Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[Doomsdaycomes]

2200 people out of a couple million answered that poll and you are confident enough to solidify that as what the entire community wants?

 

You fail at forums dear sir.

 

You fail at understanding what a Poll is, sir.

[JeramieCrowe]

2200 people out of a couple million answered that poll and you are confident enough to solidify that as what the entire community wants?

 

You fail at forums dear sir.

 

And you fail at reading comprehension. I wasn't addressing the poll results, I was asking a question of those that voted in that poll.

Edited May 1, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Brittaany_Banks]

And you fail at reading comprehension. I wasn't addressing the poll results, I was asking a question of those that voted in that poll.

 

Congrats.... guess what. of those 2200 people that answered that poll you will be lucky to get answers from even 50 of them so your research then becomes EVEN MORE anecdotal.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Congrats.... guess what. of those 2200 people that answered that poll you will be lucky to get answers from even 50 of them so your research then becomes EVEN MORE anecdotal.

 

Wiki article on Opinion Polls.

 

Learn to understand methods of research, opinion polls, margin of error, etc.. before blabbering on about things. -Sheesh, people these days. I blame public schooling.-

[JeramieCrowe]

Congrats.... guess what. of those 2200 people that answered that poll you will be lucky to get answers from even 50 of them so your research then becomes EVEN MORE anecdotal.

 

Of which I only need one. Your point?

 

And what "research"? LOL! I'm asking for an opinion! Wow...some people's kids... /facepalm

[SlashDash]

It is not needed. Everyone is pigeon holed into chasing the same loot. It wipes put 99% of other loot as even being an option. It erases any kind of unique or creative equipping of gear. There never was a need for extra pvp stat and never will be.

[Khoraji]

It is not needed. Everyone is pigeon holed into chasing the same loot. It wipes put 99% of other loot as even being an option. It erases any kind of unique or creative equipping of gear. There never was a need for extra pvp stat and never will be.

 

Except for the many reasons posted throughout the forums in threads like these.

 

- Easy way for devs to balance PvP without messing with PvE

- Separate PvP and PvE gear

 

This is why Expertise is here.

[SlashDash]

Except for the many reasons posted throughout the forums in threads like these.

 

- Easy way for devs to balance PvP without messing with PvE

- Separate PvP and PvE gear

 

This is why Expertise is here.

 

Both those reasons are fluff. PVE and PVP can be balanced regardless of expertise. Separating PvE and PVP gear is a bad thing.

[LukeStormstout]

It is needed. Every MMO game does this in one way or another. They learned from the mistakes of the previous generation on MMO games. I just hope this developer team learns that lesson at some point.

[Jadescythe]

I appreciate your detailed, thought out response and that you took the time to type out all of your thoughts. I think we are just at a difference of opinion on many issues and I will try and address your points in red in the quoted part.

 

Thank you for your response. I'll address some of this based on my take of the issue.

 

My point in bringing up the 10-49 bracket was to point out that Bolster is a system in place to balance PvP vs PvE. So Expertise isn't really needed. Expertise could be a character stat even, if it was that crucial for the Devs to be able to use it for PvPvE balance. The second reason for bringing up the 10-49 bracket is when it used to be the 10-50 bracket, Expertise changed the balance so drastically that the Devs had to remove the entire level and put it into it's own bracket... above all else that screams imbalance.

 

I don't believe they ever intended to leave pvp 1-50, it was simply started that way because no one was at 50 at launch. Once it became viable to have a different queue, they implemented it.

 

There are several ways to approach this question. Let me start with an answer that I agree with personally, but don't hold to much value with me.

 

1) Expertise is a crutch, or a lazy mans approach, to an underlying issue of game balance. This crutch was largely created/accepted via WoW follies. I agree with this, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

 

I agree that expertise can be a huge benefit, but thats why they implemented the recruit gear so that all 50s could start with a significant amount of expertise. I was topping WZs in heals both pre and post 1.2 in a centurion/champ mix and the devs have stated recruit gear is comparable to being in between those 2 sets. I'm in full BM now and the only thing that has really changed for me is my survivability. I don't think that anyone is getting facerolled due solely to expertise, it has to do with a lack of skill.

