Noteworthy Characters - Was There Ever a Light Sided Sith?

[Temeluchus]

Darth Malgus would, i'd say, be the closest to this.

 

He did care for the troops he lead, he respected aliens and forged alliances with them. He was cruel as a sith should be, but definitely not to the point of pointless slaughter .

 

Malgus is in no way a LS Sith, he has a different vision for the Empire and a more welcoming attitude towards aliens, but he is not even close to being LS.

 

Lets see, he is fueled by and gets stronger with rage,anger and hate(unquestionable dark side emotions),killed his wife because his love for her made him weak, while he admits that the Jedi are powerful and understand the Force a bit he thinks they are fools because of their use of the LS and how it causes them to stagnate, and oh yeah, he sacked Coruscant and the friggin Jedi Temple.

 

At most, you can say Malgus is a unique Sith because of his progressive views and acceptance of aliens and that he is also a rarity among Sith because he conducts himself with and values,honor.

[Colyer]

Darth Praven was dutiful and honor bound, only when his master gave a direct order did he inflict suffering on those he did not wish to harm.

 

I'd say that puts him at least in the gray, if not light.

 

That's from the JK story, yes? Cause I'd barely qualify him as a Sith, since he can be quite easily redeemed.

[Captain_Zone]

That's from the JK story, yes? Cause I'd barely qualify him as a Sith, since he can be quite easily redeemed.

 

Praven is actually an Old School warrior from an Old School warrior family. They all believe in Honor and Integrity above all else. He serves Angral until he realizes that Angral's orders are dishonorable. He expects to die at the hands of the Knight, but then swears to make amends for his part in his former master's deeds.

[OldVengeance]

I have a hard time taking Praven seriously when he says that. He's the first Sith Lord to ever demonstrate devotion to honor or integrity, so him implying that the "true" Sith have always been that way is a stretch to me.

 

He may be the most honorable Sith ever encountered but he's not exactly the brightest. Even if one were to assume he's been misled about the Jedi ways AND the Sith ways (he all but openly admits he prefers peace, so I question how closely he paid attention to the Sith code) he accuses the Jedi of having "a lust for revenge that will destroy the galaxy" even though he was in the same conversation when Darth Angral says "My son's death will be avenged on the entire Republic. Millions will die because of you."

 

Moreover, I'd say that he's a "grey" character at best. He's not really "Lightside." He's only merciful in contrast to everyone around him because he lacks their sadism. He doesn't really value mercy for mercy's sake. Both his actions and the other characters' description of him paint him as "someone who isn't kind, but isn't cruel either." Many of actions seem more dictated by a sense of fair play than great sense compassion.

 

He may regret it, but he's still responsible for activating a device that would have destroyed an entire planet and leaving a Jedi Master next to it so she would die in agony. He only actually stopped and defied his master's orders after the Jedi Knight defeated him in battle. If the Knight asks him why he betrayed Angral, he will imply that he always served his code honor above Angral's commands. That to me implies that it's less the threat of the catastrophic destruction that changed his mind but his respect for his opponents' strength.

 

Frankly, even beyond the issue of Praven, I don't think that just having some redeeming qualities makes a Sith what could truly be called a lightside character.

Edited April 30, 2012 by OldVengeance

[blooddodo]

Not at all. What he say makes sense.

Siths use emotions to fuel their powers, while Jedi avoid emotions. But he also say there is plenty of emotions. Love for example. You don't have to be evil to feel. You can be good and feel. So, you are a sith, but a "good" one.

 

I just replayed that section and, what he has learned is the jedi philosophy.

He says that fear is temporary and passion can be manipulated and that true power comes when one is no longer afraid. And he then elaborates that this happens when one stops grasping at things - power, possessions, etc

[WickedDjinn]

Problem that I have is that in order to answer this question you have to really define what a Sith is vs the dark side of the force.

 

See Lucas idea of balance is that the LIGHT is balance.

