pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

[Khoraji]

Oh knows having to think too much for those nasty variables, stuffs like tactics is so hard i guess... Sigh!

 

So your saying tactics aren't used in Warzones? ok dude.

 

In world pvp both sides hardly ever have equal numbers, starting positions are not equal, etc.

 

Competitive PvP must be instanced and Warzone style or it is simply not fair.

[Razot]

So your saying tactics aren't used in Warzones? ok dude.

 

In world pvp both sides hardly ever have equal numbers, starting positions are not equal, etc.

 

Competitive PvP must be instanced and Warzone style or it is simply not fair.

 

LOL....

Not worth my time!

[Silvaeris]

I'm wondering - why not just make highest tier PVP gear equal to highest tier PVE gear? That way no PVP'er will complain that the best gear for PVP is gained through PVP.

[Astarica]

I'm wondering - why not just make highest tier PVP gear equal to highest tier PVE gear? That way no PVP'er will complain that the best gear for PVP is gained through PVP.

 

Because then people would complain about being able to get the best PvE gear in the game by losing your way in PvP, which is a valid concern. You certainly can't get by the best PvE gear in the game by just wiping.

[Khoraji]

Stop thinking inside the box. There's ways around this. For instance, everyone gets the same amount of their "base stat" (strength, willpower, etc), and then they get X points to distribute amount crit, surge, alacrity, power as they see fit. They can save that as a "PvP Stat Template" and it gets enabled when they enter a warzone. Let people have multiple stat templates they can choose from a menu so they can differentiate them for if they're tanky, dps, healing, etc. Then it's even more about skill to know your stats and what they do rather than how much you outgear your opponent.

 

Try to be just a little creative and break the mold. The problem we have is this game is too much a carbon copy of WoW in the first place.

 

There are definately other ways to provide the customization RPG'ers want without a pvp stat and without a gear grind. I am just against those that say everyone should come in with the same stats, same gear, same everything. You also have to remember that there is a large percentage of MMO players that enjoy a good grind and the sense of accomplishment you get from it. This game has a very casual friendly grind compared to alot of other MMO's out there.

 

What your asking is for BW to completely change their philosophy on gear and what character progression means and I highly doubt that is going to happen. There are different games for different people is all I am trying to say.

[Khoraji]

LOL....

Not worth my time!

 

Because you have no valid point to make. World PvP will never be as competitive or fair as instanced.

[eclipce]

Because you have no valid point to make. World PvP will never be as competitive or fair as instanced.

 

what about good old fun?

 

never, competative and fair.. those words and world pvp does not compute if the game mechanics are in place.

[Silvaeris]

Because then people would complain about being able to get the best PvE gear in the game by losing your way in PvP, which is a valid concern. You certainly can't get by the best PvE gear in the game by just wiping.

 

In my opinion it's not a valid concern. Those are two different mechanics, PVP and PVE. One participating in any of these facets of the game agrees that there are certain rules to it. Nobody always wipes in PVE, as there are no players in PVP that always lose. Probably the time needed to be spent to acquire War Hero/Campaign gear, assuming a statistical probability of success (be it in warzones or raids), would go in favour of PVE at the moment. Furthermore, as more as you progress in each of the tiers, the higher are your chances of success (even moreso in PVE, where most bosses up to Campaign tier can be powered through).

 

I really think getting over the possibility that a PVP "loser" gets "free epics" is not a big sacrifice for getting rid of this artificial and problematic gear separation.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Silvaeris

[Khoraji]

what about good old fun?

 

never, competative and fair.. those words and world pvp does not compute if the game mechanics are in place.

 

Dont get me wrong. World pvp is fun. And our server has events every so often where we make our own World pvp and I always participate. But do I want to do that every day? No, and most other people don't either or there would be alot more world pvp.

 

If your on a pvp server, every planet has world pvp if you walk outside the outpost. The fact is, no one wants to do that crap every day or people would do it.

 

Competition = fun for most PvPers.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Khoraji

[eclipce]

There are definately other ways to provide the customization RPG'ers want without a pvp stat and without a gear grind. I am just against those that say everyone should come in with the same stats, same gear, same everything. You also have to remember that there is a large percentage of MMO players that enjoy a good grind and the sense of accomplishment you get from it. This game has a very casual friendly grind compared to alot of other MMO's out there.

