Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[JeramieCrowe]

DH, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness here, but really, many of these people are stuffed so deep inside the WoW box that they cannot possibly think outside of it. But, keep up the good work.

[DarkHelsing]

DH, I admire your stick-to-it-tiveness here, but really, many of these people are stuffed so deep inside the WoW box that they cannot possibly think outside of it. But, keep up the good work.

 

lol, thanks for the words of support!

[DarthKhaos]

My Proposal: Players want to PvP, they can, and they never have to PvE if they don't want to. However, if they want to PvE for a break in their routine, their gear isn't so far behind that they are so gimp no one will take them.

Current System: If you PvP and that's what you like to do, and you want to take a break for a night and PvE in a Raid, you can't without being FORCED into Raiding more than you want to in order to get the gear to make anything you do worth while enough to be invited.

 

So which one forces players again?

 

My Way - The gear is much closer, and if PvPers want to PvE for a break, they can with a much less gear penalty difference than what's currently in place.

Their Way - You can't just take a break and go, you have to endure the path you don't like very much just so on the off chance that you feel like doing it down the road, you'll be geared enough to get an invite.

There's a difference with experiencing the content and dominating it. I'm going to use your example. The player PvPs and wishes to PvE for a break. They can indulge in the starter PvE content I mean he PvPs so haven't been there. He/she can experience the low end content, hell if he/she has the top end PvP gear they can go to any of the regular raids and experience the content because they're just here for the sights. They wouldn't have the best DPS, the most effective tanking or healing abilities and they wouldn't be leet but they can enjoy the sights. I mean this isn't what they REALLY wanna do thay just want a break.

Let's look at the other end. They normally PvE and they want to PvP. They can have the best or worst PvE gear and still enter ANY PvP match, have a PvP experience because they just want to break from the norm. Nothing is stopping them.

 

Let's stop beating around the bush. You don't want to just do it for a break from the norm. You want to dominate PvP. You want to have the best gear allowing you to, as they say, face roll the competition because of your high end gear. What you do not want is to have a situation where you would be at a disadvantage for any period of time. So you wish to PvE where the enemy is scripted and tuned to your gear level. You want to skip the "hard times" and jump straight to the top dog spot. Not getting my vote.

 

They can. Using fictional numbers (NOT REAL VALUES) - If a Raid takes 2 hours for 8 people to clear, not including grouping up and finding everybody that's needed, if it takes 2 hours and the average is everyone gets 1 piece of gear. If it takes 2 hours of solid WZs, not including que times, if it takes 2 hours and the average reward rate is everyone gets 1 piece of gear.... this is accomplish-able.

Using your example again PvErs will feel forced to PvP. They don't spend 2hrs to get 1 piece of gear. They spend 1 day (per hard mode flashpoint) or 1 week ( per raid) to get one piece of gear. So to get the gear faster (and mark my words they want the gear faster even though they'll cry that they're bored and there's nothing to do and no reason to PvE or PvP because they already have the best gear) they'll feel like they need to do both. Hell some guilds and the idiot pug groups will start putting even more insane gear stipulations for entries (not saying it's right just saying what will happen) because you CAN get the gear faster through BOTH PvE & PvP together.

 

Do you get it now? There's a reason for lockouts and world boss respawn time in these games. To manage Progression Rate. I've explained to you why PvP has a shorter Progression Rate initially and any system you put in that uses the same gear will piss off either PvPers, PvErs or both in the short and or long run.

Edited May 17, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[mikedee]

It is needed. Because raiders think that they should have better gear than PvPers. It is like this in every game with the PvErs. If we didn't have expertise they would all moan that people can get top "PvE" gear from pvping. When the gear is actually shared with both pve and pvp. So we have a stat they don't.

