What Sent/Mar spec and change has contributed to them becoming op?

[Quinlynn]

Thre real issue is not Sent/Mar, it is population.

 

On my server, we have a severe population issue. When we have ~45 Repub on Fleet, Imps have ~150.

 

Thusly, their premade groups are much more likely to have multiple healers and DPS'ers. The dominant DPS'er class is Mara. Thusly, the perception is that Mara is OP'd when in fact it is a population issue.

 

BW failed big time by making Classes/Professions faction locked and they failing to delver mirrors. All the Classes / profs should have been independent of faction to eliminate any failed perception of bad balance. BW will never win this battle going forward and they were lazy about how they implemented the voice overs / quests that dictated they lock faction.

 

IMHO

[rsomazzi]

I still see commandos wreck face.

 

I never said they didn't, nor that MY Commando does not. We *can* wreck, but not "wreck face" unless the Commando is geared well and the target is a fresh 50 in greens and blues. Different from that example, things change.

 

But, have you played a Commando? Have you seen your self:

 

1. Constantly interrupted so you can't cast your only real dps ability: grav while your health gets chunked down?

2. Have to turret to attempt #1 (stand still) and still not be able to "cast" your dps abilities?

3. Rely on one, long cooldown break to get out of trouble? Imagine for a moment what happens when you're on that cooldown... yea...

 

BUT! Isn't that supposed to be the weaknesses of a dps class, because they can "wreck face", as you put it?

 

So, while you're here, please list the weaknesses, similar to the above for the Commando, that an equally geared Marauder has. There has to be some, right? Please help me out and list them. I am being serious, I don't know the class other what is presented to me in matches, so help me out. I'd like to know what a class that is currently built for dps output AND mitigation has in terms of weaknesses. They have to exist, right? I mean, I play a Commando and the weaknesses are pretty clear. Thanks...

 

fyi, for being such a great PvP tank, I'd expect the Marauder to have a weakness, say, in dps output. But that's not what I read, nor is that what I find in warzones. When I see a Marauder, unless he's craptastically geared, I see a class with BOTH high damage output AND high damage mitigation. Please explain if that's not truly the case. I'd like to know more. Thanks again.

[rsomazzi]

Squishy like say, a pyrotech? That's the problem I have with Mara/Sents. You have an escape mechanic, great defensive cds, and very good damage. Take away those first two benefits and you've got a Pyrotech. Sents and Rauders don't know how good you've got it in the current state of PvP.

 

Agree.

 

Interesting to me how much talk there is about class balance, and yet, I have yet to see some real testing.

 

It would be really nice to record several matches, at least, between a Mara/Sent and say my class, Commando. Video, plus parsed combat logs, not just who was still standing at the end. You'd have to keep variables constant, right, like gear and player skill, but if it could be set up, man, what the data would say.

 

Interesting to me, given how valuable such testing would be, that I haven't found anything like this from either Bioware or players. It would first be up to BW to provide this, since all the code are belongs to them. I'd be willing to supply the Commando, but there's still the details of gear and skill to hammer out I suppose.

Edited April 30, 2012 by rsomazzi

[Tigalo]

Short answer to the OP:

Expertise damage buff got a boost

Expertise healing buff got a nerf

 

So,

dps >> healing

+

dps with superior defensive CDs >> other dps

=

mauraderf/sentinels is now a very strong PvP class

Edited April 30, 2012 by Tigalo

[Kaarsa]

Short answer to the OP:

Expertise damage buff got a boost

Expertise healing buff got a nerf

 

So,

dps >> healing

+

dps with superior defensive CDs >> other dps

=

mauraderf/sentinels is now a very strong PvP class

 

Damage increased by expertise is now almost exactly canceled by damage reduced by expertise. Difference between now and previous system - about 1,76%.

 

Difference between max healing increase from expertise before 1.2 and after 1.2 - around 1,5% (I am not sure what exact value it is, but it is more than 1% and probably less than 2%).

 

As usualy, a lot of QQ about nothing.

[Leafy_Bug]

1200+ expertise shadow here with full BM augmented and 3 WH mods+ war hero stalker augmented main weapon here. I don't find marauders overpowered as 1 v 1 i never get hit more than 3.7k from their mighty smash, however, in my infiltration burst i crit them easily double with my upheaval and breach.

 

Infiltration shadows are still one of the funniest damage dealers in 1 v 1 however since 1.2 my life expectancy has been cut very short. From a pleasant 2 31 8 tree i alternate to a 31 0 10 . As some of you stated, the expertise has a more important role than ever. I have a 23 % + damage boost and if I hit first from stealth the marauder has no chance. Out of cloak, if i have a few cds, he may kill me but not easily as I can make his life a living hell. I don't go down easily as shadows have so many countermeasures against marauders.

