Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Finnius]

I've never really understood the problem with having both sides of your game be at least viable in both sides of your game. Nowhere have I said that I want my PVE gear to be zomg roxxor s00p3rhax in PVP. I want my PVE gear to be as useful as your PVP gear is in PVE.

 

The fact remains that you can do all of the gearing runs up through Columi and a bit of Rakata for PVE in PVP gear without much trouble. You cannot say the same for PVP. I cannot gear for PVP without going through an intermediary gear set that greatly reduces ALL my other stats.

 

Which is to say, the moderate amount of expertise on the recruit set weighs more heavily than well over 1000 points in combined other stats. That is fundamentally flawed design.

 

The argument that PVP can't be balanced without expertise has been refuted quite a few times, but let me do it again one more time. In the pre-50 bracket there's a mechanic called Bolster. I'm not advocating normalizing stat levels in post-50 PVP, but it proves that a global buff / debuff system is certainly viable.

 

So if you want to normalize damage, use that global buff / debuff system to normalize it to whatever game design feels is necessary and leave the gear differentiation to stats and set bonus - PVP set bonus should always be better in PVP and PVE should always be better in PVE. There's even a simple way to do that - specifically reference PCs and NPCs in the set bonuses.

 

Of course, that means the only major advantage you'd get from PVE gear in PVP is your stats. But with the removal of expertise, design is free to streamline that between the two sets as well. With a better PVP set bonus, the PVP gear still wins out.

 

It just doesn't crush the non-PVP gear before it like an atom bomb.

[Larzi]

Expertise is wonderful!

 

If someone lvls to lvl 50 and does not save up 250K credits and 2000 comms then that is their loss. If you were to save up these things then befoe you que your FIRST lvl 50 WZ you will be in 1-2 BM pieces and recruit for the rest 800-1000 expertise.

Honestly, people should play the game as is and not berate BW because they havent made the game so that people that do something silly will have it easier.

 

Spolier alert!!!!~~~~ Level 50 is coming and you will need pvp gear!

 

I am a tank and full BM (1189 expertise), When i use my Pve gear i gain a solid 1.5k hps to tank better and my aim increases quite a bit to adjust to the pve. I am sure

[TUXs]

Expertise sucks.

 

Expertise is only for players who can't beat people with skill alone. They NEED a gear advantage.

[Honsinspace]

I think its pretty simple, its doing what its supposed to do. In many MMO's I have played, PvPers complain about ability's being overpowered when used in PvP always resulting in Nerfs. If it requires gear to do any good in PvP it creates a separation with out having to nerf individual classes or ability's. Go get PvP gear. My 50 Merc PvPed all threw out leveling and i purchased all of the recruit gear at 50, 2 days after 1.2 came out, now only a few weeks later I have all battle master and am working on War hero. Suck it up out there, shell out some clams and die a few times. No one is gonna hand you ****. Sure some of the big bad people all stacked up in gear slap you around a bit, But luckily for you.. You don't get negative rewards. Deaths don't mean ****.

Long live the separation of PvP and PvE.

On the same note, my inquiz heals PvE, and it would be a huge shame if it got nerfed. With its gear it would out heal all day long, thus causing a nerf to inquiz healing.

:wea_02: pew pew:wea_03:shawing

Edited April 30, 2012 by Honsinspace

[Larzi]

Like any other MMO how good you are is a direct reflection of how much time you put into the game.

 

Yes i play a lot, yes i have cool looking armor that has expertise, and yes i can still dominate people that pvp on occasion.

 

No you do not have the right to flame a system because you choose not to participate, No you could not beat most of these PvPs in duels with their pve gear on.

 

Please stop complaning and adapt to the game. Or the alternative you can keep pvping and getting facerolled by people that buy recruit gear and then come post for my amusement.

[Feyak]

Expertise is wonderful!

 

If someone lvls to lvl 50 and does not save up 250K credits and 2000 comms then that is their loss. If you were to save up these things then befoe you que your FIRST lvl 50 WZ you will be in 1-2 BM pieces and recruit for the rest 800-1000 expertise.

Honestly, people should play the game as is and not berate BW because they havent made the game so that people that do something silly will have it easier.

 

Spolier alert!!!!~~~~ Level 50 is coming and you will need pvp gear!