[Jadescythe]

No, not correct. And that's my point about not being able to continue this debate with you. I feel I've made it very very very clear that I am ok with many options, as long as the options re-bridge the gigantic gap that patch 1.2 created between PvE gear and PvP gear. I've even stated that going back to pre 1.2 would be better than it is now. Patch 1.2 went off in the complete opposite direction that I care to see. But no, I'm not "stuck on one desire". The difference between PvE and PvP went to far in patch 1.2, any suggestion that brings that gap back closer together I am for. But no, it does not have to be the same gear. I'd personally prefer (and I've stated this many times) that the gear be split up between the two paths - equipment rewards are hollow husks and only for "looks", each path offers different looking gear; then the reward system for progression is based off everything you put into your gear, hilts, crystals, armoring, etc., and PvE rewards different stat'd mods than PvP offers (like how there's 3-4 different types of each mod, so PvE offers 1 and 2, while PvP offers 3 and 4). But again, that's just one suggestion, I happen to like it, but I'm not closed off to any other suggestions that help remove and prevent what they did in Patch 1.2.

 

I'm just clarifying, so correct me again if I'm missing your point. Your basic argument is that you'd like the gap between PVE and PVP gear to be closer. This could be done by redoing the entire system or by simply making expertise less effective and therefore making non expertise gear more effective. Is that correct?

 

My response assuming this is correct:

I agree with the devs that PVE and PVP should be completely separate gear sets. The reason they made expertise so meaningful is that PVE gear was equally as effective as PVP gear and better in some cases. I feel their idea of adding recruit gear which requires no previous PVP experience made PVP accessible to those who do not participate often. I personally believe that recruit gear is viable for level 50 PVP if you purchase the entire set, but I could understand if they made the gap between recruit and BM a little closer.

 

Having mods that are rewarded either for PVP or PVE based on what is more useful could work, but most likely you would have to participate in both types of play to get the BiS mods. What the devs feel is best for PVP may not be the same way I feel and would not truly separate the two realms, meaning players would have to do something at end game they do not enjoy to get the stats they want. I'm not saying your idea couldn't work, expertise just does the same thing(separating PVE and PVP) without any doubt that you'll have to do one to gear for the other.

 

I wasn't sure if you meant that PVP and PVE would only be able to get the rewards for that path or not, but if you meant they were just "marked" for that gameplay, but could be purchased through the other path then that is a differet problem. That is where a balance has to be found in obtaining gear at the same rate to prevent one from being better than the other. This would be fine in an ideal world, but is not practical and the fastest route will always be to do some of both.

[DarthKhaos]

You know how long I've been trying to get that point across Jadescythe? PvPers and PvErs will never agree on the same progression rate. The difference in full BM & full WH is small and players in full BM can and often do win against players in full WH. The difference is a bit wider with augments in crafted WH set but it's expensive and a lot of people don't have it.

Because players can get to BM gear quickly matches are more about player skill than gear. PvE does not move up in tier that fast and do not have to because the enemies they face are tuned for their gear level unlike PvP. And no matter how large your pool is you will always at some point in time every day have mismatch in gear level of players or you'll have REALLY long queues.

[Creedys]

Let's stop beating around the bush. You don't want to just do it for a break from the norm. You want to dominate PvP. You want to have the best gear allowing you to, as they say, face roll the competition because of your high end gear. What you do not want is to have a situation where you would be at a disadvantage for any period of time. So you wish to PvE where the enemy is scripted and tuned to your gear level. You want to skip the "hard times" and jump straight to the top dog spot. Not getting my vote.

 

Bingo.

 

People need to understand one simple fact; I don't want your PvE. You can keep it and be top dog there; the purpose of expertise is so people that have put no time and effort into PvPing to aquire gear cannot waltz into a warzone actin' all billy bad ***. Expertise goes both ways; as a PvPer, I can't waltz into PvE actin' like I'm the ****. I have put no time into PvE and if expertise was removed, I could do that.

 

Do you see PvPers wanting to do that in PvE? I'd hope not.

 

TIme invested into a particular part of the game should equal a benefit (AKA, you get out what you put in). Expertise is not about class balancing, folks.

 

Its about not forcing people into drudging through content they don't want to, just to remain competitive in the area they enjoy.

 

If you remove expertise, PvEers will be FORCED into PvP, and PvPers will be FORCED into PvE, because doing both offers the maximum gain for aquiring gear.

 

No, no, no.

[clickonce]

The house is burning down and you people are arguing about the color of the drapes.

 

With current populations and Q times, I would say the merits/issues around expertise are irrelevant.

 

What you should be clamoring for is server-merges & x-server.

[DarthKhaos]

The house is burning down and you people are arguing about the color of the drapes.

