Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[oompadouche]

0 - It is needed

 

I could care less about running operations. I could care less about running Hardmodes. Doing my dailies on Corellia is like pulling teeth.

 

I will never have the sort of no pvp gear that the carebears on my server will have.

 

Expertise guanrtees that all their riad gear means nothing in a warzone. Just as my pvp gear won't be enough to let me compete in a nightmare mode, their raid gear won't be enough to let them compete in PVP.

 

exactly!!!

[DarkHelsing]

Because one side is not the same as the other thats why. PvP is not PvE and deserves its own unique gear. PvE is not PvP and deserves its own unique gear.

 

The Poll last month were the Devs asked what players wanted out of PvP and PvE, the winning vote, BY A LOT, was PvPvE, because the sides should be the same.

 

As you advance through PvP gear it should make you better in PvP. As you advance through PvE gear it should make you better at PvE. PvE gear should not make you better at PvP and PvP gear should not make you better at PvE REGARDLESS of how long it takes you to aquire it.

 

Time spent PvPing is what should make you better, you know the skill gained from that time not the gear. The majority of the player based voted in the Bioware Poll to have PvPvE because it's about choice. If a Player wants to PvP to earn his gear, he should have the choice. If a Player wants to PvE to earn his gear, he should have the choice. The Player's choice should not preclude him joining the other event without being rolled due to nothing more than the gear gap... if the Player gets rolled it should be do to lack of skill in that event, and that's it.

 

Also where is this one week crap coming from? I got my first piece of Rakata gear on April 22nd 2012. Since that date I have gotten 6 more pieces of Rakata gear with the last piece being last night April 29th 2012. It only took me 1 week to get 7 pieces of Rakata gear. My Battlemaster gear progression has been slightly worse only because I have been doing more PvE than PvP. I realize this is anecdotal at best but it does not take THAT long to achieve top gear... not anymore anyway.

 

Everything without Expertise at level 50 in SWTOR is fictitious. Because Expertise is in the game, so if I indicate an example where Expertise is not in the game, obviously I am not addressing how the game currently is.

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkHelsing]

Wait a minute ... Guild Wars had a thriving end game raiding community? Man I missed that one.

 

Re-read the question asked please.

[BlackZoback]

It's an example. Remove your thought of "it never will". Say it does. Say next week patch makes it to where 1 week of either event nets you a piece of gear. Expertise is "in the game", so any talk of removing it is only based of examples and ideas.

 

Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

For that to happen artificial roadblocks must be put in place or gear would have to rain from the sky, and nobody likes that... cept you maybe.

 

Also what about people on the cutting edge of PvE progression? I currently have 6 pieces of BH gear and my guild is one of maybe 2 that can clear at least 3/4 HM denova, should I be given the advantage just because I can get the gear?

[DarkHelsing]

For that to happen artificial roadblocks must be put in place or gear would have to rain from the sky, and nobody likes that... cept you maybe.

 

Also what about people on the cutting edge of PvE progression? I currently have 6 pieces of BH gear and my guild is one of maybe 2 that can clear at least 3/4 HM denova, should I be given the advantage just because I can get the gear?

 

Then please let me know how the 10-49 bracket survives?

[HoosierDuke]

Using your comparison for your argument; How do the players survive in 10-49 bracket?

 

From what I've seen post 1.2 ... they don't ... 10-49 is a bigger gibfest than 50.

[Solee]

Needed

[HoosierDuke]

The quote that started the thread within the thread...

 

In my 10+ years of PvP in an MMO I've NEVER worried about some "PvE raider" coming in and wrecking my day.

 

Re-read the question asked please.

 

Re-read the thread please.

[oompadouche]

If there wasn't pvp gear i garentee BW would lose half or their subscribers. People want gear because its something to work towards. This is the same for pve, if they would remove gear from the pve then BW would prob lose majority of their subscribers. We are in a society of where if you don't get anything for something then whats the point of doing it.

[BlackZoback]

Then please let me know how the 10-49 bracket survives?

 

Answering a question with a question.... classic.

 

But to answer yours:

 

It survives because you can earn comms so when you do get the 50 you can start with a few pieces of BM, take away that and it will mostly die.