 

2) Real PvP is a test of one's playing abilities versus another player's. A gear stat like Expertise creates such a gap that player skill looses a lot of meaning and becomes a GvG (Gear vs Gear) experience instead. I fully agree with this. Prior to patch 1.2 I posted a long thread up here asking for Expertise to be scaled down or removed back then, my QQ was from the opposite side of the attack - I had my BM set and I was able to FaceRoll anyone not geared up to 12.3% Expertise by smashing my keyboard with my foot. Any true PvPer will tell you they want challenge, they will tell you that dieing teaches them something every time, a true PvPer wants to be feared for their skill not their gear. Any PvPer stating otherwise is trying to compensate for something, and they need a Gear Advantage...

 

I agree with the principal of your arguement that player skill should be significant, but I think you are somewhat overexaggerating the effects of expertise. When I first hit 50 pre 1.2, BMs would faceroll me for sure because I had no expertise at all. Recruit gear has changed that and I have been able to compete on fresh 50 alts in recruit gear. I may not be the best that way, but it gives you a chance to get medals and start the gear progression. I think that having lower gear makes you focus on your class abilities more and really learn how to play your class at a disadvantage (although pre 1.2 you didn't last long enough to learn anything). I still have no problems outdoing people in WH gear with my BM stuff and for those who plan on doing a lot of PVP, Bm gear can be purchased pre 50 now.

 

3) My personal biggest complaint is lack of player freedom and player choice. Expertise aside, if a game forces a player to grind at something they don't want to grind at, the game loses the fun aspect and is no longer a game but instead is a chore. In SWTOR while leveling, Players are given so many choices, it's awesome. You can level through PvP, you can level through mob grinding, you can level through questing, you can level through flashpoints, you can level through space missions... SWTOR did so many things right with this approach, players love one aspect more than another, or maybe they just get bored and need a change of pace, they can do that while leveling in SWTOR. Then you hit level 50, and all that stops. The player must not make a choice on what avenue to grind out, and if they get bored of that avenue, or want a change of pace for a bit, they are so severally Gear Gimped that the other event isn't even fun. There doesn't need to be a gear gap. If both avenues of game play allowed for similar Gear Progression, and the purchase system required the same average time to get a piece of PvP gear as a Piece of Raid gear (or close enough to not really matter), then players are given back their freedom of choice to bounce around the different aspects of the game as they see fit - like they were able to do while leveling, like they've been used to doing while leveling then all of the sudden were rewarded for hitting level 50 by being denied that freedom.

 

I disagree here. If you want something, it shouldn't be given to you just because you did something else. The fun of the game is doing what is necessary to obtain the best stuff, whether that be the best stats or the best looking gear. This is what makes the game playable for months on end until new content comes out. I don't want to complete my PVE gear set and already be able to PVP like a champion as well. But ths is just my personal opinion of course.

 

4) Gear mingling, the freedom to give players to choose what they like and what they don't like. This is a really big one for me too, I agree with this one a lot. When I started this game in beta, I was very pleased with the single simple fact that "hey, I love the look of this piece of gear, and I can keep it because I can modify it!" That was probably the single best feature about this game that I loved. At level 50 the first blow came when I could no longer use the gear I thought was awesome looking, I was forced into using either Raiding Gear or PvP Gear. That part had nothing to do with Expertise, it had to do with the Armoring slot not being removable. However because of Expertise I was unable to use Raid Gear if I liked the look of that better than the PvP gear. If Expertise was gone, this wouldn't have been an issue and players would have the freedom to choose again. Even still, Pre-Patch 1.2 was better, sure it had Expertise which I disagree with, but the Mods and Enhancements did not. So players still had the freedom to swap freely their Mods and Enchantments between any gear they pleased. This made things somewhat tolerable. Then Patch 1.2 promises to allow us to have the ability to go back and customize our equipment again, because the Armoring slot will now be removable, sweet, can't wait. First kick in the nuts, they throw Expertise onto each modification slot... so no the freedom to pull mods and rearrange them how ever you feel like is now totally gone, unless you want to swap them around within their own sets, which you could do before, so they gave nothing and removed everything. Second kick in the nuts, you can't change, or customize, or remove set bonuses. So this advertised thing of finally being able to remove all the pieces like you could leveling 1-49, ok great, but if you do this you will lose your set bonus and gimp your character.

