very low community such as SWTOR which is spread out through many servers. Imagine if we already had the cross server LFG tool. With the low population we have, it would still take a dps player over an hour to finally get into a group...at prime time, maybe less but I think you all get the point. And then of course, you have to hope that the group is solid with no bad players that keep pulling or having no ninjas or aholes.

 

I do understand some of the hate on the LFG tool, especially the cross server one. But it actually is needed, moreover I think there are much more people that want a cross server LFG than those who don't. I personally would like to see single server LFG tool as a start, but I know it probably won't be enough, and the ques could take forever more often than being short.

 

Disagree if you want to, but look at the que times for WoW and compare it to what ours would be if we had the cross server tool already.

 

I did not overlook your post. And you did make some good points. But I had to post a reply to your allmost a hour long que times for LFG runs in WoW. I run in the early mornings and evenings using the LFG/LFR too as dps and my ques times are consistently less then 30 mins. 10 - 20 mins is the norm. Even for Looking for Raid.

[Cerion]

Again, as I said before, my sarcastic 'insulting is so mature' remark was aimed at a group, not you specifically. I'm sorry if you took that so personally. And yes, I could have used better wording to make that more clear.

 

 

 

'Crying on a forum'? lol You just love trolling. Ok, I'm game. Generally, in today's day and age, I find writing a snail mail letter to a company useless. I generally use the phone first unless they have a good online tool then I'll sometimes use that. Because of my schedule, I rarely can make an in-person visit and I rarely, if ever, consider it worth my while to take a day off to do it. Whichever format, I use, I explain the problem to them and give them an opportunity to fix said problem. If said problem isn't resolved, I then take my business elsewhere. The funny thing is that some of the best offers I've ever recieved have been offered while making the cancellation phone call. That's RL though.

 

This is a computer game. If I try to make an in-person visit to Bioware to lodge a complaint, I'll probably, in the very least, find myself escorted out by security no matter how calm and mature I am about lodging said complaint (for very understandable reasons). A snail mail would be useless and a waste of paper...which leads to a topic we should avoid on this forum lol. A phone call is an option, but in my experience, calling an MMO's company number usually just gets you referred to their online forums...so here I am!

 

Yes. I think our experiences are similar. I'm just saying, the least effective contact is the company's forum. Obviously few of us could journey to Austin to pay BW a visit. By that, I meant going to Best Buy or your local restaurant to complain about service in person.

 

I've read a few posts on this forum, however, where people have called BW and gotten a great response from CS.

 

And I'm not dismissing CONSTRUCTIVE posts on forums either. Those who post their suggestions and complaints in constructive ways are looked at. But we were addressing (in an OT way I guess) the effectiveness of "I quit" threads.

 

Anyway...it's OT. And I don't want to be reprimanded for going OT again!

[Evangolis]

It's a very poor attitude to have, coming into an MMO. I'd rather play with everyone I can in the game, than wall myself into a server and scream about how evil those outside it were.

 

What is honestly poor here is possibly your grasp of what cross server LFG tools do to all communities from all servers. You may feel free to play with as many as you wish. No one would deny you that. However, I like knowing the people I play with. I also like to know that players will be held accountable if they choose to behave like an arse when they group with others. When players come from all over into groups then those who choose to misbehave can do so at their leisure with very little repercussions. Your vision is admirable but not as practical as you may hope. The 800 pound MMO Gorilla is a huge victim of this very concept.

[Darth_Mordrid]

I did not overlook your post. And you did make some good points. But I had to post a reply to your allmost a hour long que times for LFG runs in WoW. I run in the early mornings and evenings using the LFG/LFR too as dps and my ques times are consistently less then 30 mins. 10 - 20 mins is the norm. Even for Looking for Raid.

 

Thank you, and I did state that it can be shorter, but even so I think you get the point that even 10-20min que as a dps in WoW is good due to high population, while in SWTOR it would still take forever even with the cross server tool due to such low population. I am not griping or asking for the feature, just pointing out that it might be necessary for SWTOR to have it. Cheers.