 

Now someone said something about population. Spot on! Lord Calypho has 50 % less republic players than imperials.Furthermore, since 1.2 healers have vanished on my server. Seers can't keep up with the healing and they die, thus they respec. If you are lucky enough to get a scoundrel or a commando healer you can do some damage. If not, rakata medpac all the way.

 

 

Bottom line (hope BioWare reads this),

 

Lord Calypho has a lot of quitters lately. As soon as 6 marauders pop up in the other team i am left alone in a warzone. This happened twice today.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Leafy_Bug

[ZDProletariat]

If you are a gunslinger or sniper and a you think a sent or mara can't be kited you really need to work on your class. Legshot has a 12-15 second cool down that does not add to resolve. We have a knock back that you can use once a fight against a mara. We have cover that stops them from getting to us, we have a stun grenade that works perfectly on undying rage. And my favorite, if they get to us, kick them in the nutts.

 

They have one CC breaker and a gap closer that can't be used if we are in cover. Don't let them get near you in the first place. We are ranged, we should stay that way.

 

Force camo closes the gap after knockback. Saber ward blocks leg shot. You can only use two of either the knockback, flashbang, or nut kick. You want to damage? They pacify after saber ward is down. Rebuke for later when you are desperate to try to damage. Then when they get low, they use UR. Oh, you saved your flashbang for that? Oh good that means the only cc you were able to use on the marauder was a knockback that he force camoed out of to get to melee range opening with a snare.

Either you are playing in the 1-49 bracket, or you aren't playing very good marauders/sentinels. The decent ones know how to EASILY get in melee range and stay in it. They have the tools, it's just a matter of executing it.

You will be able to do some damage, but if he knows what he's doing and has equal gear you don't have a very good chance of success at all.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Why would you use the knock back before force camo? They have no ability that lets them sneak up on you besides that? Mara's and sents don't sneak up on you.

 

They have two glowing sticks, engage them before they engage you. You are range, use range. If a sent attacks you at melee range and you both have 100% health you did something wrong.

 

I also really dont' believe in pvp everyone will always have every cool down up. SW is a 3 minute CD, they will have that up 3-5 times at most in a pvp match.

[Scoobings]

The TTK went down, which increased the value of survivability skills. Especially ones that make you near immune to damage. In a 10 second fight, 5 seconds of not taking damage is a huge deal.

[rsomazzi]

The TTK went down, which increased the value of survivability skills. Especially ones that make you near immune to damage. In a 10 second fight, 5 seconds of not taking damage is a huge deal.

 

To put it in another perspective, tell me if there are 2 or 3 people targeting and hammering the Marauder for the duration of the invulnerability, even if they cut it short realizing he is on it. Now tell me how much damage has been mitigated in that time.

 

All classes should be lucky enough to have such an ability. Invulnerability, wow.

 

Now go roll a Commando and tell me how you like it.

[HurricaneXXIV]

To put it in another perspective, tell me if there are 2 or 3 people targeting and hammering the Marauder for the duration of the invulnerability, even if they cut it short realizing he is on it. Now tell me how much damage has been mitigated in that time.

 

All classes should be lucky enough to have such an ability. Invulnerability, wow.

 

Now go roll a Commando and tell me how you like it.

 

Commandos were the biggest loser in this patch. They use to be quite a bit more durable in contrast to other ranged classes. Now they seem like glass cannons with 1 way to peel melee off them.

[Tigalo]

Damage increased by expertise is now almost exactly canceled by damage reduced by expertise. Difference between now and previous system - about 1,76%.

 

Difference between max healing increase from expertise before 1.2 and after 1.2 - around 1,5% (I am not sure what exact value it is, but it is more than 1% and probably less than 2%).

 

As usualy, a lot of QQ about nothing.

 

O'rly?

 

Is the tooltip on my expertise wrong them?

 

I am only partial BM/recruit, so these numbers will be even bigger difference to all those in full WH gear:

1077 expertise gives:

Damage done to other players: 20,98%

Damage reduction from other players: 17,34%

Healing boost during pvp combat: 11,56%

 

Pre 1.2 this would have been the same number, f.eks

dmg 10%

redcution 10%

healing 10%

 

 

So, clearly you are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.

[ZDProletariat]

They have two glowing sticks, engage them before they engage you. You are range, use range. If a sent attacks you at melee range and you both have 100% health you did something wrong.

