Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[ferroz]

Maybe you should read the dev tracker. All your issues have been addressed. Just not with a x-server system.

a single server tool does not fix the problem. Just like in rift:

• it won't help low pop servers at all
  
• it won't help decent* pop servers off peak times
  
• it won't help decent* pop servers for low levels
  

 

*as in: everything but the 1 or 2 highest population servers.

Edited May 2, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

The main problem here is that you cant explain to someone who doesnt care about server communities why a set feature will harm that community. It been explained many times in this thread, but people still ask. blinders

sure you can... you just have to use non-circular logic.

 

It hurts the community therefore it hurts the community, QED ... isn't really a valid explanation as to how it hurts the community.

 

Nor is "it causes <x negative effect on the community>" a valid explanation, unless you can actually show causation ... and so far, noone has done so.

[Valkirus]

Sure....so they want to play for an hour a day and reach the same as a hardcore gamer.

Dont get me wrong, im not a hardcore gamer at all..i only play 1 or 2 hours a day sometimes i dont play at all..

I really dont understand peeps want the same with less effort because they have a busy life.

 

Did you overlook my point.."Not to the degree hardcore gamers do"...or only see the parts you wanted to see? The LFR tool in WoW lets the casual gamers do the end game content and rewards them with 384 - 390 level gear. Which is a little better than the 378 5 man heroic gear but not as good as the normal Dragon Soul raid gear ( 397 - 403) or the heroic Dragon Soul raid gear ( 403 - 411 ). I am sure this is not that hard to understand..

Edited May 2, 2012 by Valkirus

[Jaxarale]

It's cross server stuff that most people don't want as it ruins the community of a server, like it did in wow.

 

Again, I will ask for proof of your assertion...

Where is it that "most" people dont want LFG? This thread alone is 8 to1 in favor... go back and count them... I did.

Where is the report stating that it ruined WoW?

Where is the dev post saying it ruined WoW?

Where are the annual earnings reports linking LFG to the downfall of a game that still has over 10 million subs?

Where is anything but your bias opinion that it ruined anything?

 

Your biggest problem is you using the all time biggest MMO as the example of a "ruined game" and it still is the most successful with over 10x's the amount of subs that Swtor does... kinda messes up your " it ruined the game" mantra doesn't it?

LOL I bet EA would love to have a "ruined game" by having 10 million subs......

 

The bigger the pool of people, the more anonymouse everyone is. You can't friend someone you will most likely never see again. It's not healthy for an MMO.

 

Yes you can friend them... just like in WoW and Rift... battle net and now battle tag... you can even do dungeons with them cross server by inviting them... your points are completely false and you are woefully misinformed about the mechanics of the games your playing...

 

It hurts the community therefore it hurts the community, QED ... isn't really a valid explanation as to how it hurts the community.

 

Nor is "it causes <x negative effect on the community>" a valid explanation, unless you can actually show causation ... and so far, noone has done so.

 

^This

 

How many times can we do this?

You state that LFG ruins the game, we ask to be shown any proof... anything at all that proves this or even remotely suggests it.

You come back with: It ruins the game because it ruins the community, it ruins the community because it ruins the game."

 

Huh???

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jaxarale

[Cortese]

 

The community in swtor is bad enough as it is, this is just another nail in the coffin.

 

 

The failure of the community and the devs to even acknowledge that WOW has some great features that could be used in SWTOR shows not only the arrogance of the community but also shows how little they care if you play the game or not.

 

Can you imagine walking into any other business and responding to suggestions like this community has?

 

-Hey Walmart id like to suggest you guys open at mightnight the day after thanksgiving like best buy, it really works out well for me and would be completely optional for the people who perfer to come in at 5am...

 

-Screw yourself, if you want a feature like that go shop at best buy then, this isnt best buy!.

 

Just trying to put in perspective how arrogrant this communtiy is, please dont ever complain about empty servers if your unwilling to see optional features put into the game to assist people with limited time.

The servers are empty largely because the die hard star wars fans didnt want "WOWers" playing "their" game. Well most of the wow people are gone back to their "easy" game and now your left with 40 or so near empty serers.

 

enjoy, the truth hurts a bit but at least i was willing to say it instead of pretending.

[Jederix]

Maybe you should read the dev tracker. All your issues have been addressed. Just not with a x-server system.

 

Yet. A single server LFD tool will not solve the issue. X-server will follow soon after (may take a few months). WoW went through the same series of moves until they got the nice tool they have today; SWTOR will learn this lesson as well.

[Cortese]

Appart from the fact we already have a "LFG tool" that most people don't seem to know how to use...

 

It's cross server stuff that most people don't want as it ruins the community of a server, like it did in wow. The bigger the pool of people, the more anonymouse everyone is. You can't friend someone you will most likely never see again. It's not healthy for an MMO.

