Vanguard any good as a tank?

[briannotbryan]

I started a trooper out of curiosity to trying a new class. I was wondering if anyone can tell me if the Vanguard class is any good as a tank spec? I planned on using it for Ops, maybe PvP afterwards. If so, why? Or if not, why?

[Wallsie]

I started a trooper out of curiosity to trying a new class. I was wondering if anyone can tell me if the Vanguard class is any good as a tank spec? I planned on using it for Ops, maybe PvP afterwards. If so, why? Or if not, why?

 

Hell yes we are. I tank in our Hard Mode EC guild and we're already 2/4 even with attendance problems since the patch and plan to be at least 3/4 come Sunday.

 

You have a lot of tools as a VG tank, between two stuns, harpoon, a charge, stealth detection and the best aoe of any of the tank classes. The only downside is that our cooldowns are very lackluster. 25% damage reduction is a good one, but 20% accuracy debuff is very meh and 15% healing on a two minute timer is almost a waste of your time to worry about. The only thing it's good for is popping in conjunction with Smoke Grenade in order to take some strain off your healer so they can regen their force/energy/ammo during a light damage phase.

 

The thing about VG tanking is that we're somewhat gear-dependent. Our mitigation stats scale very well as we get better gear. On the plus side aggro generation is a little easier for us than for the other tanks seeing as we have a handful of abilities that we can generate threat and dps from range with. This really helps for those fights where there is a lot of movement going on.

 

If you want to play a trooper because it seems fun, knock yourself out. It really is a neat class and VG plays a little differently than any class I've played (other games included) so it hooked me. And if you're interested in pvp VG is a very strong class overall. Check out the sticky at the top of the forum regarding the Iron Fist spec since it's still pretty darn good.

[MuscarKrone]

As a Main Tank Vanguard in a group that is 4/4 in Hard Mode EC, Yes, Hell yes go with the Vanguard

 

As said above, we are VERY gear dependent opposed to other tank classes. We are not as good at taking big burst damage, but we excel at lengthy fights with consistent damage being done.

[briannotbryan]

Thanks, Wallsie and MuscarKrone, for the tips. I was also wondering if you guys had any tips for the skill tree? More specifically, where should I be putting points? Also, is being gear-dependent a negative or positive issue? IMO, wouldn't being gear dependent mean farming for gear? Which could be fun?

[evilxpoptart]

Go to the trooper main forums there are is a sticky.

[Wallsie]

I just did a writeup in this thread a day or two ago regarding leveling tips for spec and rotation. There's a sticky or a former sticky floating around here somewhere that's got mostly good info in it as well. I'll see if I can locate it.

 

As for being gear dependent, I haven't found it to be an issue. Just find some competent people to play with (specifically a healer) and know your class and it never becomes an issue. Also makes it that much sweeter when you get a new piece of gear.

[briannotbryan]

What are ppl talking about when they mention "mitigation" and "cooldown abilities"? I'm still confused about that.

[Fdzzaigl]

I think we have the best passive defence of any class tbh, although we don't have the great cooldowns of shadows and guardians.

 

That's an advantage sometimes, and a disadvantage at other times. In my experience, I usually seem to take less damage overall than the other tanks.

[me_unknown]

What are ppl talking about when they mention "mitigation" and "cooldown abilities"? I'm still confused about that.

 

my >50% damage reduction of kinetic and energy damage and my 9% (actually it is 19% due to my consular buff integrated in my class buff) dmg reduction of elemental and physical damage. Plus 4% damage reduction of all kind from targets i hit with ion pulse or surge explosion.

 

so my opponents actually do 54% / 23% less damage to me.

 

and i have my abilitites like our reactive shield which give us a flat 25% damage reduction for 12s.... or smoke granate....

[Wallsie]

What are ppl talking about when they mention "mitigation" and "cooldown abilities"? I'm still confused about that.