 

Most people judge if differently. More on the basis of a constant push and pull between darkness and light.

 

But according to cannon logic, a Sith is fundamentally against the balance. Part of what makes a Sith a Sith, as opposed to a dark force user, is that they are an imbalance within the force. They shouldn't be able to be light side by definition without ceasing to become Sith.

[VanorDM]

They shouldn't be able to be light side by definition without ceasing to become Sith.

 

The Sith Code allows for people to follow a more light side approach.

 

Typically and traditionally the Dark Side is about negative emotions, such as fear, hate and rage. However the Sith Code doesn't require such things, it only requires passion, which can be either positive or negative. So there is nothing really stopping someone from following the Sith Code but never giving into hate or rage. But still seeking the freedom that the Sith Code promises.

[lokdron]

The Sith Code allows for people to follow a more light side approach.

 

Typically and traditionally the Dark Side is about negative emotions, such as fear, hate and rage. However the Sith Code doesn't require such things, it only requires passion, which can be either positive or negative. So there is nothing really stopping someone from following the Sith Code but never giving into hate or rage. But still seeking the freedom that the Sith Code promises.

 

Thats not how the sith teachings work. since the light side requires you to be at peace/tranquility which is pretty much anti to the sith teachings.

Edited May 2, 2012 by lokdron

[proudofthefish]

Thats not how the sith teachings work. since the light side requires you to be at peace/tranquility which is pretty much anti to the sith teachings.

 

I'd say that as a fan who has seen only the movies and read a few wiki articles on the EU I would agree with the poster above you. Would you mind posting some examples about what you mean? I'm curious.

[lokdron]

I'd say that as a fan who has seen only the movies and read a few wiki articles on the EU I would agree with the poster above you. Would you mind posting some examples about what you mean? I'm curious.

 

Warning my post will contain some spoilers from SWTOR

 

I apologize for the grammar and spelling errors.

 

"How am I to know the good side from the bad?"

"You will know, when you are calm. At peace, passive."

―Luke Skywalker and Yoda

 

Thats from the movies and the first line of the sith code says "Peace is a lie". To use the light side you must be at peace and in control the sith teachings as whole is pretty much against that. Darth revan in the darth bane novel even says to bane that you must allow yourself to be consumed by the dark side and doing that makes you lose control of yourself sometimes.

 

I played an LS sith for myself since people keep telling me that they are still sith in my opinion no they are not same goes for dark jedi.

 

The sith was founded on the dark side of the force the sith are pretty much anti light side as well if they find out a sith is light side the sith consider them tainted since their religion was founded on the dark side. The LS sith would be hunted down and destroyed.

 

Even in this game the sith warrior if light side meets the dark side version of themself the LS sith warrior can say they followed the teachings of the sith and their master to the letter. The dark side incarnation gets pissed off and says to you "Stop lying to yourself you are not sith".

 

Last thing I ask you what do you think will happen if you walk into the academy and told everyone they should be light side what do you think would happen?

 

My thoughts will be in brackets.

Now stuff from the sith wiki page!

 

"If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself … and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards… If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles."

―Darth Traya[s

 

The Sith believed that conflict was the only true test of one's ability, and so emphasized its importance. It was their belief that conflict challenged both individuals and civilizations, and so forced them to grow and evolve. They believed that the avoidance of conflict–like the pacifist teachings of the Jedi–resulted in stagnation and decline.

 

Another purpose served by conflict was the elevation of the strong and the death of the weak. By encouraging strife, the strong were able to exercise their power while the weak were weeded from the ranks of the Sith. A core tenet to Sith philosophy was self-reliance and the idea that an individual only deserved what they were strong enough to take. Likewise, morality was treated as an obstacle to be overcome, as it got in the way of a Sith's ability to recognize and seize opportunities for advancement and self-empowerment. (in the sith code morality is also a chain so is honor since that can be exploited this is also explained the darth bane novels)

 

 

The cornerstone of a Sith's power was emotion. While the Jedi taught that fear, anger, and pain were negative emotions to be overcome, the Sith believed that these strong emotions were natural, and aided individuals in their survival. (When playing an LS sith they pretty much shy-ed away from fear,anger and pain the sith teachings state that these are the emotions that lead to power in the dark side and as I said before to sith the light side is heretical. The dark council in swtor gives the sith warrior apprentice a job as the sith heretic hunter. Positive emotions are things aligned with the light side and to the sith the light side is well tainted to them.)