Edited April 30, 2012 by BlackZoback

[oompadouche]

I survived from 10-49 because i added expertise to my gear

[Doomsdaycomes]

^_^ Hey peeps.

 

Just letting you know I'm currently investigating run times of pve content, as well as average expected win ratio to help me better create a mock model of the Equal Interchangeable Model. I won't post a link here without the OP's permission, as I've already shamelessly linked one of my threads.

 

For a very simple projection here would be the plan:

 

>Make the tiers of PvE and PvP equal in stats, different in look.

 

>Introduce the Expertise Buff upon entering PvP.

 

>Change HM/Op drops from ready-to-use gear to a token system (like warzone comms).

 

>Equalize the amount of comms (both HM Comms or warzone comms) on a per minute basis, using the average (or expected) run times of HM's and the average expected win/lose ratio. (Example, If after the math is done, the ratio is 10 comms a minute, then 10 minute warzone should net 100 comms, while a 40 minute flashpoint will net 400 comms divided amongst 4 bosses.)

 

>Each tier of gear will require the piece from the tier before it + comms of the appropriate type. Set the cost of these two the desired total time needed (This is on the devs to decide.)

 

^_^ Additional measures to make sure the target times/averages are being considered. Please remember this is a very, very rough draft and an over simplification. I am attempting to Poll many, many averages (hard metrics would be better, but I don't have the tools.)

[Brittaany_Banks]

The Poll last month were the Devs asked what players wanted out of PvP and PvE, the winning vote, BY A LOT, was PvPvE, because the sides should be the same.

 

 

 

Time spent PvPing is what should make you better, you know the skill gained from that time not the gear. The majority of the player based voted in the Bioware Poll to have PvPvE because it's about choice. If a Player wants to PvP to earn his gear, he should have the choice. If a Player wants to PvE to earn his gear, he should have the choice. The Player's choice should not preclude him joining the other event without being rolled due to nothing more than the gear gap... if the Player gets rolled it should be do to lack of skill in that event, and that's it.

 

 

 

Everything without Expertise at level 50 in SWTOR is fictitious. Because Expertise is in the game, so if I indicate an example where Expertise is not in the game, obviously I am not addressing how the game currently is.

 

The fallacy in your argument is these poll results. The forum community represents less than 1/4 of the total player base so the statistics you site are anecdotal.

[Doomsdaycomes]

The fallacy in your argument is these poll results. The forum community represents less than 1/4 of the total player base so the statistics you site are anecdotal.

 

Not quite sure what I'm walking into here, but to disreguard a poll (which is a valid survey tool) on the such grounds would require proof the the stated 1/4th of total players represented fact is accurate. (Edit: which, even if it were accurate, would only strengthen the arguement of the poll.)

 

A Poll is always based off a sample size, and used to determine a communities general opinion. You are correct a poll is not completely accurate, but is no less valid, if the sample pool is large enough. (1/4th should be a fairly accurate sample size, but I'll look for the standard acceptable size from a 3rd-party source.)

 

One reference, easily found from a web search

Sample size Margin of error calculator

Edited April 30, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarkHelsing]

The quote that started the thread within the thread...

 

Re-read the thread please.

 

Try reading the conversation where I got involved at, you know, the part I quoted in my response. Let me re-post it for you what I responded to.

 

Ok, not going to start a fight on here, but in your 10+ years of MMO gaming please name the SKILL based pvp mmos you have played. By skill I mean they didn't have a gear advantage and they were balanced within reason for pvp.

 

Just curious to see if you can name one because in my 10+ years I can't think of this ever being the case.

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Astarica]

^_^ Hey peeps.

 

Just letting you know I'm currently investigating run times of pve content, as well as average expected win ratio to help me better create a mock model of the Equal Interchangeable Model. I won't post a link here without the OP's permission, as I've already shamelessly linked one of my threads.

 

For a very simple projection here would be the plan:

 

>Make the tiers of PvE and PvP equal in stats, different in look.

 

>Introduce the Expertise Buff upon entering PvP.

 

>Change HM/Op drops from ready-to-use gear to a token system (like warzone comms).