So in your mind ranged classes always have every cooldown up when a melee pops his head up? Or perhaps it's more honest to realize that if you don't have everything available, they have an easy job of getting to you while they don't need to have everything up to keep on you and kill you.

[HurricaneXXIV]

So in your mind ranged classes always have every cooldown up when a melee pops his head up? Or perhaps it's more honest to realize that if you don't have everything available, they have an easy job of getting to you while they don't need to have everything up to keep on you and kill you.

 

Class specific, as a GS I have a much easier time. Our CD's are very low and rarely down. I'd say 60% of my peeling CD's are actually used to help peel melee off my healers. When I'm in cover only two classes can sneak up behind me and charge isn't an issue.

 

They are a strong class, I expect to see 1-2 of them on teams come rated warzones. 3 Healers, 1-2 tanks and 3-4 dps.

[Derian]

CC. Learn to use it. The only defensive CC that Sent/Mara has that lasts longer than 5 seconds is Saber Ward which is only really useful against weapon damage since it doesn't give the Defence bonus to force or tech damage (just some mitigation).

 

Rebuke/Cloak of Pain is there to punish people who hit them. If you see it go up CC the Sent/Mar and then just don't hit them for a couple of seconds. Only bad players let them get the full 30 seconds of 20% damage mitigation from it.

 

Guarded by The Force/Undying Rage is actually hard countered by the following classes: Gunslinger, Sniper, Jedi Knight, Sith Warrior, Shadow and Assassin. Why? Execute abilities. The additional burst can potentially kill an unguarded Sent/Mara before the CD goes off and the threat alone of those execute abilities will make a Sent/Mara fire it off too soon if you panic them. Also Gunslinger and Sniper have the insane burst necessary to bring down a Sent/Mara from 100% before they get close so they are worth a mention.

 

Bad players that throw around CC like candy and refuse to work as a team make the class seem OP when it really isn't.

 

QFT This isn't just a marauder thing. Please stop using CC like it's going out of style. CC is used very stupidly by most people. I save mine for capping objectives, defending objectives, and countering classes "oh ****" abilities. GBTF is such an ability. Uninterruptable bubble is an ability like that as well.

 

Stop opening with stuns (Unless you are an Operative). I'll be running somewhere in a WZ and I get stunned randomly. *** is the point of that? Also *** is the point of dazing the ball carrier in HB? Do you know how stupid that is?

 

These people, should not decide what is OP and what is fair.

[Scoobings]

O'rly?

 

Is the tooltip on my expertise wrong them?

 

I am only partial BM/recruit, so these numbers will be even bigger difference to all those in full WH gear:

1077 expertise gives:

Damage done to other players: 20,98%

Damage reduction from other players: 17,34%

Healing boost during pvp combat: 11,56%

 

Pre 1.2 this would have been the same number, f.eks

dmg 10%

redcution 10%

healing 10%

 

 

So, clearly you are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.

 

Not wrong, but the tooltip is misleading. Because of the way damage mitigation is calculated, the poster you are quoting is correct. There's a thread around here that does the actual math, but the net increase of damage on someone who has equal resilience is peanuts.

 

Quick and dirty example:

 

Hit for 2000, with an expertise increase in damage of 10% = 2200

 

That hit goes to the player with 10% expertise mitigation who takes 10% off 2200 (not 2000) so player gets hit for 1980.

 

So, pre 1.2 expertise was actually reducing damage taken.

 

Now:

Damage done to other players: 20,98%

Damage reduction from other players: 17,34%

 

 

Player deals 2000 damage, damage increased by 20.98% -> 2419.6

 

Defensive player gets hit for 2419.6 and mitigates 17.34% of that -> Defensive player is hit for 2000.04136

 

The damage increase is next to nothing, even though the tooltips are incredibly misleading.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Scoobings

[Altruismo]

O'rly?

 

Is the tooltip on my expertise wrong them?

 

I am only partial BM/recruit, so these numbers will be even bigger difference to all those in full WH gear:

1077 expertise gives:

Damage done to other players: 20,98%

Damage reduction from other players: 17,34%

Healing boost during pvp combat: 11,56%

 

Pre 1.2 this would have been the same number, f.eks

dmg 10%

redcution 10%

healing 10%

 

 

So, clearly you are wrong, or the tooltip is wrong.

 

When you don't understand a subject, you should not go around telling people they are wrong about that subject.

 

Here: 100 damage, +20.98% is 120.98 damage, reduce that by 17.34% and you have 100.002 damage.

They cancel each other out, Get it?

 

Here's an even bigger treat for you, when someone in full BM attacks you(in full recruit), they do only 3.4% more damage than they would if they attacked someone else who was also in full BM.