 

I may be wrong, but I believe the set bonuses were supposed to be attached to the armoring piece so that you can move it to any moddable gear you like. This is why they allowed Synth and Armormech the ability to buy the PVP gear schematics to use, so you could get gear you liked even if it wasn't for your class. The devs heard the community and are trying to make the gear system better.

 

 

All that being stated, these are some of requests;

 

Allow separate gear progression, but don't punish the players that want to take a break from one event and participate in another. This can be done in many ways:

1) Put Expertise on everything, render it pointless against Mobs. Problem solved, the crutch for Expertise to be used by Devs for PvP would still be in the game, it wouldn't matter while Raiding (or maybe it would help Devs balance out Raids better too), it would allow less of a Gear Gap from one event to the other. It would allow intermingling of Mods, Enhancements, Armoring, etc. It would allow players the ability to choose what gear they like better for looks, for build, and give them back the freedom to choose as they had gotten used to while leveling 1-49.

2) Remove Expertise, use Bolster. Bolster is a way for Devs to balance PvP.

3) Put Expertise as a Class stat. Healers get blah out of it to help for blah. Tanks get blah out of it to help for blah. Dps gets blah out of it to help with blah. Adjustable, consistent, class balance-able, done.

 

Option 1 gives an advantage to PVE players since PVP players are not getting the higher stats awarded on PVE gear. If you look at the stats, PVP gear has lower aim, cunning, willpower, etc because players are not giant mobs or huge end bosses. Thus the gear rewards the players with what they gained it doing. There would be no point in leveling through PVP like you brough up before if PVE gear is better stat wise and provides expertise for PVP.

 

Option 2 only moves lower classes to the same overall amount as higher classes. I'm not sure what you meant by this so I don't want to speculate and be incorrect.

 

Option 3 would work for expertise, however would not give anyone something to work for in PVP. I agree PVP can be fun on its own, but it gets old if there are no rewards for doing the work at all.

 

Ideas for Gear Progression to make grinding in one event or the other rewarding for those dedicated to it;

 

If Expertise was gone, or was in everything, or whatever... this is the system I would like to see in place, personally:

 

1) PvE and PvP give access to different looking gear. If player likes look of hooded cowl, they need to hit up a couple Raids in order to get it. If player likes to look of blah blah blah, they need to hit up a couple hours of PvP in order to get it. This gives reason to take one event over the other, and do both events to get the set of gear you like the looks of best, but doesn't punish the players for choosing one over the other.

 

This seems somewhat contradictory to your previous statements of wanting to be able to choose how you level and not have to do any one thing. Although i agree with this point.

 

2) PvE and PvP give access to different set bonuses. I feel set bonuses should be a removable just like an Augment. You put two of the same Augment in two of the five pieces of armor and you get two piece set Bonus A, put all four of the same Augment into four pieces of armor and you get full set Bonus A. Put two of one kind and two of another, and get 2 piece set Bonus A and 2 piece set Bonus B. PvE gear progression allows access to Set Bonus A B C and D. PvP gear progression allows access to Set Bonus E F G and H. If you want to use Set Bonus C in PvP, you'll need to dip your toes into some Raiding. If you want to use Set Bonus H in a Raid, you'll need to put some time into PvP. This also gives PvPers things more oriented towards PvP and Raiders things more oriented towards Raiding, allowing players to feel rewarded for participating in the event they like the most.