 

>Equalize the amount of comms (both HM Comms or warzone comms) on a per minute basis, using the average (or expected) run times of HM's and the average expected win/lose ratio. (Example, If after the math is done, the ratio is 10 comms a minute, then 10 minute warzone should net 100 comms, while a 40 minute flashpoint will net 400 comms divided amongst 4 bosses.)

 

>Each tier of gear will require the piece from the tier before it + comms of the appropriate type. Set the cost of these two the desired total time needed (This is on the devs to decide.)

 

^_^ Additional measures to make sure the target times/averages are being considered. Please remember this is a very, very rough draft and an over simplification. I am attempting to Poll many, many averages (hard metrics would be better, but I don't have the tools.)

 

You can't make PvP and PvE equal because then people will lose their way in PvP for the best PvE gear. While I don't think raiding is some sacred thing in PvE I do think it's reasonable to say that the best PvE gear should not be obtained by repeatedly losing. Even something like Black Hole weekly commendations require you to be winning something in PvE.

 

You could have a minimum level of Expertise tacked onto Bolster but then why not just buy Recruit armor? Just because people are cheap?

 

Commendation gain is never going to be equal because some classes are just better at gaining commendations, whether it's due to class mechanics or just due to class balancce (overpowered classes tend to get medals easier). Healers still do not get the right amount of attack/defender points even if they participated every bit as much as another DPS.

[DarkHelsing]

If there wasn't pvp gear i garentee BW would lose half or their subscribers. People want gear because its something to work towards. This is the same for pve, if they would remove gear from the pve then BW would prob lose majority of their subscribers. We are in a society of where if you don't get anything for something then whats the point of doing it.

 

You can't guarantee anything, that's a pompous and foolish statement. Anyway, I'm not sure how this got misread, but if PvPers were able to work towards PvP gear, and PvEers were able to work towards PvE gear... then what you stated doesn't really make any sense. No one wants gear progression removed... at all.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

 

You can't make PvP and PvE equal because then people will lose their way in PvP for the best PvE gear. While I don't think raiding is some sacred thing in PvE I do think it's reasonable to say that the best PvE gear should not be obtained by repeatedly losing. Even something like Black Hole weekly commendations require you to be winning something in PvE.

 

That's something that WoW instilled into people because WoW never was able to figure it out right. It can be done, it has been done and done well.

Edited April 30, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[JeramieCrowe]

I'm going to ask this again, and apparently it's a tough question, since the pro-Expertisers have avoided like the plague:

 

Since the majority of PvPers voted for "PvPvE" in James Ohlen's poll, how does Expertise fit into that without imbalance?

[Doomsdaycomes]

You can't make PvP and PvE equal because then people will lose their way in PvP for the best PvE gear. While I don't think raiding is some sacred thing in PvE I do think it's reasonable to say that the best PvE gear should not be obtained by repeatedly losing. Even something like Black Hole weekly commendations require you to be winning something in PvE.

 

Quite frankly, I don't think a PvP player should gain anything by losing, but it's probably not a viable change at this time. However, a player failing to win a warzone is going to increase their time to obtain the gear.

 

Work = Effort x Time.

 

If a person wins, they (presumable) put more effort, and their time decreases.

If a player loses, they supplied less effort, and their time increases.

 

The amount of work remains the same.

 

In PvE, if a player wins (clears all bosses) They put more effort, and time decreases.

If they lose (only cleared some bosses) They put in less effort, and time increases

 

The amount of work remains the same.

 

Now, in the case of not being able to clear any bosses, this would be likened to either leaving a warzone early, or performing so poorly you receive no medals/rewards. I'll admit it's an inexact at the moment, but the formula should be sound.

 

Commendation gain is never going to be equal because some classes are just better at gaining commendations, whether it's due to class mechanics or just due to class balancce (overpowered classes tend to get medals easier). Healers still do not get the right amount of attack/defender points even if they participated every bit as much as another DPS.

 

These are issues that can not be considered in comm balance really, as it deals with class imbalances. Honestly, I haven't seen a class that can not pull 8 medals for a win, and abour 4-6 for a loss. I've seen players that can fail, not classes.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthKhaos]

I understand that this debate is mostly opinion. However there are a couple facts. Fact 1, Bolster can do what you are stating they need Expertise for when considering class balance. It's already in game, it's already working, and puts Expertise into a category of nothing more than Player Segregation, which is wrong, segregation has always been wrong. Fact 2, if everything had Expertise, players and mobs, they could adjust what happens specifically for Raids and PvE environments. This would allow the same thing as not having it.