 

Mitigation is your ability to avoid taking damage, and cooldowns are the abilities you use that are usually on longer timers to give you a short buff to your ability to do something (take damage, deal damage, other miscellaneous utility). For VG, we get Reactive Shield, Smoke Grenade and Adrenaline Rush as our major cooldowns.

 

Mitigation stats you'll want to maximize as a VG tank in order from best to worst are Shield Absorption (increases how much damage you absorb when you shield an attack), then Shield Rating (increases your chance to shield an attack), then Defense rating (increases you chance to dodge an attack). Don't worry too much about Shield chance since we get a ton of it naturally on our gear. Likewise with Endurance - you'll have enough just by getting higher level gear. Absorb is the only stat you'll need to actively attempt to get more of, simply because we don't dodge a whole lot of attacks to begin with so it would take too much defense rating to make it a significant chance. Either way our defensive talents revolve around shielding attacks rather than dodging them.

 

This is all more geared toward max level info. As far as leveling is concerned, just take upgrades with more aim and bigger secondary stats. Whether they're defensive or offensive won't really make much difference (just avoid Alacrity, it does almost nothing for a shield spec VG). Just keep this stuff in mind for when you hit 50 and you start working on gearing the character up.

[Debrad]

Vanguard Tanks are certainly more than up to the task but it comes down to who is playing.

 

In EC the fights are rarely Tank'n'Spank so you need to be switched on. Especially for Dorn/Toth and the Tanks. Voice comms is certainly the way to go. I find that to do the best don't worry about burning down with DPS. Do what you have to do to maintain aggro but keep your rotation so you can maintain Ammo (taking into account your recharge abilities).

 

Also, who doesn't love the Rifle butt to the face (Or the crotch in regards to Dorn /Toth)

[DenitharPurloin]

Um...I am really confused by some of these responses.

 

How are any of you stating that a vanguard is GEAR DEPENDENT? when other tank classes can stack higher tanking attributes on any of their Mods better than we can? (with the exception of course to the mods on the new campaign gear)

 

When a fresh guardian or shadow can get +27 absorption on a 22 mod, and Vanguards can only get +11 absorption on a friekin 25B!!!!!!!!!!! That my friends is the exact OPPOSITE of gear dependent. It is gear-gimped.

 

Now, as for Vanguards in general, I think they can tank pretty much anything in the game at the moment. Can they do boss tanking as well as an equally geared (and well played) shadow or guardian? You must be on something good if you think they can. Don't get me wrong, they are great fun to play in their own right but I just don't see what everyone is so excited about (aside from PvP)

 

Play your Vanguard with pride (I do), treat your healer with respect. I have healed them all and VANGUARDS ARE A CHORE TO HEAL!

 

Those are pretty much the facts, every Vanguard that is successful in this game deserves every ounce of respect they get (and their healers as well). Our defense is poor, our shield/absorb eats up our skill tree points, and we now get to spam ion pulse for the absorption they took away from us. Yes, we may mitigate a little more than some others, but we take pretty much every shot that a boss throws at us, never mind bosses whose attacks are not effected by shields...

 

Anyway, play it...enjoy it...don't for ONE SECOND think you can't be replaced by a shadow or a guardian in a heartbeat. Play it well.

[Wallsie]

A lot of nonsense due to misunderstanding.

You pretty much contradicted yourself in the midst of your little rant there. The reason that shadows and guards are better single-target tanks is solely because of their better cooldown abilities. VGs are limited to a 25% damage reduction, 20% accuracy debuff, and 15% health regen over time. If any dev thought that was a good set of abilities for a tank, clearly they've never tanked.

 

That said, our mitigation picks up very quickly when we start stacking actual mitigation stats. My VG currently is sitting at 51% shield, 55.54% absorb and 11.82% defense. I still need to replace my garbage Rakata chest, my modified rakata gloves and gun, and get augment slots for chest, gloves, and head. That's a ton of room for stat stacking which makes us much more viable. We don't dodge anything unless the 20% accuracy debuff is on the enemy, so defense stacking is almost entirely a waste.