 

I am a tank and full BM (1189 expertise), When i use my Pve gear i gain a solid 1.5k hps to tank better and my aim increases quite a bit to adjust to the pve. I am sure

 

I agree with some points and disagree with others. Pre 1.2 the Commendation cap was 1000, any more is wasted, cause you won't get 'em. Post 1.2 I agree, should have that stored up, but I know there are a slew of players who diddn't have that opportunity as they hit 50 the day of, after or what not for PVP, and honestly most people who don't have a lvl 50 don't realize how much of a game changer Expertise is. Had I personally known it would have made that much of a difference, I would have made sure I had the money for every piece of gear, and wouldn't have bothered making sure I have epic crafts for implants, Ear piece, or what ever else was needed.

 

Now, you better believe I will be making sure I have enough when hitting 50, but only because of experience.

 

Expertise sucks.

 

Expertise is only for players who can't beat people with skill alone. They NEED a gear advantage.

 

I can see both sides of this, but any game that has no progression will fade away and die. So to make sure that PVE Players have stuff to do, they come out with new content, to make sure PVPers have a reason to still play, they come out with new gear that is the proverbial Carrot for the turtle. They have something to work for.

 

I say it needs to change, but I don't think it's a "gear advantage" if all gear is equal. Take the previous poster Larzi, w/ his 1.3k expertise, If I had the same amount of expertise, then it is skill that takes the kill. it's just getting to that number is a major Pain in the A**

 

Last point to add, they will soon be making even more reason for PVPers to play, and that will be ranked warzones, which offer better gear, and honestly the biggest most fun part. Show your EPEEN by getting your rank up... Honestly I can't wait

Edited April 30, 2012 by Feyak
appending

[Honsinspace]

Expertise sucks.

 

Expertise is only for players who can't beat people with skill alone. They NEED a gear advantage.

 

 

Im sure you have madskillz bro.

 

Tough words. Tough talk.

[NuSeC]

Expertise sucks.

 

Expertise is only for players who can't beat people with skill alone. They NEED a gear advantage.

 

Honestly, I would not care if my BM were to be replaced by a tier 3 PVE set and EXP was removed from gear.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Like any other MMO how good you are is a direct reflection of how much time you put into the game.

 

Yes i play a lot, yes i have cool looking armor that has expertise, and yes i can still dominate people that pvp on occasion.

 

No you do not have the right to flame a system because you choose not to participate, No you could not beat most of these PvPs in duels with their pve gear on.

 

Please stop complaning and adapt to the game. Or the alternative you can keep pvping and getting facerolled by people that buy recruit gear and then come post for my amusement.

 

While I agree whining/complaining, (especially uneducated complaining) is annoying and often times pointless, to disagree with a system is perfectly fine. Remaining quiet is one of the worst ways to get something changed if it is negatively effecting multiple people. (The only worse way than being quiet is "BW fix or I unsubs and takes my 15 bucks!") Many people like expertise.

 

Many people -hate- expertise and the segregation between endgame content. For the most part, a person does work for their gear (Raiding or PvP), and to many of us the idea that out raid/pvp gear can't be used in multiple aspects of the game simply doesn't make sense. If "we" had our way, would it be appropriate for "us" to tell you; "Shut up and adapt!"

 

If an alternate system can be created to remove this segregation and still avoid certian problems, it won't be be from remaining silent.

[Rogozhi]

I agree with some points and disagree with others. Pre 1.2 the Commendation cap was 1000, any more is wasted, cause you won't get 'em. Post 1.2 I agree, should have that stored up, but I know there are a slew of players who diddn't have that opportunity as they hit 50 the day of, after or what not for PVP, and honestly most people who don't have a lvl 50 don't realize how much of a game changer Expertise is. Had I personally known it would have made that much of a difference, I would have made sure I had the money for every piece of gear, and wouldn't have bothered making sure I have epic crafts for implants, Ear piece, or what ever else was needed.

 

Now, you better believe I will be making sure I have enough when hitting 50, but only because of experience.

 

 

 

I can see both sides of this, but any game that has no progression will fade away and die. So to make sure that PVE Players have stuff to do, they come out with new content, to make sure PVPers have a reason to still play, they come out with new gear that is the proverbial Carrot for the turtle. They have something to work for.

 

I say it needs to change, but I don't think it's a "gear advantage" if all gear is equal. Take the previous poster Larzi, w/ his 1.3k expertise, If I had the same amount of expertise, then it is skill that takes the kill. it's just getting to that number is a major Pain in the A**

 

Last point to add, they will soon be making even more reason for PVPers to play, and that will be ranked warzones, which offer better gear, and honestly the biggest most fun part. Show your EPEEN by getting your rank up... Honestly I can't wait

 

See the bolded. The point people are trying to make is getting a good amount of expertise ISN'T a pain at all anymore. I've been 50 for two weeks now and I'm sitting at 900ish expertise. Full BM armor set and recruit everything else. Very first WZ I played I was enjoying my two piece BM set bonus.