 

My previous comment applies to this point as well, as well as my previous comment about devs making set bonuses movable.

 

3) PvE and PvP give access to different Armoring/Mods/Enhancements/Crystals/Hilts/Barrels etc. A player wants an Armoring piece with higher Endurance than main stat, that piece is rewarded through PvP. Player B wants Power over Crit in an Enhancement with accuracy instead of surge, that piece is rewarded through PvE. Etc. This also gives PvPers things more oriented towards PvP and Raiders things more oriented towards Raiding, allowing players to feel rewarded for participating in the event they like the most.

4) Legacy Rewards, self explanatory.

 

The ideas listed above are just some ideas, not the end all be all, but just examples and suggestions. But the one thing all the suggestions have in common is Freedom of Choice. The ideas above offer progression in both paths of PvP and PvE, and it offers a slight edge to those dedicated in one path over the other so they feel rewarded over newcomers. The players are allowed to choose if they want the rewards from Raiding, and the players are allowed to choose if the want the rewards from PvPing, and neither choice punishes them so severely with a gear gap that if they choose to take a break in one event they haven't lost the Freedom of Choice to compete in the other event and be rewarded based on their ability to play their class - not their lack of gear. The above ideas also allow the players the Freedom of Choice to pick which pieces of armor they like and want to keep, and which Mods work best for their build, and it gives the players the Freedom to Choose how they want to mix and match their gear based on their personal preference.

 

Expertise is at the forefront of the road block that helps prevent players access to the Freedom to enjoy the aspects of the game without being punished in all other events.

 

Overall, the beginning of your arguement seems to be geared towards having the freedom to choose what you want to do in order to get gear and to be able to compete in all aspects of the game, which i disagree with. I think you should have to PVP to be the best at PVP and Raid to be the best at PVE. This, of course, is a matter of opinion. The second part seems to go back on the original argument, however. You talk a lot about having to raid to get a certain armor piece or set bonus to use for PVP. That should never be the case. I personally love doing both PVE and PVP, but don't feel anyone should HAVE to raid to get BIS PVP hear. Looks of gear I'm fine with. If you like the way the PVE gear looks, then you should have to raid to get it and move your mods over.

 

I think expertise is a good way to keep PVP and PVE separate. I don't think the system currently gives that big of an advantage to frequent PVPers because of the recruit gear's base expertise, which doesn't require any previous PVP to get. Is it harder to beat someone when they have more expertise? Yes, but that doesn't make it any less fun. The gap has already been significantly closed with the 1.2 patch and things will also be even more balanced with cross-server queues and ranked warzones launching sometime in the future.

[Debow]

I know it has nothing to do with Expertise, that's my point. A PvPvE reward system is generally a PvP version of PvE gear gain. Expertise breaks that system.

 

I don't understand. You asked how do those of us explain our vote in that poll yet most do want expertise. The answer for me at least is they have nothing to do with each other. They are talking about giving a temp bonus to the side with less players in an Ilum type setting in the poll question. What does that have to do with gear? I think you are miss reading the question.

[JeramieCrowe]

I don't understand. You asked how do those of us explain our vote in that poll yet most do want expertise. The answer for me at least is they have nothing to do with each other. They are talking about giving a temp bonus to the side with less players in an Ilum type setting in the poll question. What does that have to do with gear? I think you are miss reading the question.

 

Nah, it's more of a "what-if" scenario. Games with PvPvE in the past rewarded PvE gear. It was an alternate gear acquisition model to raiding and dungeons, with similar gear.

 

If that happens, I see little value of Expertise, as PvPers would have their own gear carrot.

[Khoraji]

Both those reasons are fluff. PVE and PVP can be balanced regardless of expertise. Separating PvE and PVP gear is a bad thing

 

Seperating PvE and PvP is a good thing.