 

However, not all emotions were embraced by the Sith. They, like the Jedi, considered 'love' a dangerous emotion, but for different reasons. The Jedi discouraged love because it led to attachment, but the Sith taught that love led to mercy, which was anathema to them. (Yes sith teach that you don't show mercy to opponents/rivals and I mean never if you want to go really old school)

 

"But in their hearts they never forgot the Jedi. The hatred for the Jedi Order burns in their veins like fire, and it echoes in their teachings."

―Darth Traya[src]

 

 

Wookiepedia stuff stops here.

 

The sith hate everything to do with the jedi and they hate everything the jedi represent the sith warrior can even refer to the jedi as vermin. The sith is the other side of the coin to the jedi thats how lucas created them the sith in themself is about imbalance.

 

Sith order teaches negative emotions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> positive(since positive emotions are things of the light side). Since as I said before the sith order is founded on the dark side and gaining freedom through the dark side. Positive emotions is part of the light side and anyone in the sith order practicing the light side is deemded a heretic and needs to be destroyed. Darth malgus in his novel calls the light side heretical. The dark side incarnation the sith warrior meets says the sith can smell the rot off you aka light side.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Light_side_of_the_Force

 

The light side of the Force was aligned with happiness, joy, love, and benevolence, which some believed nurtured the light side and provided insight into its ethical uses. It was generally concerned with the ideas of good, generosity, healing, and wisdom, as opposed to evil, harm, and hasty judgment. In order to achieve harmony with the light side of the Force, its practitioners would often meditate to clear themselves of emotion; particularly negative emotions such as aggression, anger, and hatred

 

As I said before to the sith doing anything according to the light side is heretical to sith. There is a difference between being dark 1-5 and light 1-5 if you are light rank 1-5 then in the sith eyes you are now a heretic. Not to say playing an LS aligned sith is not interesting it is since you order wants to destroy you if they find out your true alignment. Since you are a heretic.

 

Lets not forget positive emotions don't work with the dark side only light and as I said before positive emotions are things of the light side.

Edited May 3, 2012 by lokdron

[DesAnvos]

Largely the lack of light side sith seems to come down to

 

1. Going beyond the morally grey option tends to end up close to if not treason to the Empire.

 

2. Light side is normally bad for career advancement in sith and empire society.

 

3. The sith have orders devoted to hunting down light side sith.

 

4. Jedi/lightside ways are less apealing to a sith than sith/darkside ways is for a jedi.

[tBenk]

I am really surprised that nobody has mentioned Darth Vectivus yet. Granted, most of the info on him is suspect, coming from Lumiya, but even her motives seemed pretty straightforward and she actually thought she was doing the right thing for the greater good. Also, Darth Vectivus's Force Ghost even appeared to Nelani Dinn and asked her to end his existence as a Force Phantom tied to a Dark Side user. He mocked her for not doing the right thing, but then he's been trapped there for who knows how long, so of course he's going to be a bit... grumpy and was openly trolling her by the end of their convo. Still doesn't make him evil.

I was about to go search across the internet for this info! I vaguely remembered him but no names of hard facts. I totally agree, he is the most LS Sith i can think of.

[tBenk]

I find that a lot of Sith make decisions for the good of the empire, and those are, sometimes light side. So, all Sith that work for the good of something else ( good of the Empire, the Tribe, the one Sith, etc. ) are usually light side to some extent

[Captain_Zone]

I have a hard time taking Praven seriously when he says that. He's the first Sith Lord to ever demonstrate devotion to honor or integrity, so him implying that the "true" Sith have always been that way is a stretch to me.