 

I don't know why you said anything about gear selection available to a fresh 50, since that has nothing to do with whether our class depends on gear to improve mitigation or not. Also not sure why you're complaining about "spamming ion shot" since Ion Pulse is an ability that is a regular part of your rotation anyway. The only time it feels like it's being spammed is the very beginning of the fight to build your stacks, and it's not that imperative since no boss uses a heavy ability before you can get off 6 or 7 GCDs.

 

Are we rough to heal? Moreso than the other two tanks (or at least shadow for sure, with their ridiculous amount of self-healing) absolutely. I know our guild healers have commented on it. I can't say anything about a guard tank for sure since I haven't been in an op with one since like my first op. That said, only a truly bad player would say that VG tanks are not viable. As long as you're using cooldowns at appropriate times and your healer cleanses the stuff he's supposed to you will never have problems with either threat or mitigation.

 

When it comes down to it, we have mitigation like a Warrior tank from Wow. We rely on our shield to decrease the damage from most attacks we take, but most attacks are going to hit. It's just a different style of tanking and if you don't like it choose another class.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Wallsie

[DenitharPurloin]

You pretty much contradicted yourself in the midst of your little rant there. The reason that shadows and guards are better single-target tanks is solely because of their better cooldown abilities. VGs are limited to a 25% damage reduction, 20% accuracy debuff, and 15% health regen over time. If any dev thought that was a good set of abilities for a tank, clearly they've never tanked.

 

That said, our mitigation picks up very quickly when we start stacking actual mitigation stats. My VG currently is sitting at 51% shield, 55.54% absorb and 11.82% defense. I still need to replace my garbage Rakata chest, my modified rakata gloves and gun, and get augment slots for chest, gloves, and head. That's a ton of room for stat stacking which makes us much more viable. We don't dodge anything unless the 20% accuracy debuff is on the enemy, so defense stacking is almost entirely a waste.

 

I don't know why you said anything about gear selection available to a fresh 50, since that has nothing to do with whether our class depends on gear to improve mitigation or not. Also not sure why you're complaining about "spamming ion shot" since Ion Pulse is an ability that is a regular part of your rotation anyway. The only time it feels like it's being spammed is the very beginning of the fight to build your stacks, and it's not that imperative since no boss uses a heavy ability before you can get off 6 or 7 GCDs.

 

Are we rough to heal? Moreso than the other two tanks (or at least shadow for sure, with their ridiculous amount of self-healing) absolutely. I know our guild healers have commented on it. I can't say anything about a guard tank for sure since I haven't been in an op with one since like my first op. That said, only a truly bad player would say that VG tanks are not viable. As long as you're using cooldowns at appropriate times and your healer cleanses the stuff he's supposed to you will never have problems with either threat or mitigation.

 

When it comes down to it, we have mitigation like a Warrior tank from Wow. We rely on our shield to decrease the damage from most attacks we take, but most attacks are going to hit. It's just a different style of tanking and if you don't like it choose another class.

 

 

Besides that look at WHY you get so much shield rating (it isn't from what you stack on clothing it is from your tree). ANY OTHER tank can stack MORE from their gear than we can...MORE...get it? BOTH OF THEM CAN STACK MORE ON THEIR GEAR!!!! That means Vanguards are the LEAST gear-dependent of the three tanks, LEAST GEAR DEPENDENT!!! Get it? (until people get the campaign gear which has "fixed mods")

 

I play it, I clear stuff with it. It is the hardest tank class to play of the 3, because we have the worst tanking abilities and I know because I DO play a healer as well, and didn't "hear it" from a guildy.

 

Read my last lines, you should be proud to tank well as a Vanguard, but it certainly isn't easy mode. I never said Vanguards couldn't do anything in the game, so stop rubbing your buttt like I hurt you, AND STOP PRAISING A TANK CLASS THAT IS BY FAR THE WORST IN THE GAME IF YOU EVER WANT TO SEE SOME IMPROVEMENTS TO IT!