 

With current populations and Q times, I would say the merits/issues around expertise are irrelevant.

 

What you should be clamoring for is server-merges & x-server.

That's a completely different discussion being address in another ... many other threads. This discussion is very important in it's own right. At the core it's about allowing a player to play as they want. However some differ how that should be achieved. IMO it'll be more harmful to remove expertise. I have outlined why also provided counter points to those who view otherwise. i am yet to see anyone show me how allowing players to achieve virtually the same gear via PvP & PvE would NOT cause a situation where players would feel forced to do both to keep up when they clearly only want to do one or the other.

 

Note the current system those who want to do both are doing both and those who don't do not have to.

[JeramieCrowe]

You know how long I've been trying to get that point across Jadescythe? PvPers and PvErs will never agree on the same progression rate. The difference in full BM & full WH is small and players in full BM can and often do win against players in full WH. The difference is a bit wider with augments in crafted WH set but it's expensive and a lot of people don't have it.

Because players can get to BM gear quickly matches are more about player skill than gear. PvE does not move up in tier that fast and do not have to because the enemies they face are tuned for their gear level unlike PvP. And no matter how large your pool is you will always at some point in time every day have mismatch in gear level of players or you'll have REALLY long queues.

 

And what about the next patch that adds even more powerful gear? And then the one after that? Then the next one? Why do you keep failing to take into account inflation?

 

I, for one, do not want separate brackets at 50. But that's where this game is headed yet again.

[xxdragonragexx]

And what about the next patch that adds even more powerful gear? And then the one after that? Then the next one? Why do you keep failing to take into account inflation?

 

I, for one, do not want separate brackets at 50. But that's where this game is headed yet again.

 

When MMO adds new tiers of gear, the current ones become very easy to gain. For example, recruit gear is as good as champion gear. Before we have BM > Champ > Centurion. Now we have WarHero, BM, Recruit gear. There will always going to be 3 tiers. So I seriously doubt they will separate the level 50 brackets.

[Asturias]

0 - It is needed

 

I could care less about running operations. I could care less about running Hardmodes. Doing my dailies on Corellia is like pulling teeth.

 

I will never have the sort of no pvp gear that the carebears on my server will have.

 

Expertise guanrtees that all their riad gear means nothing in a warzone. Just as my pvp gear won't be enough to let me compete in a nightmare mode, their raid gear won't be enough to let them compete in PVP.

 

This, I couldn't agree more. PvP and PVE are totally different animals altogether and I say earn your keep but hey most PVEers do Pre-made groups anyways so they eventually get the PvP gear quick if not faster than most PvPers.

[DarthKhaos]

And what about the next patch that adds even more powerful gear? And then the one after that? Then the next one? Why do you keep failing to take into account inflation?

 

I, for one, do not want separate brackets at 50. But that's where this game is headed yet again.

I haven't. You missed some of my previous posts where I talked about that and I will repeat. Just as with 1.2 when the next set comes out the old ones get pushed down the totem pole. Recruit will become non existent or the stats will become that of the Battle Master stats making Battle Master go away. Then War Hero will be available with only warzone comms the progression rate to War Hero will be the same as the old progression rate to Battle Master making the new <insert name here> the new top PvP gear to get. New players to pvp will be in the same position as new players to pvp now. Short grind to the Intermediate gear that will make them competitive with a really long gear to get the crem al la crem.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[JeramieCrowe]

When MMO adds new tiers of gear, the current ones become very easy to gain. For example, recruit gear is as good as champion gear. Before we have BM > Champ > Centurion. Now we have WarHero, BM, Recruit gear. There will always going to be 3 tiers. So I seriously doubt they will separate the level 50 brackets.

 

This makes no sense. So when more powerful gear is added again, and then again, and then again, Recruit gear will become completely obsolete?

 

How does that even remotely make sense?

[JeramieCrowe]

I haven't. You missed some of my previous posts where I talked about that and I will repeat. Just as with 1.2 when the next set comes out the old ones get pushed down the totem pole. Recruit will become non existent or the stats will become that of the Battle Master stats making Battle Master go away. Then War Hero will be available with only warzone comms the progression rate to War Hero will be the same as the old progression rate to Battle Master making the new <insert name here> the new top PvP gear to get. New players to pvp will be in the same position as new players to pvp now. Short grind to the Intermediate gear that will make them competitive with a really long gear to get the crem al la crem.