 

Now, this is opinion, but you stated "MOST" PvPers are happy with this... then why have so many people quit this game. The hardcore pvp guilds are gone, que times are horrific, server population keeps going down, and Bioware is so nervous they gave everything free play time in hopes they stick around. Now I'm sure it has more to do that just Expertise, but look how close this vote is and think of how many players are already gone because issues like this one.

 

Good or bad, it's opinion. This game is hemorrhaging players at such a rate Bioware is already handing out free game time in order to convince them to stay... so opinion or not, something is going wrong. We know how the system is "with Expertise" now, if they re-worked it because those of us that don't like it are complaining about, they very well could re-work it into a system that everyone thinks is amazing. Why wouldn't player want a better system even if they are for Expertise...?

How would the bolster system work like that? To my knowledge it boosts all your stats by a %. It doesn't affect stuff like healing bonus directly but through the stat that governs that. This is why in the under 50 bracket if you have the best possible gear for your level you pwn and if your gear is outdated you don't regardless of your talents and level.

 

Also what I mentioned had nothing to do with letting everything (mobs included have expertise) You must have a segregation once you have different progression rates. Let's say it takes 2 months to get fully decked out for PvE and one for PvP I don't have to state what's going to happen when the gear is the same. Also making the suggestion for having both progression paths to take the same amount of time wouldn't work. Why? Because of the opponent. In PvE the opponent is set their skill level and gear required is known to complete the encounter. PvP however is not. You can just as easily go against someone max geared as someone who is not. Lengthening the time in which a player would take to be competitive does nothing to encourage participation.

 

The suggestion I made solves your problem of adjusting your stats via mods the way you want. Why have to get PvP gear to get that mod you want. Mod vendors via commendations selling each variation should be available. Same with crafted mods. So if you get the drop or the item you wish crafted but don't like the stat layout you can swap mods to get what you want.

[Jadescythe]

Using your comparison for your argument; How do the players survive in 10-49 bracket?

 

Have you played any 10-49 PVP recently? The TTK is either much shorter or much longer than the 50 bracket. While a level 15 player may get stats boosted to lvl 49, it still doesn't change the fact that they have almost none of their abilities and therefore do not do as much damage. Since BW has setup the game so that expertise isn't significantly obtainable until level 50 as it is, I don't see why the 10-49 bracket makes a difference anyway. Expertise is just a tool used by the devs to keep PVE and PVP balanced without changes to one strongly affecting the other.

 

I can honestly say that I haven't read every single page of this thread, so feel free to repost something if I missed it, but all of the anti-expertise people have only tried to shoot holes in our arguments so far (with the exception of the OP). What is the reason to take expertise out? Is it to make PVP accessible to those who don't typically do PVP? This is simply a preference of people who don't want to have to do 2 grinds for gear. Why should you get to be just as good at PVP as someone who has spent days grinding to 70 valor? BW has made it much more accessible by adding the recruit gear, which costs creds instead of comms, so if you really wanna get started then buy the recruit gear and get started. It isn't nearly as hard to get BM or even WH now that valor isn't important.

[Khoraji]

I'm going to ask this again, and apparently it's a tough question, since the pro-Expertisers have avoided like the plague:

 

Since the majority of PvPers voted for "PvPvE" in James Ohlen's poll, how does Expertise fit into that without imbalance?

 

2500 votes out of 1.7 million subscribers. And those voters had to be following him on Twitter.

 

AKA, no one cares what that poll says.

[DarkHelsing]

2500 votes out of 1.7 million subscribers. And those voters had to be following him on Twitter.

 

AKA, no one cares what that poll says.

 

The Concept of Polls seems to be lost among responders to this thread...

[Khoraji]

The Concept of Polls seems to be lost among responders to this thread...

 

Twitter/forums are full of QQ. No one goes to the forums to say "Wow great game!", they are too busy having fun.

 

So any Poll on the forums or Twitter is just stupid.