Edited May 5, 2012 by Parali
reply to deleted comment "ton of tripe"

[Wallsie]

Besides that look at WHY you get so much shield rating (it isn't from what you stack on clothing it is from your tree). ANY OTHER tank can stack MORE from their gear than we can...MORE...get it? BOTH OF THEM CAN STACK MORE ON THEIR GEAR!!!! That means Vanguards are the LEAST gear-dependent of the three tanks, LEAST GEAR DEPENDENT!!! Get it? (until people get the campaign gear which has "fixed mods")

 

You obviously have no understanding of what the term "gear-dependent" means. It means that we require higher levels of gear to get better, and it is absolutely true in our case. The other two classes can perform fairly admirably at lower levels of gear than we can. I don't see how that's so hard for you to understand.

 

Like you said - we play it, we clear stuff with it. It obviously isn't as broken as you would like to think it is if we're capable of these things. I don't need to see major changes to the class and I'm not whining for them. Would I like to see some? Sure, I think you would find that most people would like to see changes to their class. That said, we're not that bad off as it stands so no harm no foul.

 

And if you don't like my words then refute them. Calling your post a ton of tripe was accurate. If I had referred to it as nonsense or rubbish (synonyms for tripe), then you wouldn't have even known the difference. Reporting is a coward's way out. Whichever one of you mods edited my quote, kindly keep your fingers to yourself.

[DenitharPurloin]

You obviously have no understanding of what the term "gear-dependent" means. It means that we require higher levels of gear to get better, and it is absolutely true in our case. The other two classes can perform fairly admirably at lower levels of gear than we can. I don't see how that's so hard for you to understand.

 

Like you said - we play it, we clear stuff with it. It obviously isn't as broken as you would like to think it is if we're capable of these things. I don't need to see major changes to the class and I'm not whining for them. Would I like to see some? Sure, I think you would find that most people would like to see changes to their class. That said, we're not that bad off as it stands so no harm no foul.

 

And if you don't like my words then refute them. Calling your post a ton of tripe was accurate. If I had referred to it as nonsense or rubbish (synonyms for tripe), then you wouldn't have even known the difference. Reporting is a coward's way out. Whichever one of you mods edited my quote, kindly keep your fingers to yourself.

 

No mate I don't report anyone, never have never will. Anyway, I think we agree that we can do anything needed on our Vanguards, I just think that we deserve a pat on our own backs as players more so than the other two tanking classes which I would describe as "easy mode" (at least to a player that takes the time to understand the other two tanking class abilities).

 

Sorry I came off a bit strong in my post, but I have really been mad at the mod ratios given to Troopers for a long time. To call a mod a 25B and give the ratios of an A really gets my goat. At least with the campaign gear this oversight has been corrected (and hopefully going forward).

 

Anywho, Moderators should leave posts alone when the person quoted has no beef with the person quoting. I am cool with whatever was stated, so chill moderators...mkay?

[Wallsie]

I can agree with that. After leveling a knight to 50 and seeing the variety of choices they get from the daily rewards on Belsavis it frustrates me considering our only choice is between a few points of power/crit/defense/whatever.

 

I came off as a bit of a jerk there so I apologize for that. I just get irked when mods jump in for no reason.

[Canmore]

i know denithar really well , he is a blunt new yorker but has good intentions and nobody can number crunch like him when it comes to the details on what a vanguard can do , my two cents and my vanguard is only level 40 atm , untill we have something in the skill tree to reduce the cool down on reactive shield so the cool down is significantly reduced we wil allways struggle compared to a guardian and a well played shadow on big bosses .as things stand we are too open to the big hits and anything thats not mitigated with basic armour eats us up ,

[Wallsie]

i know denithar really well , he is a blunt new yorker but has good intentions and nobody can number crunch like him when it comes to the details on what a vanguard can do , my two cents and my vanguard is only level 40 atm , untill we have something in the skill tree to reduce the cool down on reactive shield so the cool down is significantly reduced we wil allways struggle compared to a guardian and a well played shadow on big bosses .as things stand we are too open to the big hits and anything thats not mitigated with basic armour eats us up ,