 

What your asking is for BW to completely change their philosophy on gear and what character progression means and I highly doubt that is going to happen. There are different games for different people is all I am trying to say.

 

Please define a "good grind", what do you mean?

 

To me a good grind is about do whatever you want to do and always get a bit closer to your goal - that goal is defined by you and it can take a day or a year, but please dont force me to do only that to get that if you know what I mean?

[FoxNemhauser]

Competition = fun for most PvPers.

 

where is the competition where two characters of the same class meet but one is 25% more powerful than the other?

[DarkHelsing]

pvp stat (expertise) - is it needed?

 

I'd like to know what people think of a pvp stat vs not a pvp stat - pros and cons.

 

Nearly all I've talked with and played with think that pvp stats in mmos is just nonsense and ruins a lot of game features and I agree 110% - Most notably it ruins the random open world pvp in mmos and peoples "lust" to enter warzones and re-grind gear when they add new tiers. Gonna add here that these people and I are loving pvp in general no matter what game and setting.

 

I was thinking about returning to AoC and have me some bloody pvp, but they wont get my cash because of the pvp-grind - and that again would limit my gametime from exploration of the pve game.

 

There must be other ways to reward pvp'ers? I know I dont need to be rewarded with a pvp stat be it mmos or shooters or whatever.

 

It is not needed.

 

Players forget that the only reason WoW implemented a PvP stat was because they were unable to properly balance classes from PvE to PvP, what made them survivable in PvE made them OP in PvP so Resilience was added so WoW had the ability to adjust the classes accordingly in PvP.

 

SWTOR did not have that flaw, the classes were pretty well balanced right out of the gate. There is no need for Expertise except for the reason to segregate PvPers from Raiders.

 

Such segregation is not needed, especially in SWTOR and here's why;

 

The system in swtor allows players to mix and match armor types to allow them to look how they want to look, and have stats according to their play style. All Raiding versus PvP rewards need to do is allow players a different access to those pools, differently looking gear, different stat'd slot modifications, different set bonuses, different access to legacy stuff, etc.

 

Having a system that separates Raiders from PvPers is an argument that's been had for a long time. The only problem is the argument is a mute point. Raiders should be able to PvP, and PvPers should be able to raid. Every hard core PvP game on the market does not separate PvE gear from PvP gear, they don't, period, because only the people that don't know any better think it's a good idea.

 

Here's a scenario;

 

Player Tim wants to Raid, it's what he likes to do, so he spends his time raiding and is rewarded for his choice of end game content.

 

Player Jill wants to PvP, it's what she likes to do, so she spends her time PvPing and is rewarded for her choice of end game content.

 

Player Tim decides he's going to give PvP a crack, a raid was canceled and he's bored, so he joins a game. He knows very little about what to do because he doesn't PvP, so his skill is totally lacking in how to deal with live players instead of timer mechanic mobs. He meets Jill on the PvP field and they battle it out. Jill wins because she knows what she is doing because this is where she spends most of her time, and her gear is modded to be more Player vs Player oriented. What Tim walks away with is a defeat, but not because he got rolled do to having no PvP gear, the gear was pretty even minus the mods done to accommodate Jill's play style in PvP. So Tim isn't utterly behind the game because he doesn't have PvP gear, he's behind the game because he lacks the skill from devoting his time to Raiding. But his Raiding gear isn't what throws him behind the eight ball, the gear is so close to equal, it's a mute point, so it comes down to player skill... you know, what PvP should be about.

 

Jill decides to take a break from PvPing and gets invited to Raid. Jill is a good player, but has no idea what to do in the Raid, everything has to stop and be explained to her, she fumbles a few times and dies removing her effectiveness in the Raid, and her gear is modded more for survivablilty, or burst dps, or whatever, but not aimed at sustained several minute fights.

 

If Jill wants to be better at Raiding, she's going to need to build up a new set of mods for her gear, probably using a different set of gear so she doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and she's going to have to Raid more often to get to that point where she is an ace in the hole.

 

If Tim wants to be better at PvP, he's going to need to build up a new set of mods for his gear, probably using a different set of gear so he doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and he's going to have to PvP more often to get to that point where he is an ace in the hole.

 

Jill knows how to mod her Equipment to be a better asset to PvP. Tim knows how to mod his Equipment to be a better asset to his Raids. People that want to do both will undoubtedly have two totally different sets of Equipment.