 

 

Even on a populated server it takes forever to find groups, I have played WOW and used the LFG almost weekly to fill in the empty spots of my groups with my friends.

 

Actually keep the LFG tool out of the game and watch the number of casual subscribers continue to fall, the few that still play the game will enjoy the better "free month offers" and come back please offers.

 

Good idea! This type of stance just continues to bring the game one step closer to free for everyone.

[Valkirus]

^This

 

How many times can we do this?

You state that LFG ruins the game, we ask to be shown any proof... anything at all that proves this or even remotely suggests it.

You come back with: It ruins the game because it ruins the community, it ruins the community because it ruins the game."

 

Huh???

 

Lol! Yeah..we can show with proof like Blizzard is expanding the cross server tool for Looking for Raid even more in thier next expansion which indicates they feel it has been very successful for thier game, while they simply give out opinions based primarly on thier personal experences ( which in many cases I feel are exaggerated ) and hatred for the system. And they will come back with WoW is losing so many subs...etc etc...but ignore the fact Blizzard does not think it has anything to do with thier cross server LFG tool. Blizz is well aware of why they have lost subs and it is based on several factors. But not one of them is the LFG as a major factor.

[ferroz]

And I've also explained why those pro LFD people are wanting the tool so bad. Just by the way they post who would want to group with them. They need to be anonymous

No, we're already 100% anonymous. A tool just removes the waiting part, which is why people are asking for it.

[Jaxarale]

Heck, you can use these very forums to find a server that has a population and a community. Even with X-LFD your dead server will still be a dead server.

 

I have to agree with you here...

The good thing is though... it wont matter if its dead, I will be able to do the content I pay for and want to play no matter if anyone else on my server logs on or not....

 

That is the whole point of the pro LFG side... It allows us to have the choice... your stance is taking away my choice and I do not pay my monthly fee to play the game the way YOU think I should.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jaxarale

[Skidrowbro]

I have to agree with you here...

The good thing is though... it wont matter if its dead, I will be able to do the content I pay for and want to play no matter if anyone else on my server logs on or not....

 

That is the whole point of the pro LFG side... It allows us to have the choice... your stance is taking away my choice and I do not pay my monthly fee to play the game the way YOU think I should.

 

Lol, the last part is funny because it's not me telling you how to play the game. It is part of the genre, you know, the MMO part?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Faeldawn]

sure you can... you just have to use non-circular logic.

 

It hurts the community therefore it hurts the community, QED ... isn't really a valid explanation as to how it hurts the community.

 

Nor is "it causes <x negative effect on the community>" a valid explanation, unless you can actually show causation ... and so far, noone has done so.

 

Your absolutely right and I think people need to stop getting hung up on this, it doesn't hurt the community as such, it just doesn't do anything to help build a community in a relatively new game with players still shuffling around servers looking for permanent homes (rerollers, new players resubers and soon transfers).

 

People quoting WoW need to remeber the game was something like 7 years old before the x-server LFG tool appeared, the communities were well established by this time, in particular the main guilds.

 

Cross server queueing works, but it does nothing to help a community establish itself. Simpy put, it's arguably too early for SWTOR however, many SWTOR servers seem to be devoid of any kind of community so far. There are many arguments as to why this may be the case, playerbase is still new, players moving servers still, a lot of guilds for a small amount of players, limited communal open world zones or the single player game argument. It has also been raised that modern mmorpg's don't generate these types of communities anymore, this to me is a very realistic possibility as the instant gratification generation probably doesn't lend itself well to the old style mmorpg community model.

[Bluetickone]

If BW were to put a lfg for ops and flashpoints, maybe even ranked warzones, then they essentially have made this a single player game. Theres no longer any incentive to join a guild, contribute to the success of others, etcetera.

[ferroz]

Cross server queueing works, but it does nothing to help a community establish itself.

That's not true at all; it does indeed help the game community establish itself; it can certainly help guild communities grow (as long as it has tools that people have been asking for); it can even help server communities grow, if it's implemented in a way that allows people to find and migrate to servers that match what they want out of a community.

 

If BW were to put a lfg for ops and flashpoints, maybe even ranked warzones, then they essentially have made this a single player game.

No, there are multiple players. By definition it's a multiplayer game.

 

Theres no longer any incentive to join a guild, contribute to the success of others, etcetera.

totally false; the reasons for joining a guild remain the same as they have since before WoW was released.. Edited May 2, 2012 by ferroz

[Valkirus]

Simpy put, it's arguably too early for SWTOR however, many SWTOR servers seem to be devoid of any kind of community so far.

 

I donot think it is too early. I think the issue BioWare has is from a technical side. But it is a feature which if it is delayed too long..they will lose a lot of subs. Time is not a luxury they have nowsdays. Too much competition.