 

No PvPer wants to be rolled by raiders

[DarthKhaos]

(1)Problem comes in that if you can -only- gain viable pvp gear through pvp, then when one side has the advantage (Aka mostly WH which has higher stats and expertise) the losing side is now running their head into a brick wall, waiting for their losses to trickle into another piece of gear. If the progression is equal for pvp vs pve (Equal Work = Time x Effort) then either side can over come a gear gap (either unable to do an fp because of lack of gear or unable to compete in pvp from an over geared side) they can switch to the other activity.

 

(2)Equal is Equal. If a PvE tier 2 helmet has +50 endurance, +50 Willpower, +50 Power, +50 Banana Sundae making stat... then the PvP tier 2 helmet of the same set would have +50 endurance, +50 willpower, +50 power, and even... wait for it... +50 Banana Sundae making stat!

 

(3)And what about players who love to do end-game content (50 wz's and raiding)?

It is possible to make the grind in either direction roughly the same. It just takes some effort. Lots of effort, I won't try and say "Dev's are Lazy." But to say it can't be done is to say "I am not willing to try."

 

(4)If this were the case (People should be geared by level 50 to run 50 content in their respective side), then Recruit gear should have cost 2,000 wz comms. Not 300k credits.

 

(5) This is an apples to oranges comparison. There isn't endgame content you can/can't do based on how you spent your time crafting. No one will say "You can't raid with us because you're not a Synthweaver." Someone will say "You've got PvP gear on, can't raid."

(1) The difference in level of PvP gear is not that large. From Recruit to War Hero it is noticeable but Battle Master to War Hero isn't that huge. The larger difference comes in when they are in crafted War Hero with each piece has augment. However they put in both the time & effort for the War Hero rank & base gear also the money for the unmoded crafted slot which requires the War Hero rank to wear.

 

(2)And then people will expect players to grind PvP during lockouts to maximize getting gear or be excluded from raiding. Then you have the problem we all do not want existing. If a player do not want to PvP they shouldn't have to and having the guild or whoever not allow them into the raid till they have X/Y/Z is wrong.

 

(3) Making the progression the same is the problem. Having an overly long progression for PvP will cause the haves to dominate for longer. There is a reason the progression for PvP is generally shorter than PvE so that an even playing field can be attained sooner. PvE progression is marked by stages that their gear allows them to overcome. You get better gear and move to the next level with that gear. With PvP it doesn't work that way. The top of the food chain is mixed with the bottom of the food chain.

 

(4)You missed this point. What I was talking about is that they should have a set of PvE gear you can buy from cash to get you geared out to start the level 50 content just as they have a set of level 50 PvP gear you can buy to get you geared out to start level 50 PvP.

 

(5)It is not. Crafting is another form of content. What you are asking for is the equivalent to crafting one profession and because you put in the time, effort and money you should be allowed to use that skill level to craft anything instead of PROGRESSING through another form of crafting.

 

Both those reasons are fluff. PVE and PVP can be balanced regardless of expertise. Separating PvE and PVP gear is a bad thing.

And what do you think will happen when PvErs have their healing nerfed by say 20% to balance PvP?

Edited May 1, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[SlashDash]

Separating PVE and PVP gear is a bad thing. Expertise is a carebear stat created by whiners. There is no reason to seperate gear other than cater to carebears worrying about getting rolled by raiders. Which if that is the case the raiders are more pvp than you. Edited May 1, 2012 by SlashDash

[Doomsdaycomes]

(1) The difference in level of PvP gear is not that large. From Recruit to War Hero it is noticeable but Battle Master to War Hero isn't that huge. The larger difference comes in when they are in crafted War Hero with each piece has augment. However they put in both the time & effort for the War Hero rank & base gear also the money for the unmoded crafted slot which requires the War Hero rank to wear.

 

A difference is still a difference, and assuming that both players have roughly an equal level of skill, the player with -any- advantage is going to win. If there is not a way to step around that player, then the player at a disadvantage will continue to lose and his opponent will get stronger faster (until he hits his gear cap).