[Cerion]

Tarka, is that you? I just had a vision.

[Skirata_Kal]

I did not overlook your post. And you did make some good points. But I had to post a reply to your allmost a hour long que times for LFG runs in WoW. I run in the early mornings and evenings using the LFG/LFR too as dps and my ques times are consistently less then 30 mins. 10 - 20 mins is the norm. Even for Looking for Raid.

 

That was similar to my experience before I quit WoW (shortly after Cata release). Usually closer to 20 minutes but on rare occasions as much as 40. Far shorter than the 1.5 hours to 2 hours it takes to get that last dps for a HM.

[DarthTHC]

What is honestly poor here is possibly your grasp of what cross server LFG tools do to all communities from all servers. You may feel free to play with as many as you wish. No one would deny you that. However, I like knowing the people I play with. I also like to know that players will be held accountable if they choose to behave like an arse when they group with others. When players come from all over into groups then those who choose to misbehave can do so at their leisure with very little repercussions. Your vision is admirable but not as practical as you may hope. The 800 pound MMO Gorilla is a huge victim of this very concept.

 

Could you maybe describe for us what this "accountability" looks like in practice?

[Wolfeisberg]

Could you maybe describe for us what this "accountability" looks like in practice?

 

Being put on ones ignore list. The idea is that the person who needs to be held accountable would eventually be on everyone's list. In theory it should work, but in practice it does not. Perhaps in the EQ days it worked, but since WoW has released, not so much, even during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade days.

[Timesjoke]

I've already rerolled onto my fourth server not a big deal

Guess what? Even with a cross server LFD tool, you will still be on a dead server.

 

Some players have more to do with their time than grind out toon after toon on other servers till they find one with an active population. The cross server tool eliminates the need to roll new toons on several servers because it allows you to use all the toons you make, not just the ones on an active server.

[Skidrowbro]

No worries mate...

This happens all the time with my GF, we will be discussing one thing and she will throw an emotional tirade into the conversation and try and totally move off topic when she sees she is wrong.

Its all good.

 

 

 

Now damn it... stop using logic and facts to mess up his arguments!!! There is just no place for that in this discussion!!

 

Oh ya logic eh. So now players will get trolled in chat for asking for a group because they don't want to use the system. Way to form a community

[Evangolis]

Unless you were part of a pre-launch guild forming it is very doubtful you were able to "choose" your server based on how it "suited them". Most new players knew nothing about the other players on the server they selected or how the population density would be a couple months later.

 

Perhaps some did not know this is very true. However, players normally pick accordingly to play style. Nothing is ever certain when we choose unless we in some way or form have a marvelous insight to the situation.

 

 

The gloom and doom claims about "human debri" being a big problem in LFG tools is completely false. I have used similar tools in other games like WoW and there is no noticeable increase in idiots if you use the LFG tool. Prior to a LFG tool, the majority of the so called "human debri" is the members of the largest guilds who lord over the rest of the community and ninja anything they want because they can get away with it.

 

I'm happy that your experience with cross server LFG tools has been a utopia. However, to say it is the same for all or the saving grace of game play, is a falsehood all in its own. That it has no effect on server communities and in many ways fosters a devil may care attitude is not only false but also misleading.

 

Here in you make my point, if those who "lord" over others join groups to ninja loot or be and arse, simple enough to just not group with them and to make certain the server community knows what they do. Guild size means nothing or has no baring in cross server LFG. You do not have this recourse of action with cross server LFG, UNLESS the ability to report that activity is available...I would wager it would not be.

[Jaxarale]

What is honestly poor here is possibly your grasp of what cross server LFG tools do to all communities from all servers.

You meant: in your opinion... as there are no stats or evidence to support your sensational claims. In fact seeing as the majority of people use it if the tool is available in other games... your opinion that all servers will explode and the game will super nova... seems a bit on the excessive side.

 

You may feel free to play with as many as you wish. No one would deny you that. However, I like knowing the people I play with.