 

Honestly, if you want to do well and get the most out of a MMO you should be putting a bit of time into understanding the mechanics of the game. Read the forums, read the Q&As, watch some videos, or whatever, but you can't claim ignorance of what's required to enjoy content and expect it to be BW's fault.

 

And I really don't think the reason people are having such a terrible time has anything to do with expertise anyways. It has to do with pugging it against premades, not having a tank guarding you as a healer, over-extending as DPS, and all the other important tactics that seem completely lost on PUGs.

[VoidJustice]

While I agree that I hate the idea of splitting raid and pvp content. Please understand that removing expertise and the pvp "grind" will make raiding mandatory for pvp and fly's in the face of EVERYTHING the community has tried to achieve in pvp in this game.

 

Personally, I love the pve to pvp system as it means more people raid, and gear progression gets dragged out over...

 

YEARS...

 

but Im oldskool most Wowkiddies and the FPS crowd would totally /unsub in a pve raid for pvp game.

 

Watchout what you wish for... There are very few of you that would really want this, once it was implemented.

 

I do find it amusing thou as the "gear doesn't = skill crowd" starts to get the gear under the new ezmode system, and then starts to complain cause now their getting whipped by pure skill and want a gear progression to save them... rotfl... how bout you just work on your skill folks and getting better at the game under any system.

 

all the nerf posts, cheats, hacks, shortcuts, and change the whole game/nerf class x posts in the world won't make you any better at games. Only honest practice, evaluation of your own play and learning to work in a team will.

Edited April 30, 2012 by VoidJustice

[DawgPoundSwag]

Honestly, I would not care if my BM were to be replaced by a tier 3 PVE set and EXP was removed from gear.

 

This right here. The reason expertise even exists is to level the playing field between the hardcore raiders and those who don't run all the HM Ops every week. If there were no ”PvP” stat, then the raiders decked out in the latest tier would be facerolling everything in sight.

 

But if you don't want expertise in play anymore then that's fine. Just give the PvP'rs access to top tier (Campaign ATM) gear through WZs.

[Rogozhi]

While I agree whining/complaining, (especially uneducated complaining) is annoying and often times pointless, to disagree with a system is perfectly fine. Remaining quiet is one of the worst ways to get something changed if it is negatively effecting multiple people. (The only worse way than being quiet is "BW fix or I unsubs and takes my 15 bucks!") Many people like expertise.

 

Many people -hate- expertise and the segregation between endgame content. For the most part, a person does work for their gear (Raiding or PvP), and to many of us the idea that out raid/pvp gear can't be used in multiple aspects of the game simply doesn't make sense. If "we" had our way, would it be appropriate for "us" to tell you; "Shut up and adapt!"

 

If an alternate system can be created to remove this segregation and still avoid certian problems, it won't be be from remaining silent.

 

The best PvP gear can be obtained by solo pugging. The best PvE gear can't. Why can't the PvE crowd just spend a week in WZs, solo, and get the BM set? Or why do I need to spend so much time getting the Rakata set what with finding groups or getting together enough guildies to raid?

[Larzi]

No kidding, if they did away with expertise then the poor PvPers would take up arms against raid gear.

 

Would you rather raid hard content for 2-5 hours straight at the chance of gear?

 

Or be able to casually PvP and work towards gear that has expertise and can hang very well PvE?

[Big_Swifty]

I agree - Expertise is Terrible.

 

I am a dedicated PvPer, but this is how the game works for me: a few times each week, say three, I log in and PvP for a few hours... say three. So, an average of nine hours of play time, and nine hours of PvP, per week. That is all the time that I have to play at the moment. Call me "casual" if you want, but I am dedicated.

 

So my Jugg hit lvl 50 just before 1.2 came out. I have a few Cent and champ items on that toon, since I had 1000 WZ and 1000 Merc commendations saved up, and one Bag already purchased in advance. So, immediately after hitting lvl 50 I get a few items and get something like 155 Expertise (and 13k HP).

 

1.2 comes, and I cannot do ANYTHING useful in PvP. Hell - other players end up just ignoring me: I am beating on them, with the so-called OP Ravage, for example, and they just stand there and keep doing something else. My Ravage does something like 600 damage per tick. Then someone decides to look at me and I die.

 

"Go buy the recruit gear!" you say!