 

But that's it. There is no reason a Raider can't enjoy a once in a while game of PvP and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's also no reason a PvP can't enjoy a once in a while Raid and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's just no reason to have that separation.

 

At most, AT MOST, I could see the use of being able to add set bonuses to Equipment, and certain Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against non-players for Raiding; and other Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against other players. At most the line could be drawn with very simple and minor changes like that.

 

The game should be about what you like to do, and what you like to do should allow you participate in End Game. If you like to Raid over PvP, that shouldn't force you into doing a bunch of PvP just to not get rolled for lack of not having Expertise PvP gear. You should get rolled because you don't really know what you are doing because you prefer to Raid. Things like Expertise FORCE players into grinding in other areas they may or may not enjoy, and FORCING players grind in an area they may not enjoy is wrong. If they enjoy is once in awhile, cool, but making them grind it for hours and hours so when they do join those times they want to play they don't get utterly destroyed for not having the proper gear.... that is the wrong way to approach it.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise, why do you need to hide behind your gear? Why do you need the ability to have gear replace any skill when killing people not equally geared? Can you not hold up if tested? Do you lack the skill required to play the game? Do challenges frighten you? Can you not handle equal geared fights?

 

Strive to be good at something because that's what you've gotten good at. Don't strive to be good at something because you managed to grind enough time to get gear that allows your lack of skill to not show.

Edited April 25, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Khoraji]

Please define a "good grind", what do you mean?

 

To me a good grind is about do whatever you want to do and always get a bit closer to your goal - that goal is defined by you and it can take a day or a year, but please dont force me to do only that to get that if you know what I mean?

 

"Grind" to me isn't always bad. Every game has some sort of grind even if it isn't obvious.

 

Like FPS games, most people would think there is no grind (not counting COD here with their stupid leveling system), but there really is. You have to "grind" out game after game to get used to the maps, spawn points, different guns and tactics, aiming, etc. Until then you are going to be bad compared to someone who has been playing for longer.

 

The fact is, that MMORPG's PvP take less skill than other forms of PvP so instead of aim, map knowlege, etc. You have gear/stats which require you to play a certain amount of games. It is there to reward those who play the game more/longer.

[eclipce]

Dont get me wrong. World pvp is fun. And our server has events every so often where we make our own World pvp and I always participate. But do I want to do that every day? No, and most other people don't either or there would be alot more world pvp.

 

If your on a pvp server, every planet has world pvp if you walk outside the outpost. The fact is, no one wants to do that crap every day or people would do it.

 

Competition = fun for most PvPers.

 

I love those random fights, or planned ones for that matter. But world pvp can so incredible much more. Just rip a few maps from the Battlefield series. Implement these massive "battlefields" areas on a few epic Star Warsy planets (tatooine, hoth, corellia?) - implement that and objectives - give players an incentive be it vanity, fluff, gear, creds etc.

 

the more I type the more I realize something.. hehe -

[Rouncer]

The problem with "one commendation to rule them all" is that you want people to gear at a different pace in PvP and PvE. In PvP you want everyone playing against everyone else in the best gear available for that tier of play as that promotes balanced games that are the most fun for the participants. In PvE you want the raid group to have just finished gearing all their members when new content is about to be released.

 

What that ends up meaning is if the gear rewards from both activities is equal then gaining gear from PvP ends up being quicker meaning that people who prefer PvE end up having to run a lot of PvP to stay competitive while at the same time they are all gearing up faster then intended because it is then possible to gain commendations through two separate acquisition paths. Meaning the content is being churned much too fast which is just awful for the game.

[JayPres]

If there was only 1 set of gear that could be earned PVP'ing, doing HMs/OPs, or crafted that created an even playing field I would be all for that.

 

PVP comes down to situational awareness and the ability to adapt on the fly which is what makes it more fun for me than completing the same hardmode for the 20th time or killing the same boss over and over hoping for a drop.

 

The PVP stat is arbitrary in the sense that BW created it segregating the population of players instead of allowing the best gear to be looted / crafted like a competent design team should be able to do.

[eclipce]

"Grind" to me isn't always bad. Every game has some sort of grind even if it isn't obvious.