 

Again, the communication process seems to break down... you can group with your buddies... no one is stopping you, so stop trying to keep us from playing how we want.

 

I also like to know that players will be held accountable if they choose to behave like an arse when they group with others. When players come from all over into groups then those who choose to misbehave can do so at their leisure with very little repercussions.

 

So, they will be put in Swtor jail if they are mean or ninja loot? I fail to see the repercussions as the server pops are rotating so fluidly and will triple in that aspect once transfers are open... there is no real way to hold anyone accountable for anything other than reporting them... and you can do that x-server just as easily as on server...

 

Your vision is admirable but not as practical as you may hope.

 

Your vision is admirable but not as practical as you may hope.

See what I did there? I used your own quote to answer your own quote... and quite well I think... funny that huh?

 

Oh ya logic eh. So now players will get trolled in chat for asking for a group because they don't want to use the system. Way to form a community

 

I honestly see no community in the /general chat that is fleet on the servers I play on... and where did this pressing NEED for a community come from... there is no community inherent in an MMO... its just massive, multi-player and online...

If it were a MMOC... Massive Multiplayer Online Community... then you might have a leg to stand on in your "community" argument?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jaxarale

[Calsetes]

My thoughts on an LFG tool:

 

1. Cross-server? Hell no - it's bad enough having to deal with some of the seedier element of your own server without dealing with that of other servers. Overall, my server is pretty nice. We're respectful, we're generally cool people, and we like it like that. Introduce a few.... annoying jerks into that mix, and I feel it'll "spoil" some of the better server communities out there. I'm a pretty big supporter of the theory that if you surround yourself with people of a certain mindset, you start to show traits of that mindset yourself.

 

2. Loot-screwing. If Jerk X is helping Group Y fight through Flashpoint Z, he starts hitting Need on everything. Yeah, he - as a Gunslinger - really NEEDS that BoP Consular headgear that's non-moddable. That plays into the cross-server bit where it's more likely to happen if you won't ever see them again, and could potentially give you a bad name (should someone have the same name as you.)

 

3. Overall, though, it could be good if it were implemented well. And let the "opt-in option" default to off, because while I may have trouble finding a group for a Heroic 4 right now, I don't want to immediately jump ship to a new server to do it quick because I forgot to toggle the "yes, give me random load times" box. I'll turn it on if I need it turned on.

[Evangolis]

Could you maybe describe for us what this "accountability" looks like in practice?

Yes I would indeed care to. Accountability is having the option to advise your fellow server occupants that said person joins groups to "Ninja" loot, to create problems during runs, to waste the play time of others. So those that are aware can make a choice not to group with that player and save themselves the pain in the arse experience they may be in store for.

 

A server community will police its self to an extent if given the ability to do so. When players are outed for the things they willfully do and are isolated due to that activity they either are forced to rethink how they play or move along. That is the accountability process in practice.

[Mallorik]

I think peoples hate for cross server lfg tools are really unfounded. I played eq1 since it released and for 6 years after, And i have never seen a game since that had server communities as tight.

 

Many things changed that and i think the lfg tool was a very small part.

 

First players changed it, theres alot more people that play mmos than did back in eq1's days or even in vanilla wow and the player base is just different now. People dont stick around for a long time, they hop from game to game and back again, when i went back to wow for cataclysm after not playing for almost two years i was shocked to see how it was nearly impossible to hold together a 10 man raid group for over a month much less a 25man.

 

Second, Guilds changed it, back in the early days of eq1 there were no "uber guilds" as they came to be called, there were alot of small guilds and they worked together to do raids that took 40-80 people. Then the uber guilds came and everything could be done within your own guild, shutting out the rest of the server.

 

Third, Content changed, it doesnt take 40 people to do anything anymore, and in swtor its gotten even more exagerated because you can do almost anything in the game with 8 people, so even if you arent doing something with your guild youre only doing something with 7 other people and you dont get to know the rest of the server.

 

So now i think cross server lfg tools are a necessary evil to keep servers and games viable, they alow people to play instances that they would rarely be able to play while leveling up, content that was meant for people to experience the full game.