First, where am I supposed to get the 380k credits? I PvP exclusively, like I said - I still haven't even trained all of my skills! (the PvE-only ones, in particular)

Also, I spend some time and money getting a nice Custom (orange) set that I enjoy as I leveled. The Recruit gear does not have mods (I have no idea why!) so, even if I did have the credits, I would have to give up the gear that I like for gear that I do not want, just so that I can play PvP again.

 

So what did I do? Started playing alts.

 

When my toon hit 50, I couldn't PvP anymore, because of Expertise, so I stopped playing that toon. It's a simple as that. If I were more dedicated to that particular toon, I would instead quit the game. Luckily for BW I will play alts until 50 and then stop playing them too.... for now.

 

Expertise is the problem.

 

This is a sample of how it SHOULD work (arbitrary numbers)

Green gear: item level = character level; e.g., green gear requiring lvl 49 has a lvl 49 stat allocation

Blue = green item level + something (for example, 1); e.g., blue gear requiring lvl 49 has a lvl 50 stat allocation (that is, it is equivalent to lvl 50 Green gear)

Purple = green item level + for example, 2; a lvl 49 purple should have a stat allocation like a lvl 51 green item.

Epic Tiers = + 1 (for example) item level per tier

 

So a fresh lvl 50 in orange gear with Blue mods will have lvl 50 equivalent gear. Players with lvl 50 blue gear will have better stats that are the sum of the increased stat allocation for one level, per item equipped.

 

More dedication to get gear = better gear. Better gear = better stats. Better stats = advantage in PvP and PvE.

 

That is enough motivation. Your stats are better than your opponent's, so you have the advantage.

 

EXPERTISE is not necessary, or even the slightest bit desirable, in any way at all.

 

Give players the option to gear however they like - to fully take advantage of the Mod system. That should be all that is required. Get rid of expertise. Seriously. Please.

[Doomsdaycomes]

The best PvP gear can be obtained by solo pugging. The best PvE gear can't. Why can't the PvE crowd just spend a week in WZs, solo, and get the BM set? Or why do I need to spend so much time getting the Rakata set what with finding groups or getting together enough guildies to raid?

 

Not quite sure what you're saying here, whether you're disagreeing with me or not. However, the last line of my post was:

 

If an alternate system can be created to remove this segregation and still avoid certian problems, it won't be be from remaining silent.

 

If the certian problem is "a Solo Pug-er" can get the best gear and how is it fair to the pve'er who spent his time and effort (work) on his top gear by finding people to raid with, then the new system would need to find a way to solve that. The main content of my post was to the person who essentially said "Shut up and deal."

 

I was simply saying "If no one says anything, how does any one know there is a problem?"

 

^_^ On a side note, when the PvE Lfg tool comes, a Solo pug'er could get the best Pve gear.

[Rogozhi]

No kidding, if they did away with expertise then the poor PvPers would take up arms against raid gear.

 

Would you rather raid hard content for 2-5 hours straight at the chance of gear?

 

Or be able to casually PvP and work towards gear that has expertise and can hang very well PvE?

 

Recruit = Tionese

BM = Columni

WH = Rakata

 

Considering drops in HMs now depend on group make up, getting your Columni set should take LESS time than your BM. That tier, either PvP or PvE, is a casual grind.

 

Getting WH or Rakata takes a considerably greater effort and the PvP set can't be used in PvE if you're doing NM content. Tier 3 is where things pull away and stop being casual.

[Larzi]

You cant honestly think that when and if they implement a Group finder cross server that an Operations of PUGS will be able to handle Nightmare Ops?

[Doomsdaycomes]

No kidding, if they did away with expertise then the poor PvPers would take up arms against raid gear.

 

Would you rather raid hard content for 2-5 hours straight at the chance of gear?

 

Or be able to casually PvP and work towards gear that has expertise and can hang very well PvE?

 

^_^ For your information, one of my first MMO's, end game gear was crafted from materials dropped by bosses. So not only did you need to raise your crafting skill, you then had to run dungeons to get materials. Depending on the boss, they might drop 2-6. If no one else needed those for their gear, great! If not... you could end up spliting those 2-6 between 6 people. Let's not even go into gear that needed Gold (rare) mats!

 

People did it, so to answer your question, I wouldn't mind farming mats/tokens for a piece of gear especially since the operations here are so much more interesting.

 

(And we didn't have PvP gear either, if you wanted to pvp, you had to run dungeons. Not everyone in an MMO is lazy.)