[MasterKayote]

Actually the main problem is that there is no community...

 

Yup, and thats maybe why Bioware should work on getting them back together instead of sweeping the problem under a rug? Also speak for yourself, the community isnt there on some of the servers, mine is just fine.

 

Sadly those days are LONG gone... and we must move forward with what the MMO gaming community is now...

 

No, those days are gone in WoW. Ill give you one guess as to why? I see a very good community here as a matter of fact, I recognize names, good players, crafters, even what some of them look like. Not to mention my ****-list of players I will never group up with again. My guild has multiple "go to" people from different guilds we have met through this dreaded "LFG spamming" (dun dun duuuun!) and I have a few names of my own as well. Havent seen that since TBC and its extremely nice and refreshing to be part of that again ... something id almost forgotten being one of the best parts of what an MMO is supposed to be like.

 

Yeah, my server is fairly populated with 80-120 people on fleet so the population definitely helps. And I do realize some servers are nothing short of dead, even at peak times, that have no community ... but maybe you should be moving to have Bioware fix your population issues rather than implement some artificial fix that (A) doesnt fix the majority of the problems associated with low populations (only the childish need for instant gratification) and (B) sacrifices all the related benefits those of us against it like to have as part of the community we play with.

 

Ignoring the issues brought on by x-server isnt going to help either side. And yes, they are real issues ... unless some of you want to claim that all of us just had a secret meeting and came up with the same reasons against it, and that the almost daily threads/posts in WoW are figments of our imagination (which hilariously, some of you are). Anyone? No. Aright then, how about we start discussing some ways to fix populations, give players incentive to group up, and push for a tool that removes the need to spam at the fleet without sacrificing what community the game already has?

[Jaxarale]

It is part of the genre, you know, the MMO part?

 

I agree, and by me not having anyone to group with because of low server pops, a LFG tool will allow me to have that... I can actually participate in Multiplayer aspect of an MMO even though I am on a server that doesn't have a community and there is no other way to experience that aspect of the MMO except for using a LFG...

 

You railing against the use of this tool are one of those how is attempting to stop my ability to play the MMO as it is intended... as a Multiplayer game.

 

I am getting lost on your point, it seems you are just making my point for me every time you post.

 

I and many other are not experiencing anything remotely close to the multiplayer aspect of the genre... that is why we are asking for the LFG... so we can actually group with people and do the content that is intended for the "Multiplayer" part of the MMO.

 

duh?

 

Also speak for yourself, the community isnt there on some of the servers, mine is just fine.

 

I was and will always only speak for myself, this is why I say, "I think" or "to me" It is awesome that your server has a community that you and a few buddies can experience, I want that too. But as you so eloquently pointed out... only a few servers have this type of thing. The vast majority do not have the pops to sustain it.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jaxarale

[Valkirus]

If BW were to put a lfg for ops and flashpoints, maybe even ranked warzones, then they essentially have made this a single player game. Theres no longer any incentive to join a guild, contribute to the success of others, etcetera.

 

Well...get ready for cross server Looking for Group for PVP. It is coming soon. I wanted to bring you up to date.

[DarthTHC]

If BW were to put a lfg for ops and flashpoints, maybe even ranked warzones, then they essentially have made this a single player game. Theres no longer any incentive to join a guild, contribute to the success of others, etcetera.

 

Or we could join guilds for reasons other than to work around the game's pathetic lack of quality of life features. You know, the GOOD reasons to join a guild? Like, you like them? And want to do similar stuff on a similar schedule?

[Jaxarale]

Ignoring the issues brought on by x-server isnt going to help either side. And yes, they are real

issues

 

Again, I ask for just one ounce of proof or anything that can be remotely construed as proof...

 

Your assertion that the people on the WOW boards is proof of anything but a vocal minority QQ fest is ludicrous at best.

 

10 million people still play that game... 1.2 million play Swtor... trying to say WoW has been ruined by anything is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard of.

It may have been ruined for YOU...

but I will use your own words... "Speak for yourself"

 

I just went and skimmed the first 15 pages of the WOW general chat thread... there is not a single topic that comes close to a discussion about LFG. Your claim that your "proof" is on the WoW boards seems to be a bit off my friend, perhaps a different misrepresentation of the truth will serve your purpose better?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jaxarale

[GalacticKegger]

Unless you were part of a pre-launch guild forming it is very doubtful you were able to "choose" your server based on how it "suited them". Most new players knew nothing about the other players on the server they selected or how the population density would be a couple months later.

 

The gloom and doom claims about "human debri" being a big problem in LFG tools is completely false. I have used similar tools in other games like WoW and there is no noticable increase in idiots if you use the LFG tool. Prior to a LFG tool, the majority of the so called "human debri" is the members of the largest guilds who lord over the rest of the community and ninja anything they want because they can get away with it.