 

He may be the most honorable Sith ever encountered but he's not exactly the brightest. Even if one were to assume he's been misled about the Jedi ways AND the Sith ways (he all but openly admits he prefers peace, so I question how closely he paid attention to the Sith code) he accuses the Jedi of having "a lust for revenge that will destroy the galaxy" even though he was in the same conversation when Darth Angral says "My son's death will be avenged on the entire Republic. Millions will die because of you."

 

Moreover, I'd say that he's a "grey" character at best. He's not really "Lightside." He's only merciful in contrast to everyone around him because he lacks their sadism. He doesn't really value mercy for mercy's sake. Both his actions and the other characters' description of him paint him as "someone who isn't kind, but isn't cruel either." Many of actions seem more dictated by a sense of fair play than great sense compassion.

 

He may regret it, but he's still responsible for activating a device that would have destroyed an entire planet and leaving a Jedi Master next to it so she would die in agony. He only actually stopped and defied his master's orders after the Jedi Knight defeated him in battle. If the Knight asks him why he betrayed Angral, he will imply that he always served his code honor above Angral's commands. That to me implies that it's less the threat of the catastrophic destruction that changed his mind but his respect for his opponents' strength.

 

Frankly, even beyond the issue of Praven, I don't think that just having some redeeming qualities makes a Sith what could truly be called a lightside character.

 

The Sith Code is just as much about the struggle to master oneself as it is about mastering others and gaining power.

 

If turned inward, it first admits that Inner Peace is next to impossible. Therefore, Passion is preferrable to the Sith. The struggle begins to persevere and USE your emotions without being overwhelmed by them. I feel like breaking it down again, in fact.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion: As stated above, this is the first step. As the inner struggle begins to master emotions without suppressing them as the Jedi do.

 

Through Passion, I gain Strength: Fueling the Force with emotions, both negative and positive. Trying to maintain the balance and gain inner strength.

 

Through Strength, I gain Power: Self-explanatory. This is usually the basis of the Sith wanting to dominate everyone around him, when it should be about gaining inner power as his strength grows and he masters his emotions even more.

 

Through Power, I gain Victory: The basis of the Sith warmongering and desire to destroy everything. It should be about when at the height of inner power, the Sith finally achieves Victory over himself.

 

Through Victory, my chains are broken: When inner victory has been achieved, that is when the Sith can cast off his chains and use the Force without fear. Using Love and Hate and all manner of emotions depending on the situation. Every emotion has a place of importance. For sometimes, Justice must be delivered with righteous fury and without mercy. And other times, mercy and understanding are needed to solve a problem.

 

The Force shall free me: Freedom from restrictions. Freedom to use any means necessary to get the job done without succumbing to the temptation to use the power selfishly.

 

By mastering his emotions completely, and using them in all things while keeping control, the Force is a tool and weapon that responds to the Sith's will. While the code as interpreted here would be extremely hard to master, I believe that's why the Sith are as they are. They see everything in pertains to externally instead of internally.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[Velaran]

The Sith Code is just as much about the struggle to master oneself as it is about mastering others and gaining power.

 

If turned inward, it first admits that Inner Peace is next to impossible. Therefore, Passion is preferrable to the Sith. The struggle begins to persevere and USE your emotions without being overwhelmed by them. I feel like breaking it down again, in fact.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion: As stated above, this is the first step. As the inner struggle begins to master emotions without suppressing them as the Jedi do.

 

Through Passion, I gain Strength: Fueling the Force with emotions, both negative and positive. Trying to maintain the balance and gain inner strength.

 

Through Strength, I gain Power: Self-explanatory. This is usually the basis of the Sith wanting to dominate everyone around him, when it should be about gaining inner power as his strength grows and he masters his emotions even more.