 

(2)And then people will expect players to grind PvP during lockouts to maximize getting gear or be excluded from raiding. Then you have the problem we all do not want existing. If a player do not want to PvP they shouldn't have to and having the guild or whoever not allow them into the raid till they have X/Y/Z is wrong.

 

Easy answer. Remove Lock outs. Get better friends.

 

(3) Making the progression the same is the problem. Having an overly long progression for PvP will cause the haves to dominate for longer. There is a reason the progression for PvP is generally shorter than PvE so that an even playing field can be attained sooner. PvE progression is marked by stages that their gear allows them to overcome. You get better gear and move to the next level with that gear. With PvP it doesn't work that way. The top of the food chain is mixed with the bottom of the food chain.

 

Though the current cost of Warhero is a place holder at the moment, the Progression is -huge.- Someone calculated at 200+ hours if you win most of the time. Even reduced, the progression could still be 100 hours and not be terrible, especially if there are alternate gearing process.

 

(4)You missed this point. What I was talking about is that they should have a set of PvE gear you can buy from cash to get you geared out to start the level 50 content just as they have a set of level 50 PvP gear you can buy to get you geared out to start level 50 PvP.

 

We actually agree. If the dev's aren't willing to put in the work to equalize the progression and make it interchangeable, then in all fairness there should be a 50 pve starter set for credits, or the PvP 50 set should have been comms.

 

(5)It is not. Crafting is another form of content. What you are asking for is the equivalent to crafting one profession and because you put in the time, effort and money you should be allowed to use that skill level to craft anything instead of PROGRESSING through another form of crafting.

 

This is the point I find rather annoying. PvP'ers (and some PvE'ers') think -playing- one aspect of the game more than the other is a proffession. End-game content includes PvP and PvE. Until they start paying you real money for PvP or PvE, you're just playing a game.

[DarkDruidSS]

Regardless of if you like expertise or not, there isn't an alternative for this game. I seriously doubt that BW will put in the effort needed to balance ablities for pvp and pve giving them different strengths depending on if it was a mob or player it was used on. That is pretty much the only way to balance the pvp and pve without having expertise and that is A LOT of leg work to create a system that isn't in the game.

 

Sure they can make this happen eventually, but it wouldn't be for a long time and it might not even be worth the effort since Expertise is pretty much doing that for them. How else do you balance a game where mobs have 1mill+ HP while players have 20k or so max if they are tanks and 15-17k if they dps?

 

Expertise is a normalization tool as well as adding a barrier of entry so that a player has to PvP to be effective in PvP endgame just like a raider has to do their time to get good PvE gear.

[SirSensi]

Wait a sec... PvP-only stats like Expertise CAUSES "skilless" players to stomp. Take away Expertise, and we're back to skill-based PvP.

 

It doesnt 'cause' a bad to stomp, but with the gear gap as it were, it helps them become a god in the battle.

 

Why should a PvE player GET BiS for everything? Just because they beat the computers big-bad-monster robot-ninja-unicorn-dinosaur, doesn't entitle them to be gods in PvP. And the reverse holds true as well.

[JeramieCrowe]

It doesnt 'cause' a bad to stomp, but with the gear gap as it were, it helps them become a god in the battle.

 

Why should a PvE player GET BiS for everything? Just because they beat the computers big-bad-monster robot-ninja-unicorn-dinosaur, doesn't entitle them to be gods in PvP. And the reverse holds true as well.

 

What does it matter if the same gear is offered for both avenues? If the PvP avenue rewarded the same gear as the PvE avenue for equivalent effort, why would there be a need for Expertise?

[Doomsdaycomes]

What does it matter if the same gear is offered for both avenues? If the PvP avenue rewarded the same gear as the PvE avenue for equivalent effort, why would there be a need for Expertise?

 

+1

 

To the poster the above post was replying to... Why is it so hard to wrap one's mind around the idea of "Equal Gear, Equal Progression."

 

Since when did games become a "Proffession?" You're not a PvP'er, you're not a PvE'er. You're a gamer, and we're all playing the same game.