Or more importantly, if someone in full WH attacked you with your 1077 expertise:

100 damage +23.95% = 123.95 damage, reduced by your 17.34% = 102.45707 damage (you take ~2.46% more damage than someone in full WH gear would)

 

Where the new expertise changes really have an impact, is when someone in recruit or better gear fights someone with <500 expertise. It's a slaughter.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Altruismo

[Tigalo]

When you don't understand a subject, you should not go around telling people they are wrong about that subject.

 

Here: 100 damage, +20.98% is 120.98 damage, reduce that by 17.34% and you have 100.002 damage.

They cancel each other out, Get it?

 

Here's an even bigger treat for you, when someone in full BM attacks you(in full recruit), they do only 3.4% more damage than they would if they attacked someone else who was also in full BM.

Or more importantly, if someone in full WH attacked you with your 1077 expertise:

100 damage +23.95% = 123.95 damage, reduced by your 17.34% = 102.45707 damage (you take ~2.46% more damage than someone in full WH gear would)

 

Where the new expertise changes really have an impact, is when someone in recruit or better gear fights someone with <500 expertise. It's a slaughter.

 

Not wrong, but the tooltip is misleading. Because of the way damage mitigation is calculated, the poster you are quoting is correct. There's a thread around here that does the actual math, but the net increase of damage on someone who has equal resilience is peanuts.

 

Quick and dirty example:

 

Hit for 2000, with an expertise increase in damage of 10% = 2200

 

That hit goes to the player with 10% expertise mitigation who takes 10% off 2200 (not 2000) so player gets hit for 1980.

 

So, pre 1.2 expertise was actually reducing damage taken.

 

Now:

Damage done to other players: 20,98%

Damage reduction from other players: 17,34%

 

 

Player deals 2000 damage, damage increased by 20.98% -> 2419.6

 

Defensive player gets hit for 2419.6 and mitigates 17.34% of that -> Defensive player is hit for 2000.04136

 

The damage increase is next to nothing, even though the tooltips are incredibly misleading.

 

I see you both conveniently forget to mention healing, when my point was that dps >> healing the way the system works now.

 

Also, by the same math you use, dmg is now stronger than it was pre 1.2. Where it now cancel each other out, before it got reduced (100+10%=110 110-10%=99).

 

So, my point stands, dps classes are now stronger than pre 1.2, healer classes are weaker. Add to that TTK is shorter, two out of 3 healing classes got nerfed, and you still get the same result, dps >> healing.

 

Add to that the fact that since TTK is now shorter, beeing able to pull someone back from the brink of death is hard, but since mara/sent give the healers an extra 5 seconds to pull that off, they become even stronger yet.

[Astarica]

I swear some people think +100% damage cancels out 100% damage mitigation.

 

Pre 1.2 each piece of Rakata gave you about 0.5% more DPS and heal numbers are smaller. The heal % is there to ensure you still heal more (in PvP) in PvP gear than PvE gear. The overall % is low because playing in a game where nobody ever died is not very exciting. Sure heals can be +25% like DPS is, but that just means any team with 2 healers would never die and Alderran games would end up the first team to cap the first turret wins (because the middle would never be capped). Voidstar would be all 0-0, and Huttball would be the team that grabbed the ball first wins. Not exactly exciting stuff.

[Scoobings]

I see you both conveniently forget to mention healing, when my point was that dps >> healing the way the system works now.

 

Also, by the same math you use, dmg is now stronger than it was pre 1.2. Where it now cancel each other out, before it got reduced (100+10%=110 110-10%=99).

 

So, my point stands, dps classes are now stronger than pre 1.2, healer classes are weaker. Add to that TTK is shorter, two out of 3 healing classes got nerfed, and you still get the same result, dps >> healing.

 

Add to that the fact that since TTK is now shorter, beeing able to pull someone back from the brink of death is hard, but since mara/sent give the healers an extra 5 seconds to pull that off, they become even stronger yet.

 

I didn't see your previous point, I started reading on the page where you were calling his math incorrect and I was merely offering you the explination of where he was coming from. He's not wrong, the tooltips are misleading. Damage did increase, but it's by an almost negligable amount (through expertise).

 

You're right though, as it stands this patch made life tough for heals. I see that as a good thing, they were too good. You actually have to use tanks now, where as before you could just heal and be self-suffecient and if you had a tank you were neigh un-killable. Good healers, at least the healers in my guild, still do amazing.

 

Sorcs could use a little bit of love, but other than that everything seems fine to me. Maybe a small cooldown on the sub 30% heal that OPs have (like 3-4 seconds or something).