 

Like FPS games, most people would think there is no grind (not counting COD here with their stupid leveling system), but there really is. You have to "grind" out game after game to get used to the maps, spawn points, different guns and tactics, aiming, etc. Until then you are going to be bad compared to someone who has been playing for longer.

 

The fact is, that MMORPG's PvP take less skill than other forms of PvP so instead of aim, map knowlege, etc. You have gear/stats which require you to play a certain amount of games. It is there to reward those who play the game more/longer.

 

ok, I'm having a hard time taking your point in FPS grinding.. tactics, aiming and such.. that is learn by doing because you want to not suck, because that aint fun (for most lol) and for the sport/competition of it.

[Khoraji]

where is the competition where two characters of the same class meet but one is 25% more powerful than the other?

 

The person without the gear should get better gear. The person with more power has played more/longer/won more games than the other guy and has been rewarded for it, as it should be in an RPG. Where is the competition at where two characters of the same class meet but there are no stat differences? It would be a tie every time once they both learn their class.

[Khoraji]

ok, I'm having a hard time taking your point in FPS grinding.. tactics, aiming and such.. that is learn by doing because you want to not suck, because that aint fun (for most lol) and for the sport/competition of it.

 

And getting gear is earned by doing as well. for the same reasons (you dont want to suck).

[Rouncer]

It is not needed.

~..snip..~

 

What about content churn and the difference in ideal acquisition rates of gear between PvP and PvE? How do you reconcile that into all of your examples.

 

PvP does better when all players are in similar gear very quickly so the games are more balanced. PvE does better when players have to learn encounters through a geared check gating such that they want to go back to farm older content to make sure that each member of their group is as decked as possible when trying to beat a new encounter. Ideally, in PvE, only having a subset of their group completely decked in the best gear available when new content is released so they have reasons to want to continue doing the old content even while working on the new content.

 

That's because PvP has no real churn rate as the content is the other players. PvE is all about content churn rate as if there isn't enough content they get bored so you need to make sure that there are always challenges for them to butt their head against.

 

Having a PvP stat lets them have separate gear acquisition rates tuned to fit the content.

[JayPres]

where is the competition where two characters of the same class meet but one is 25% more powerful than the other?

 

Where is the competition for 2 players that have played the same amount of time in combat, but one runs hardmodes and ops all the time and the other pvps.

 

In full BM I'm suffering losses in stats if I try to run high end PVE content. Is that fair?

[eclipce]

It is not needed.

 

Players forget that the only reason WoW implemented a PvP stat was because they were unable to properly balance classes from PvE to PvP, what made them survivable in PvE made them OP in PvP so Resilience was added so WoW had the ability to adjust the classes accordingly in PvP.

 

SWTOR did not have that flaw, the classes were pretty well balanced right out of the gate. There is no need for Expertise except for the reason to segregate PvPers from Raiders.

 

Such segregation is not needed, especially in SWTOR and here's why;

 

The system in swtor allows players to mix and match armor types to allow them to look how they want to look, and have stats according to their play style. All Raiding versus PvP rewards need to do is allow players a different access to those pools, differently looking gear, different stat'd slot modifications, different set bonuses, different access to legacy stuff, etc.

 

Having a system that separates Raiders from PvPers is an argument that's been had for a long time. The only problem is the argument is a mute point. Raiders should be able to PvP, and PvPers should be able to raid. Every hard core PvP game on the market does not separate PvE gear from PvP gear, they don't, period, because only the people that don't know any better think it's a good idea.

 

Here's a scenario;

 

Player Tim wants to Raid, it's what he likes to do, so he spends his time raiding and is rewarded for his choice of end game content.

 

Player Jill wants to PvP, it's what she likes to do, so she spends her time PvPing and is rewarded for her choice of end game content.

 

Player Tim decides he's going to give PvP a crack, a raid was canceled and he's bored, so he joins a game. He knows very little about what to do because he doesn't PvP, so his skill is totally lacking in how to deal with live players instead of timer mechanic mobs. He meets Jill on the PvP field and they battle it out. Jill wins because she knows what she is doing because this is where she spends most of her time, and her gear is modded to be more Player vs Player oriented. What Tim walks away with is a defeat, but not because he got rolled do to having no PvP gear, the gear was pretty even minus the mods done to accommodate Jill's play style in PvP. So Tim isn't utterly behind the game because he doesn't have PvP gear, he's behind the game because he lacks the skill from devoting his time to Raiding. But his Raiding gear isn't what throws him behind the eight ball, the gear is so close to equal, it's a mute point, so it comes down to player skill... you know, what PvP should be about.