You are correct, there is no noticable increase in idiots if you use a LFG tool - same server or Xserver. But the LFG tool does make them easier to find. In the same breath it also makes finding great groups easier. It's just a tool, not an attitude.

 

I use the current LFG tool, and while it isn't exactly intuitive it does work well - WHEN PEOPLE USE IT. But many don't because they want one click to open the interface, one click to select a FP/range of FPs from a pulldown & it's done. They don't care where the players come from. The new LFG tool is heading that way, so I'm anxious to see how it works.

 

My only concern with a Xserver LFG tool is this: the easier and faster it is to group up & rifle through content, the easier and faster it is to gear up & rifle through content. WoW had a hard time with this because they just couldn't generate new content and tweener tier sets fast enough to keep up with how quickly players were farming emblems and trading them in for gear. It's primary function became one of a power leveling tool for max level players.

 

Cata was a great example. Our server-first level 85 did it in 3 days. So the only thing that remained after a week for many was end game which was mostly grinding dungeons, then grinding heroics, grinding Firelands (yuck), then gearing for 10s, etc. It's no wonder so many of the boss mechanics and fights began feeling like retreads of older content. Fortunate for Blizz they had 6 years worth of released content to lean on. A luxury any new MMO does not have.

 

I can see the potential cries of players in this game complaining there's not enough content to support a Xserver LFG tool for this very reason. And it may well become a game breaker for power levelers, which won't hurt the bottom line much because the game was not designed for them. I think the challenge any MMO faces this early in its life cycle is to find a way to make it quick & easy, just not too quick & easy.

Edited May 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Jaxarale]

My only concern with a Xserver LFG tool is this: the easier and faster it is to group up and rifle through content, the easier and faster it is to gear up. WoW had a hard time with this because they just couldn't generate new content and tweener tier sets fast enough to keep up with how quickly players were farming emblems and trading them in for gear. It's primary function became one of a power leveling tool for max level players.

 

This is the only legit point I have seen in this entire thread as to the negative a LFG tool can bring.

Kudos to you sir and thank you for bringing a point of view that is tangible to the table and not the same old... "it will destroy the community" crap spouted by so many.

 

I honestly have nothing to debate with the above issue, I have seen it and experienced it myself in WoW. I have seen tons of threads on the lack of content and the ease in which you can burn through it and also the complaints of not having anything to "tide us over" till the next big content patch. I myself have started some of them over the years and been involved in most of them.

 

All I can hope is that Swtor continues to put out content every couple months and they augment existing content with events such as the plague daily's.

[Jederix]

You underestimate the impact that 6-figure bonus checks have on executive decision-making. Executives in publicly traded companies are usually bonused at least in part on stock price. Server merges will cause the stock price to drop. This will impact executive bonuses.

 

The math is really, really simple. Server merge = lower executive bonuses. It won't happen any time soon.

 

Server mergers are a self-fulfilling prophecy. As soon as they start, haters run to forums everywhere decrying the death of the game. New people see this, think "That game is going under, they are merging servers already" and they don't bother to try it for themselves. Game dies.

 

I know it's fun to "Stick it to the man" like you tried to do in your post, but it is not why mergers are a bad idea. We can both agree, however, that there will be no mergers.

[Jederix]

Actually, we know that is faulty logic, not strong logic as you imply. By introducing that tool, one greatly limits the availability of people outside the tool, first by assumption, secondly by determination. In short, the argument "just don't use it" is a fine representation of the short sightedness of those in favor of such. It will, by its very introduction, eliminate the ability to "not use it".

 

While I find your attempts to show us how intelligent you think you are mildly amusing, can we stop with all this. If you want to argue against the tool, do it. Other people disagree with you, which seems to be an issue that you have.

 

Your opinion is your opinion. Coming across as some intellectual douchebag does not make your opinions any more fact than those whose opinions do not mesh with yours.

 

These tools are coming. Same server will be first. It will help, but be unsuccessful. Then x-server will come, and it will be hugely successful and used by a good portion of the playerbase. Stawman arguments, logical fallacies, and whatevever other mumbo-jumbo you want to throw around to appear intelligent aside.

[KendrickX]

The whole "LFG Tool Hate" is bull. Think about present "Warzones Tool". It's awesome. If a server is populated, you are one button press from a PVP match. And you can do anything while waiting for the match. We need the same button for FPs and such. Just with more complicated menus. And cross-server. And we need it NOW. Because the game is dying.

 

Also, we need cross-server GTN. Stat.

 

And don't tell me about "server community". You want community? Create a guild. I want to play. Not to cry in general chat.

 

Of course, server mergers would be much better. But it looks like they are out of the question for PR reasons.

Edited May 2, 2012 by KendrickX