 

Which, to prevent a HUGE discrepancy between 49 and 50, it would have to trickle all the way down to level 1 gear, thus raising the bar on it all. Again, not a very feasible solution to prevent GvG.

 

Have we forgotten open-world PvP is coming?

[Lugh]

I find it hilarious that 57% of you are bads.

 

[JeramieCrowe]

I find it hilarious that 57% of you are bads.

 

 

Way to be classy.

[DarkHelsing]

There's a difference with experiencing the content and dominating it. I'm going to use your example. The player PvPs and wishes to PvE for a break. They can indulge in the starter PvE content I mean he PvPs so haven't been there. He/she can experience the low end content, hell if he/she has the top end PvP gear they can go to any of the regular raids and experience the content because they're just here for the sights. They wouldn't have the best DPS, the most effective tanking or healing abilities and they wouldn't be leet but they can enjoy the sights. I mean this isn't what they REALLY wanna do thay just want a break.

 

Ok, addressing this first. I think this is good light to be able to state where my point is at.

 

At level 40 if I wanted to do a FP, I could. If I wanted to PvP I could. If I found a piece of gear I liked in a FP I could use it. If I earned enough tokens in a WZ I could buy a piece. It worked just fine at level 40, just fine.

 

So, my point is, no matter what you do, Path A or Path B, you still progress down the same road. The way it is now, you MUST DO BOTH EVENTS in order to progress. So, if you like casual PvP every Friday but Raid Saturday - Thursday, your PvP events on Friday are going to blow, because there's no possible way you'll be able to defeat the people that out gear you. I don't Raid, I don't PvE, I am PvPer from day one of Ultima Online. I don't want a "freebie" kill because the poor sap doesn't have good enough gear. I want the kill because the poor sap was unable to defeat me - that's true pure PvP, anyone that says otherwise is compensating for something.

 

So, if you join a WZ and you are full WH just like me, I could give a rats *** about how you got that gear; I wouldn't care if you got it Raiding, I wouldn't care if you got it PvPing, it doesn't matter to me, not one bit.

 

If the game didn't spend 49 levels teaching you how to play it, just to change everything you know and loved, I wouldn't be having this debate. If you spent 49 levels forced down one path of progression, then that would simply be how the game is... but big surprise, you spend 49 levels having the freedom to choose what you feel like doing, and the you get slapped in the face at level 50 with little to do, and being forced to pick.

 

If I am a raider, and every Friday I want to PvP, guess what, every Friday I'll be getting destroyed by nothing more than the gear gap.

 

Using your "dominating" statement, if everyone can dominate - than no one can, so there wouldn't be any dominating.

 

 

Let's look at the other end. They normally PvE and they want to PvP. They can have the best or worst PvE gear and still enter ANY PvP match, have a PvP experience because they just want to break from the norm. Nothing is stopping them.

Quote from James Ohlen;

Unfortunately, this also meant that players stepping into PvP with a fresh level 50 who has no expertise will be destroyed by players with expertise, leading to a very frustrating experience (and this experience was already pretty rough prior to patch 1.2).

 

Yeah, that's a fun way to take your break.

 

Let's stop beating around the bush. You don't want to just do it for a break from the norm. You want to dominate PvP.

If you and I have the same gear, that's not possible. There's nothing behind that argument, it doesn't even make sense.

 

You want to have the best gear allowing you to, as they say, face roll the competition because of your high end gear.

 

Actually that is what is going on now, quoted right from the director, many suggestions here stop that completely.

 

What you do not want is to have a situation where you would be at a disadvantage for any period of time. So you wish to PvE where the enemy is scripted and tuned to your gear level. You want to skip the "hard times" and jump straight to the top dog spot. Not getting my vote.

 

Hmm, that worked just fine for you for 49 levels, why is it at level 50 all the sudden that doesn't work for you?