Edited April 30, 2012 by Scoobings

[Brool]

I thought a pure DPS class was supposed to be one of the top damagers in the game. silly me.

[Tigalo]

I am a bit tired, so my logic might be faulty, but I have seen no counterargument regarding my reply to the OP as the reason to why mara/sent is now top dog in pvp.

 

 

I thought a pure DPS class was supposed to be one of the top damagers in the game. silly me.

 

Ofc they are, but, they should, by statement after statement by the devs only be max 5% above others. There are now a few very strong dps classes, mara/sent among them. But in the current pvp environment, with short TTKs, having strong defensive CDs is very important, both from a kill before beeing killed POV and from a "bring people back from the brink of death" POV. this brings them a bit out of line in hands of a competent player, not much, but a bit, in my highly personal and biased opinion. Mara/sent is the only class I do not have myself so I cant speak from experience of beeing one, only from experience of having faced them a lot, both before and after 1.2, and they seem stronger now than before. They were good before 1.2, they are even better now (in the hands of a good player).

Edited May 1, 2012 by Tigalo

[jolleebindu]

Its the one, which gives them aura "-99% brain efficency for all enemy human players in see radius and + 400% number exaggeration in form posts"

 

this made me lol

[Altruismo]

I see you both conveniently forget to mention healing, when my point was that dps >> healing the way the system works now.

 

Also, by the same math you use, dmg is now stronger than it was pre 1.2. Where it now cancel each other out, before it got reduced (100+10%=110 110-10%=99).

 

So, my point stands, dps classes are now stronger than pre 1.2, healer classes are weaker. Add to that TTK is shorter, two out of 3 healing classes got nerfed, and you still get the same result, dps >> healing.

 

Add to that the fact that since TTK is now shorter, beeing able to pull someone back from the brink of death is hard, but since mara/sent give the healers an extra 5 seconds to pull that off, they become even stronger yet.

 

Let's actually compare healing before, to healing now then, shall we?

 

Full BM pre 1.2 gave +12.62% healing.

BM in 1.2 gives 12.27% healing

Full WH in 1.2 gives +13.25% healing, which is more than it was even possible to get before.

 

So, with the best PVP gear in play, Damage has increased ~2.5% and Healing has increased ~0.6% meaning that damage has gained a net ~1.9% increase compared to healing from expertise.

As expertise continues to rise, the bonus to healing will continue to rise and damage and damage reduction will continue to cancel each other out.

So, if you want to know why we don't mention healing, it's because healing is an outright bonus - it's gravy and it just gets better as expertise goes up.

Look:

Two people with zero expertise fight each other, neither does any bonus damage to the other, neither has bonus healing.

Two people with full WH gear fight each other, neither does any bonus damage to the other, both have +13.26% healing.

 

The only place where expertise has resulted in a significant decrease in TTK is when someone with high expertise fights someone with low expertise, in which case the person with low expertise has no excuse: If you're wearing Recruit gear and you get attacked by someone in full Warhero, you only take 3.4% extra damage from their expertise.

 

two out of 3 healing classes got nerfed

And one got buffed, but we'll just pretend that didn't happen because it doesn't support your argument, right?

[fungihoujo]

- Expertise got buffed for damage dealers, which marauders were the strongest of

- Healing got heavily nerfed, and healing from expertise got heavily nerfed, and the ability to get heals off got heavily nerfed... overall, healers got completely bent over in pvp- this benefits marauders greatly as they not only kill faster without worrying about healers, but also have the best defensive CDs so they rely on healers far less than any other class to stay alive and killing

- marauders now have only one interruptable ability- ravage isn't anymore, only choke... which can't be interrupted by the person the mara is targetting-- compare that to some classes that have a dozen abilities that can be stunned, knockbacked, interrupted, etc....

- marauders still have the best mobility while dealing full damage- since they don't need to stand still for any of their big damagers other than ravage

- with the other two specs becoming good, marauders in Carnage can have high damage AND several roots, which are the only CC to go through resolve- compare to sorcs who can spec into at most ONE root, yet are supposedly the kings of CC

- ravage damage was boosted heavily, well geared marauders can crit ravage over 10k, while rooting the target

- almost every other class got severe nerfs, which makes them weaker... and thus, marauders stronger

- they were always OP in the hands of a well geared, highly skilled player... there just weren't many of them so few noticed- now, they're OP in the hands of a well geared, decent player, and no longer fodder in the hands of a bad

- they scale better than other classes with gear, so when better gear comes out they become stronger at a quicker rate

- they can execute faster, trauma debuff can't be cleansed

- buff to their accuracy debuff

 

 

These are only a few reasons why they're 'more' OP now- there's likely countless more.