[Doomsdaycomes]

You cant honestly think that when and if they implement a Group finder cross server that an Operations of PUGS will be able to handle Nightmare Ops?

 

^_^ same way Pugs beat premades. Alot of skilled, decent players don't join guilds for X number of reasons (Not enough time to commit to "raid schedules," Too much drama, simply not interested...) and alot of guilded players either don't get a spot that week, or are bored and PuG for kicks.

[TUXs]

Im sure you have madskillz bro.

 

Tough words. Tough talk.

 

Oh....you can't handle not having a gear advantage? Is that what you feel you need to win? You don't think you could win a straight up fight against others?

 

I never said I had madskillz, nor am I related to you. I win some, I lose some - all I PvP for is fun.

[Dekai]

So many fallacies and un-supported arguments in this thread...

 

"I PvP almost exclusively, I can't afford the recruit gear once 50!" -This is a bold faced lie. My Sorc S'mores leveled strictly through PvP alone. She had well over 700k credits since all she had to do was buy PvP weapons for Mods/Enhancements and purchase Armoring from the GTN.

 

"PvP gear is almost equal to PvE gear in raids with minimal loss" -Not true. If you compare Battlemaster, to it's PvE equivalent of Rakata, you would see how much of your base stat is removed on BM to give you expertise, as well as secondary stats. Can you do HM Operations with BM? Yes, but definitely would be far behind any other tanks/dps/healers and a detriment to your team, same thing if you wore Rakata gear in a Warzone. You can parse this and see now in 1.2.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't let you into my Nightmare mode Ops with Battlemaster either. 1-2 Pieces, fine... Full set? You're sitting.

[Feyak]

See the bolded. The point people are trying to make is getting a good amount of expertise ISN'T a pain at all anymore. I've been 50 for two weeks now and I'm sitting at 900ish expertise. Full BM armor set and recruit everything else. Very first WZ I played I was enjoying my two piece BM set bonus.

 

Honestly, if you want to do well and get the most out of a MMO you should be putting a bit of time into understanding the mechanics of the game. Read the forums, read the Q&As, watch some videos, or whatever, but you can't claim ignorance of what's required to enjoy content and expect it to be BW's fault.

 

And I really don't think the reason people are having such a terrible time has anything to do with expertise anyways. It has to do with pugging it against premades, not having a tank guarding you as a healer, over-extending as DPS, and all the other important tactics that seem completely lost on PUGs.

 

I would never expect a Casual player to Troll the forum, read Q&As, and make a second job out of excelling at this game. The hardest thing for any MMORPG is to cater to both Casual players that want to have fun, and Hardcore players that think they are 1337, and everyone else suxorz and if you don't feel the same, play the same, or think the same as them, then as they don't meet every requirement listed, then they are a scrub. There in lies the Ranked vs. Unranked matches which would be Biowares answer to this debate.

 

Still the system is unbalanced when considering people who are just starting to PVP vs. Hardened PVPers with all the Expertise in the world.

 

A lot of this will be answered after the Cross Server PVP is up and running. More people to pull from means better spread of gear levels, meaning better chance at surviving longer then 5 seconds.

[Marlaine]

Expertise is a stat that encourages the player to gear through pvp for pvp gear. If you can't handle shelling out for recruit gear or spending any time at all getting a decent pvp set then pls just stick to heroic 4 mans.

 

Your argument would be spot on if it wasn't for the fact that there are three tiers of pvp gear, the top gear being virtually impenetrable to those with the lower tier.

 

I bought every single piece of pvp gear available to me, and still barely scratch those with superior pvp gear. On top of it I have to deal with people like you who just don't get this and insist on yelling at me for being undergeared when I cannot get any more pvp gear without.....wait for it..........pvping!

[Dekai]

Your argument would be spot on if it wasn't for the fact that there are three tiers of pvp gear, the top gear being virtually impenetrable to those with the lower tier.

 

I bought every single piece of pvp gear available to me, and still barely scratch those with superior pvp gear. On top of it I have to deal with people like you who just don't get this and insist on yelling at me for being undergeared when I cannot get any more pvp gear without.....wait for it..........pvping!

 

The gap between Recruit to War Hero is noticeable, but you can still get to BM from Recruit with minimal effort. And the difference between BM and WH is negligible.

 

At least you can still progress in gear, without it costing you anything. When the game first launched, our first HM Ops attempts cost a fortune in credits due to bugs and learning the encounters. So your argument would be valid if there was a penalty for losing. You are rewarded no matter how well you do in PvP.