 

Using your example again PvErs will feel forced to PvP. They don't spend 2hrs to get 1 piece of gear. They spend 1 day (per hard mode flashpoint) or 1 week ( per raid) to get one piece of gear. So to get the gear faster (and mark my words they want the gear faster even though they'll cry that they're bored and there's nothing to do and no reason to PvE or PvP because they already have the best gear) they'll feel like they need to do both. Hell some guilds and the idiot pug groups will start putting even more insane gear stipulations for entries (not saying it's right just saying what will happen) because you CAN get the gear faster through BOTH PvE & PvP together.

Again with the whole "they don't spend 2 hours, they spend 1 day" stuff. I don't know how to explain this more clearly than BLAH = 1 Piece of Gear from Raiding / and BLAH = 1 Piece of Gear from PvP - BLAH = BLAH, same time, same, same, same, same, what ever BLAH is, it is the same. 1 Day, 1 Week, 1 Year, 35 Decades... pick one, it's a fictitious number.

 

The BLAH formula worked just fine for everyone for 49 levels, 50 doesn't have to be different.

 

Do you get it now? There's a reason for lockouts and world boss respawn time in these games. To manage Progression Rate. I've explained to you why PvP has a shorter Progression Rate initially and any system you put in that uses the same gear will piss off either PvPers, PvErs or both in the short and or long run.

 

All you have to do is look at more things. PvP and PvE do NOT need different progression times. World Bosses can't spawn millions of credits instead?

 

Or even doing all the Raids, getting all the gear, having the Lockouts in place can also Lockout their progression in PvP. This is not a hard concept.

 

Let's make up some numbers;

 

Let's decide that PvE has 5 Raids each with a week Lockout. Each Raid contains 20 Marks Towards Gear. You Raid all 5, get all 100 Marks that were achieved or rewarded, and you're locked out for a week. What do you do? Sit on your butt? Play Diablo 3? You decide to PvP.

100 Total Raids Marks = 100% Weekly Gear Progression

Do 1 Raid = 20% of your Gear Progression for the week

Do 3 Raids = 60% of your Gear Progression for the week

Do all 5 Raids = 100% of your Gear Progression for the week

You decide to jump into a PvP game at 100% Gear Progression and you just are flat out not going to be able to earn gear for the rest of the week via PvP. You can still grind Valor, earn some extra credits, help unlock some Legacy stuff, but your Gear Progression is Caped. Done, I just balanced it with an idea off the top of my head.

 

PvP has a Gear Progression of 100 Marks per week. Those marks are earned via how well you do in the WZ. If you earn all 100 Marks for the week, and then you decide to Raid, you are not going to advance in Gear. You can still earn credits, Legacy Unlocks, speeder drops and such, but not gear progression.

 

Crappy idea or not, that's just one idea that just came to thought. So, the bottom line is, it can be done.

Edited May 18, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarthKhaos]

Which, to prevent a HUGE discrepancy between 49 and 50, it would have to trickle all the way down to level 1 gear, thus raising the bar on it all. Again, not a very feasible solution to prevent GvG.

 

Have we forgotten open-world PvP is coming?

Dude in its current state a level 49 has no chance against a level 50 even in recruit gear. and if you think a non expertise system is going to fix that you're deluding yourself. Let me ask you what you just asked me. What's going to happen to the gear difference without expertise when new tier stuff comes out? It's STILL going to increase for a level 49 to 50. The difference is there's also going to be an increased gap for new level 50's and older ones nlike the expertise system where new level 50 can easily get gear that doesn't make them a complete faceroll.

 

Ok, addressing this first. I think this is good light to be able to state where my point is at.

 

At level 40 if I wanted to do a FP, I could. If I wanted to PvP I could. If I found a piece of gear I liked in a FP I could use it. If I earned enough tokens in a WZ I could buy a piece. It worked just fine at level 40, just fine.

 

So, my point is, no matter what you do, Path A or Path B, you still progress down the same road. The way it is now, you MUST DO BOTH EVENTS in order to progress. So, if you like casual PvP every Friday but Raid Saturday - Thursday, your PvP events on Friday are going to blow, because there's no possible way you'll be able to defeat the people that out gear you. I don't Raid, I don't PvE, I am PvPer from day one of Ultima Online. I don't want a "freebie" kill because the poor sap doesn't have good enough gear. I want the kill because the poor sap was unable to defeat me - that's true pure PvP, anyone that says otherwise is compensating for something.