 

Jill decides to take a break from PvPing and gets invited to Raid. Jill is a good player, but has no idea what to do in the Raid, everything has to stop and be explained to her, she fumbles a few times and dies removing her effectiveness in the Raid, and her gear is modded more for survivablilty, or burst dps, or whatever, but not aimed at sustained several minute fights.

 

If Jill wants to be better at Raiding, she's going to need to build up a new set of mods for her gear, probably using a different set of gear so she doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and she's going to have to Raid more often to get to that point where she is an ace in the hole.

 

If Tim wants to be better at PvP, he's going to need to build up a new set of mods for his gear, probably using a different set of gear so he doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and he's going to have to PvP more often to get to that point where he is an ace in the hole.

 

Jill knows how to mod her Equipment to be a better asset to PvP. Tim knows how to mod his Equipment to be a better asset to his Raids. People that want to do both will undoubtedly have two totally different sets of Equipment.

 

But that's it. There is no reason a Raider can't enjoy a once in a while game of PvP and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's also no reason a PvP can't enjoy a once in a while Raid and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's just no reason to have that separation.

 

At most, AT MOST, I could see the use of being able to add set bonuses to Equipment, and certain Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against non-players for Raiding; and other Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against other players. At most the line could be drawn with very simple and minor changes like that.

 

The game should be about what you like to do, and what you like to do should allow you participate in End Game. If you like to Raid over PvP, that shouldn't force you into doing a bunch of PvP just to not get rolled for lack of not having Expertise PvP gear. You should get rolled because you don't really know what you are doing because you prefer to Raid. Things like Expertise FORCE players into grinding in other areas they may or may not enjoy, and FORCING players grind in an area they may not enjoy is wrong. If they enjoy is once in awhile, cool, but making them grind it for hours and hours so when they do join those times they want to play they don't get utterly destroyed for not having the proper gear.... that is the wrong way to approach it.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise, why do you need to hide behind your gear? Why do you need the ability to have gear replace any skill when killing people not equally geared? Can you not hold up if tested? Do you lack the skill required to play the game? Do challenges frighten you? Can you not handle equal geared fights?

 

Strive to be good at something because that's what you've gotten good at. Don't strive to be good at something because you managed to grind enough time to get gear that allows your lack of skill to not show.

 

I vote post of the year! I seem to be schizo.. (I'm Jill and Tim ) I love pvp, pve, rp and a good grind. I very much dont like to be forced down a path I rather not go for hours and hours and months and months.

 

Forced time sinks in a game is a poorly designed game - the game itself should be a time sink, a fun time sink.

[DarkHelsing]

I vote post of the year! I seem to be schizo.. (I'm Jill and Tim ) I love pvp, pve, rp and a good grind. I very much dont like to be forced down a path I rather not go for hours and hours and months and months.

 

Forced time sinks in a game is a poorly designed game - the game itself should be a time sink, a fun time sink.

 

Thank you. I invite everyone to place a vote and voice how they feel, so I can attempt to tally the responses to hopefully get a better overall view about what is going on here.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=432304

[eclipce]

And getting gear is earned by doing as well. for the same reasons (you dont want to suck).

 

you cant possibly mean that grinding your aim in CoD and grinding viable gear in mmos are the same?

- cant learning your class, rotation, maps, tactics etc be enough in a mmo? I realize that some gear is needed but how you aquire that gear should be at your own discretion - a one commendation rule.

 

Besides, playing CoD online is ALL about player vs player interaction, and you dont pay for it. In mmos there are possibly a million fun things to do, but to even be ok in these aspects you are being forced to grind within that, and only that aspect.

Edited April 25, 2012 by eclipce

[hadoken]

It is not needed....

 

...Having a system that separates Raiders from PvPers is an argument that's been had for a long time. The only problem is the argument is a mute point. Raiders should be able to PvP, and PvPers should be able to raid. Every hard core PvP game on the market does not separate PvE gear from PvP gear, they don't, period, because only the people that don't know any better think it's a good idea.

 

This was actually a really good post but I couldn't help but think of a certain Friends episode when reading parts of it (bolded above).