 

Through Power, I gain Victory: The basis of the Sith warmongering and desire to destroy everything. It should be about when at the height of inner power, the Sith finally achieves Victory over himself.

 

Through Victory, my chains are broken: When inner victory has been achieved, that is when the Sith can cast off his chains and use the Force without fear. Using Love and Hate and all manner of emotions depending on the situation. Every emotion has a place of importance. For sometimes, Justice must be delivered with righteous fury and without mercy. And other times, mercy and understanding are needed to solve a problem.

 

The Force shall free me: Freedom from restrictions. Freedom to use any means necessary to get the job done without succumbing to the temptation to use the power selfishly.

 

By mastering his emotions completely, and using them in all things while keeping control, the Force is a tool and weapon that responds to the Sith's will. While the code as interpreted here would be extremely hard to master, I believe that's why the Sith are as they are. They see everything in pertains to externally instead of internally.

 

That.... That was awesome. Just awesome.

[OldVengeance]

You know, even putting aside the debatable issue of whether you can use positive emotions to fuel the darkside, why is that what the Sith code "should" be? According to whom?

 

The Sith Code was invented in the EU long after the Sith were, and the Sith were long established to be a power hungry morally bankrupt group of megalomaniacs and there was no point in history when that was not the case. There is no record of these "old school" Sith in history. I don't seen any reason to think that the code was misinterpreted by the modern Sith Order into something different from what it was intended to be, rather it's part of an explanation for why they are as evil as they are (which was something long established.)

 

In fact the interpretation you just described of the Sith Code is not one I've heard espoused by any Sith anywhere ever. Your version applies exclusively to the self, which obviously no Sith do. And there is nothing in the code that says it was intended to be.

[Velaran]

You know, even putting aside the debatable issue of whether you can use positive emotions to fuel the darkside, why is that what the Sith code "should" be? According to whom?

 

The Sith Code was invented in the EU long after the Sith were, and the Sith were long established to be a power hungry morally bankrupt group of megalomaniacs and there was no point in history when that was not the case. There is no record of these "old school" Sith in history. I don't seen any reason to think that the code was misinterpreted by the modern Sith Order into something different from what it was intended to be, rather it's part of an explanation for why they are as evil as they are (which was something long established.)

 

In fact the interpretation you just described of the Sith Code is not one I've heard espoused by any Sith anywhere ever. Your version applies exclusively to the self, which obviously no Sith do. And there is nothing in the code that says it was intended to be.

 

It might be less about the original intent of the Code, and more about the intent of a LS Sith interpreting the Code.

[unicornfive]

Despite 'light side' and 'sith' being mutually exclusive with their literal meanings, was there ever a notable Sith character who leaned towards mercy and caring as opposed to merciless slaugher?

 

From playing a LS Sith Warrior (mostly - I kind of smashed up a certain somebody who betrayed me during my class story) I have begun to wonder if there ever was somebody similar but I havent had any results. To me, if I were in the star wars universe, I could see myself in the spot like my warrior is in. To me, I find the fact that Jedi would be willing to sacrifice any sort of passion or emotions turns them into hollow shells that spew forth 'righteousness' and 'peace'. On the other hand, I find merciless killing (Say you were just a worker for one side or the other simply for the reason to get money to support your family - I couldnt kill you, you did nothing to wrong me) to be something which would get you more enemies than friends and could result in a potential loss of resources to use at a further date. I would want to feel love, I would want to feel anger and hate towards somebody who wronged me (If somebody killed my family, I wouldnt forgive them - that's nonsense) ...

 

Anyways, were there any Sith characters who had similar views and actions in the star wars universe? I'm curious... Not to mention any Star Wars art I have seen has always shown pure evil Sith and righteous Jedi - no middle ground or role reversals.

 

There is no such thing as light side sith....

Only less dark than others.

Also as dark side jedi, u arent jedi anymore...Either u join the sith, or none of them. I dont think the jedi order would still want you with them.