 

So, if you join a WZ and you are full WH just like me, I could give a rats *** about how you got that gear; I wouldn't care if you got it Raiding, I wouldn't care if you got it PvPing, it doesn't matter to me, not one bit.

 

If the game didn't spend 49 levels teaching you how to play it, just to change everything you know and loved, I wouldn't be having this debate. If you spent 49 levels forced down one path of progression, then that would simply be how the game is... but big surprise, you spend 49 levels having the freedom to choose what you feel like doing, and the you get slapped in the face at level 50 with little to do, and being forced to pick.

 

If I am a raider, and every Friday I want to PvP, guess what, every Friday I'll be getting destroyed by nothing more than the gear gap.

 

Using your "dominating" statement, if everyone can dominate - than no one can, so there wouldn't be any dominating.

You appear to love to use the 10-49 bracket as a lifeline when the line is not tied to anything. You talk about progressing in the 10-49 bracket but what's the progress and in what way? Progress is leveling and just in-case you don't know rate of progress in PvP is different than in PvE. Second let's look at the gear in said 10-49 bracket. A level 14, 24, 36 & 46 weapon, level 20 & 40 armors. THAT'S IT. Who got the best gear while leveling in the 10-49 bracket... Wait for it... The PvErs. You got level 20 armor from pvp and the level 21 from Athis is better. Hell did you know the level 21 Athis weapon is better than the level 24 one? Didn't know that did you. (Well at least for my Sorcerer when I looked) For those who level via PvP and have no wish to PvE they have 2 options PvE to get better gear to remain competitive or get rolled by PvErs. But that's what you want isn't it?

 

Now what is the progress @ level 50? It's not leveling up. It's gear. And YOU may not give a rats ***** where a PvPer gets his gear from but let's face it you're not the only one here. A lot and I mean a LOT of players will be upset that (as they say) "You can lose your way to the top raiding gear". I've already explained to you why they have lockouts and world boss spawn times in MMO's and if you impose those type of restrictions in PvP you're going to have one dead aspect of the game.

 

The funny thing is the current system is suited more for casual than hardcore gamers. The majority of Casual gamers chose one because they just don't have the time. Both PvP & PvE require time and effort in learning about what must be done. Be it boss fights or class mechanics. Also if a casual gamer chooses to PvE they deal with mobs tailored to their gear level. If they decide to PvP they have a short progression to the Intermediate Gear and can hold their own because the gear difference between Intermediate and Advance is small.

With both sides giving the same gear the gap is larger. Intermediate gear can't compete with Advance gear because the difference in level is greater. It has to be for PvE or you get people skipping content for faster progression. Now they spend a much much much longer time getting to the point they are competitive. IE: Basic to Advanced as opposed to Basic to Intermediate.

 

The game didn't change everything you "know and love" when you hit 50. You just need to get expertise gear if you want to PvP. How is this rocket science? You just want PvE to keep dominating PvP as in the 10-49 bracket as I showed how it already does. If every friday you get destroyed it is because you refuse to get PvP gear no other reason. Buy the recruit gear and work on Battle Master in a week or two, three max depending on how often you PvP you will have a full set of Battle Master gear and you wouldn't get crushed as you say.

 

You quote James Ohlen but he is saying the same thing all of those for Expertise have been trying to tell you. GET THE EXPERTISE GEAR.

 

Also for your information I was wearing my level 20 PvP gear all the way to level 40 on my PvP character because I don't PvE. I was crushed and beaten down on because I didn't PvE. Yea that's what you want...

 

Crappy idea or not, that's just one idea that just came to thought. So, the bottom line is, it can be done.

Answer me this. How many people continue raiding after they've exhausted their weekly progression? Not a whole lot. You still need to understand the nature of the beast. The majority of players are not going to do something without some sort of reward or progression. So if after raiding they can't get any progression from PvP most just are not going to do it. This would hurt the game more. Now we include the thing I've kept mentioning to you. What PvPers expect as an acceptable progression rate PvErs would not and vice versa. Let's top it off with what JeramieCrowe talked about. New gear with new expansions. You're increasing the gap between new level 50's and existing ones. Screw the 49's the level 50's will be F'ed for a long long long time. That gap is ok for PvE but not PvP.