[SirSensi]

What does it matter if the same gear is offered for both avenues? If the PvP avenue rewarded the same gear as the PvE avenue for equivalent effort, why would there be a need for Expertise?

 

It doesn't matter, IF both avenues are offered up, for all, like it was in SWG. And a lack of a PvP stat would make it a level playing field.

 

It's not me who made the system the way it is, I just merely go along with what the rules tend to be. PvP offers one set, and PvE offers another. Its personal choice on what you as a player does for endgame.

[SirSensi]

+1

 

To the poster the above post was replying to... Why is it so hard to wrap one's mind around the idea of "Equal Gear, Equal Progression."

 

Since when did games become a "Proffession?" You're not a PvP'er, you're not a PvE'er. You're a gamer, and we're all playing the same game.

 

It's not, don't get me wrong here, I do believe in the mantra, but why did the devs over at Blizzard do it (since this is where it all seems to have started)?

[Doomsdaycomes]

It's not, don't get me wrong here, I do believe in the mantra, but why did the devs over at Blizzard do it (since this is where it all seems to have started)?

 

Though I personally can't speak for them, I'd have to say it was due to a few things. The first being to cater to the crowd of Exclusive PvP'ers who don't want to PvE for their gear. The second being they probably couldn't change the way loot/gearing was done with a game that old.

 

I hope, with Swtor being a newer game with less "content" the devs can look for another solution, other than the easier way. Swtor had been about innovation, let's hope they can keep it up.

 

(On a side note: ^_^ You too? I never played Swg, but I use to play other Mmo's where there wasn't a pvp stat or pvp gear. Top PvP'ers were also top PvE'ers. Pretty much, they were top gamers.)

[SlimsPicken]

Since when did games become a "Proffession?" You're not a PvP'er, you're not a PvE'er. You're a gamer, and we're all playing the same game.

 

This is how I feel. One game one playerbase.

 

Do we really think theres enough players in the playerbase to split it down the middle?

 

I basically get to 50 and retire now, its simply too much work to gear up a character two ways. Id rather just enjoy the 10-49 bracket for what little time i have left (4x50, 2xhigh 40s, 2xmid 30s...) Once I hit 50 its like a death sentence for enjoyment. It becomes pure work. I already have a job, I dont need 2 more.

 

I would certainly be more inclined to play characters and enjoy them longer if there wasnt a huge gear wall blocking my every turn.

[Doomsdaycomes]

This is how I feel. One game one playerbase.

 

Do we really think theres enough players in the playerbase to split it down the middle?

 

I basically get to 50 and retire now, its simply too much work to gear up a character two ways. Id rather just enjoy the 10-49 bracket for what little time i have left (4x50, 2xhigh 40s, 2xmid 30s...) Once I hit 50 its like a death sentence for enjoyment. It becomes pure work. I already have a job, I dont need 2 more.

 

I would certainly be more inclined to play characters and enjoy them longer if there wasnt a huge gear wall blocking my every turn.

 

Sorta starting to feel the same way. Just hit 50 on a new server after 3 more on a different one. Except for wanting certian legacy races (need 1.5 mil) I'd re-roll then work on my 50's. Even worse, I made two sets of friends as I leveled, those who kicked *** in PvP and those who PvE'd with me (There is a decent amount of cross content with them as well). Now that we hit 50, I ended up telling half of them "Can't play any more" simply because I don't have to time to engage in post 50 pvp and be competitive (even with recruit gear) and still do pve progression.

 

Pre 1.2 (and the expertise spike that wasn't needed, as this thread is about) it was pretty darn perfect. People did pvp and pve together pre 50, then did so again post 50. Those who PvP'ed alot got titles (and eventually moved into BM gear), pvp mounts, etc... and could still come with me on HM's and Raids. Those who PvE'ed alot got titles, mounts, etc... and could come PvP with me.

 

Were there some imbalances that needed to be worked out? Yes. Was this divide the answer? No.