And Darth revan wasnt known as light side sith.. He was redeemed and returned to the light side as JEDI, not light side SITH.

[Captain_Zone]

It might be less about the original intent of the Code, and more about the intent of a LS Sith interpreting the Code.

 

That was actually my aim. I misused a few words in there, though.

[Captain_Zone]

You know, even putting aside the debatable issue of whether you can use positive emotions to fuel the darkside, why is that what the Sith code "should" be? According to whom?

 

The Sith Code was invented in the EU long after the Sith were, and the Sith were long established to be a power hungry morally bankrupt group of megalomaniacs and there was no point in history when that was not the case. There is no record of these "old school" Sith in history. I don't seen any reason to think that the code was misinterpreted by the modern Sith Order into something different from what it was intended to be, rather it's part of an explanation for why they are as evil as they are (which was something long established.)

 

In fact the interpretation you just described of the Sith Code is not one I've heard espoused by any Sith anywhere ever. Your version applies exclusively to the self, which obviously no Sith do. And there is nothing in the code that says it was intended to be.

 

From what I gathered about Praven, he and his family are in the distinct minority when it comes to Sith culture. I would see that interpretation of the Sith Code as their motivation. Not only that, but it's my SW's motivation as well.

 

What it all boils down to is: The Sith Code itself is not evil. Only the interpretation of it can be evil if the interpreter so chooses. That's also the easiest interpretation. I had to sit back and think about each line and what other meaning it could have. What I posted before is my own interpretation of it, and how it would be applied to a LS Sith.

 

So instead of seeking Mastery of the Force by domination, destruction, and conquest, seek it by turning the struggle inward into yourself. Master your emotions without suppressing them.

 

THAT is where it differs from the Jedi. They seek to suppress their emotions as much as possible, thereby stifling their potential power.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[Fyurii]

I find that a lot of Sith make decisions for the good of the empire, and those are, sometimes light side. So, all Sith that work for the good of something else ( good of the Empire, the Tribe, the one Sith, etc. ) are usually light side to some extent

 

Light sided in the sense that they're putting something bigger than themselves before their own personal gains and power.

 

In my opinon, a "Light Side" Sith isn't one that's devoted to balance or the Light Side like a Jedi is, but one that's more concerned with the future and stability of the Empire than with their own path to power. It makes them similar to a Jedi, but not the same.

They'll still fight to destroy the Republic and the Jedi, and treat traitors to the Empire in the same way as other Sith would, but more based upon reason and fact than suspicions or just because they were told to.

 

The downside is that they'll be seen as weak by many other Sith, and run the risk of being targetted for execution, if their actions are deemed contrary to "the good of the Empire".

[DarthFreki]

The issue is more to the idea of what happens when the SITH are a full empire vs just the TWO in the movies. Lucas had ideas put out there and they had expression in the EU. the idea of the Light Side vs Dark Side is a personal outlook when weighed across the general measure. you do a good thing, or spare someone that is light side, if you kill or destroy indiscriminately then that is dark. for instance in the original D20 rpg if you used the force to choke someone you got a dark side point. so luke got two dark side points in return of the jedi when he used the force on the gamorrian guards.

 

in terms of this game light side choices are the decision that makes you promote the government/side ahead of you, the dark side choices are for personal gain, glory, or gratification. and yes the sith can have light side choices, they want power for various reasons, the issue is they are at odds with the democratic or republic way because of the red tape so they lash out. for instance: anakin skywalker, jacen solo, luke skywalker (he did become dark once), jorus c. boath's clone. dooku, nomen kaar. also someone said if you are a dark jedi then you are not a jedi anymore that isn't true, and dark jedi are mentioned many times in the EU, and is a description not to say they were still part of the order but they are still trained as a jedi.

 

for instance someone who becomes a police officer, and gets nailed taking bribes is now referred to as a corrupt police officer, even if he's no longer on the force. it's just how to describe them.

 

Darth Freki