 

Bottom line the two things are vastly different in nature. Both in how it is executed and the mentality of those who love to do it. Trying to homogenize it will cause a lot of unhappy people.

[Jadescythe]

Here is my last response for this thread:

 

Point: PVP should be purely skill based, gear shouldn't matter

Response: Gear will always be there in a PVE based game, even if PVP does not have its own stat, so this point is moot unless you use a system to make everyone the same, thereby taking away customization.

 

Point: PVP gear is too difficult to obtain

Response: Matter of opinion, but the devs clearly saw the gear gap at the start and introduced recruit gear to fill that need. If its still too big, then narrow the gap by adding more expertise to the recruit gear and be done with it.

 

Point: PVE should give access to PVP

Response: No it shouldn't and it never has. Even in the 10-49 bracket, PVP gear was not possible to obtain outside of PVP. Not that it mattered, PVE gear was still better than the stuff purchased from the PVP vendor anyway. The progression will never be equal without cutting people off from progressing in one by setting a limit as you suggested DH. Since I am paying every month for this game, I would prefer to leave as much to do for myself after 50 as possible, not make it even easier to finish the game. PVP has replay value in itself, every fight is different and there are live people on the other side. If I mainly PVP, once I have cleared EV one time, what keeps me coming back? I got all the gear I needed PVPing, so I skipped straight to HM or NM even. Don't cut out my content simply because some people don't want to spend time playing different parts of the game. Everyone is in such a rush to get done with everything as fast as possible that they no longer play because there is nothing to do anymore. Let's not make this even more dramatic by reducing half the game's progression opportunity.

 

I really do appreciate everyone who has contributed on both sides. I have gained something from everyone (well most people) who have posted and appreciate the spirited debate. I just can't keep spending this much time here (gotta do work at some point, lol). Keep the poll going and vote if you haven't already!

[DarkDruidSS]

Endless debate is endless... this is turning out to go down like every religious or political thread I have ever seen.

[JediDuckling]

Vote:

 

It is needed - 126 votes - 57.27%

It is not needed - 94 votes - 42.73%

 

 

To clear up some confusion - The Removal of Expertise would require changes to the current system.

 

If you like the current system, the way things are currently implemented, the way things are currently working, and how Expertise fits into all of it, then your vote would be "It is needed".

 

If you do not like the current system and would like to see a different system that has Expertise removed from it, then your vote would be "It is not needed".

 

Thank you.

 

Start with one of the above choices in your post, I'll keep tally of the votes. Underneath your vote add why you feel the way you feel, please be as in depth as possible, avoid Flaming, and just place your point-of-view as to your vote. Help me out by not voting more than once, because that would only slow down the tally process.

 

I'll start this off with my response.

 

removing expertise will not only remove a progression system but also make it so the raiders will dominate the warzones.

removing expertise would be the stupidest idea yet if bioware do decide remove expertise

[DarthKhaos]

Jadescythe I wonder if they'll ever understand. The 10-49 bracket isn't balanced no matter what they do with the bolster system. I can tell you this if we had more players pvping they'd have more brackets than just one 10-49 bracket. Also PvE gear rules the 10-49 bracket unless you stack expertise @ level 46... Maybe they do understand and they just don't want to admit that they want an advantage.

[DarkDruidSS]

Jadescythe I wonder if they'll ever understand. The 10-49 bracket isn't balanced no matter what they do with the bolster system. I can tell you this if we had more players pvping they'd have more brackets than just one 10-49 bracket. Also PvE gear rules the 10-49 bracket unless you stack expertise @ level 46... Maybe they do understand and they just don't want to admit that they want an advantage.

 

The expertise at level 46 is so bad it's almost pointless. By the time you are at the point you can be rocking all blues mods anyway... like I am on my 45 sniper and just rip through people in 1 rotation. Especially if they don't have heavy armor on. I think the combined expertise at 46 is like .52% or the 1 time I did to that I remember it being less than 2% for sure. Expertise before level 50 is just not needed... just have gear at your level and you are unstoppable 40+.

 

I do agree that the bolster mechanic these people keep praising is severely flawed and for whatever reason these people choose to deny that reality.