 

And if you dont like it DONT USE IT, if the thought of playing with inexperienced players sickens you , or you dont want to take the chance of grouping with a ninja looter, just shout in chat like you have to do now or wait for guildies to log on.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Mallorik

[Jhayden]

I think the LFG tool should have the option for same server or cross server grouping.

[Wolfeisberg]

Yes I would indeed care to. Accountability is having the option to advise your fellow server occupants that said person joins groups to "Ninja" loot, to create problems during runs, to waste the play time of others. So those that are aware can make a choice not to group with that player and save themselves the pain in the arse experience they may be in store for.

 

A server community will police its self to an extent if given the ability to do so. When players are outed for the things they willfully do and are isolated due to that activity they either are forced to rethink how they play or move along. That is the accountability process in practice.

 

Accept for I have seen it so many times in WoW, where someone was trying to tell everyone on the server that they ninja looted, ect, only to find out, more often then not the accused was actually innocent. I hardly know anybody anymore that listens to the crap that people say about other players on general chat anymore.

[Jaxarale]

So those that are aware can make a choice not to group with that player and save themselves the pain in the arse experience they may be in store for.

 

group leader: I hear xxx is a ninja looter we shouldn't invite him.

group member 2: I haven't heard that, and im sick of waiting for the last 2 hours to run this... just invite him.

group member 3: IDC... lets just do this.

group leader: Ok, we will see.

Supposed Ninja: No, Im not a ninja, dude was mad cause I tapped his GF IRL and is spreading rumors..

Run goes fine with no problems...

 

The point to the story is... I wont believe what ANYONE says about ANYONE else in a game until I have seen it for myself... your deluded if you honestly think that self policing works anymore... yes it did in WoW back in Vanilla and BC because there were maybe 200 people on a side for each server... everyone knew everyone else.

This is no longer the case... its like saying: no I wont take a cruise to Australia because in 1492 everyone knew the world was flat...

 

The reality of the MMO game is changed... either change with it or step out of the way so we can play as we want to.

 

Accept for I have seen it so many times in WoW, where someone was trying to tell everyone on the server that they ninja looted, ect, only to find out, more often then not the accused was actually innocent. I hardly know anybody anymore that listens to the crap that people say about other players on general chat anymore.

 

Exactly my point!

+1

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jaxarale

[Timesjoke]

 

I'm happy that your experience with cross server LFG tools has been a utopia. However, to say it is the same for all or the saving grace of game play, is a falsehood all in its own. That it has no effect on server communities and in many ways fosters a devil may care attitude is not only false but also misleading.

 

Here in you make my point, if those who "lord" over others join groups to ninja loot or be and arse, simple enough to just not group with them and to make certain the server community knows what they do. Guild size means nothing or has no baring in cross server LFG. You do not have this recourse of action with cross server LFG, UNLESS the ability to report that activity is available...I would wager it would not be.

 

 

Clearly you missed my point so I will try again:

 

Prior to the LFG tool in WoW the most common abusers were the members of the biggest guilds. They could treat other people poorly and ninja anything they wanted because they controlled the server completely.

 

If they wanted to ninja something and you complained, you had a hundred of their guildies all spamming that you were the one who tried to ninja, not their buddy. Bad bahavior and such actually went way, way down after LFG was started because the few elitists lost their stranglehold over the servers.

 

Nobody should be forced to to-the-line to a tiny number of elitists just to experience some of the endgame material.

 

 

 

Having a "bad rep" on a server only means a lot of people said something bad about you, not that you actually did what they say.

[DarthTHC]

Being put on ones ignore list. The idea is that the person who needs to be held accountable would eventually be on everyone's list. In theory it should work, but in practice it does not. Perhaps in the EQ days it worked, but since WoW has released, not so much, even during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade days.

 

WoW let you put people on other servers on your ignore list. Its LFG tool would not pair you with people on your ignore list.

 

One might assume (probably erroneously but still) that BioWare would include features from modern LFG tools in their implementation.