 

Well we'll agree to disagree on the numbers thing to avoid having another useless confrontation in this thread, but to the second point - a CD reduction to Reactive Shield would be nice, but frankly I think we need either a better or an extra self-heal CD (VG only, make it instant?) or we need to be able to increase our shield chance for a short time (think 6 seconds maybe). We know we don't dodge jack so we're gonna take hits, but if we could guaranteed drop the damage on a big spike ability by 50% (hell my absorb is well over 63% with full Power Screen stacks) that would go a long way to increasing our survivability over the course of a fight. Or maybe the ability to talent Reactive Shield so it nullifies more damage - 2 points for 6 or 8% more? Just tossing it out there.

[briannotbryan]

Wow, I didn't think my question would get this much feeback but I wanna thank you guys for your input. I've read all your responses and will take these things into consideration. I'm lagging on lvling my Tank atm since I'm gearing up my main Sentinel for HM's/OPs but I'm having fun playing out the story so far.

[_gideon]

What changed in 1.2 to switch the consensus from vanguard > shadow > guardian over to shadow > guardian > vanguard?

 

Not that I ever supported the consensus view.

[CitizenFry]

One interesting thing I just realized last night while I was off-tanking HM KP: as a Vanguard, I can use one of my cooldowns (Smoke Grenade) to help the main tank. This was pretty helpful when Foreman Crusher did his frenzies. I don't know whether Shadows and Guardians can help another tank or not.

 

I'm pretty sure I want to get Absorb Augments in all of my augment slots, that stat seems to scale very favorably.

[MatticusFinch]

Just to chime in my two cents: vanguard tanks are more than capable. My guild has synced our raid combat logs using MOXparser and the interesting thing is how much more damage I do as the vanguard tank compared to the shadow/guardian tank I'm running with. It's quite significant, actually, on the order of 50-75k for a boss fight. So there are definitely valid points about cooldown issues here (I honestly don't even use smoke grenade), but in exchange for our defenses we seem to be much harder hitting, which helps us lose aggro less.

 

So, I know what I just said sounds like a counter-point to being a good tank, but I've never had a problem surviving compared to the shadow/guardian that I rotate with for our raids. My healers haven't ever complained to me, at least not yet, but that might be because they are patient.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I can't think of a time where I've lost a battle 1v1 in warzones against a juggernaut of any kind or tank assassin in shield specialist.

[dcgregorya]

Vanguards are very good tanks. I was tanking hardmode Ops with tionese gear mixed with crafted blues just to give you an idea of how decent of a tank they are.

 

Vanguards are very *consistent* tanks, because they don't really use defense much. Their tanking comes from damage reduction. Armor of 50%+, shield of 50%+, absorb of 50%+ and keeping accuracy debuff on cooldown you'll have a fairly consistent intake of damage. As a result, you are not as dependent on stacking massive amounts of endurance (I try to stay around 21k). You can therefore increase your TPS by quite a bit by mod swapping and stack absorb by enhancement swapping.

 

Are there some bosses where a shadow will outperform? Yes. But overall vanguards bring a lot to the table. The annoying part is the itemization - to get the most out of the class you really have to modify the gear quite a bit.

[dcgregorya]

What changed in 1.2 to switch the consensus from vanguard > shadow > guardian over to shadow > guardian > vanguard?

 

Not that I ever supported the consensus view.

 

Misread your post. Vanguards are very good. I think the tanks are actually quite balanced but I know that I'm the preferred tank because I don't lose aggro and I'm very easy to heal. People who use combat log parsers will notice the same things we noticed :

 

1) Vanguards do more damage.

2) Vanguards are consistent in damage intake.

3) Vanguards have less valuable cooldowns but require cooldowns much less.

Edited May 11, 2012 by dcgregorya