The Vanguard and The Operative - Not a Love Story

[Olympic]

First, let me give my basic qualifiers so the community can better parse the situation. Valor 70 VG in full Eliminator BM gear, rolled the character as my main at Launch; love the class.

 

I have mostly ran in a Shield'ish build with Ion Cell, have lately been using a full Assault build in Plasma Cell for a change of pace and better understanding of that tree. I like both, play both "pretty good".

 

Here is my own experience over time against most players regardless of class. In my shield build where I mostly used Ion Pulse, HiB, Gut (yes, don't hate on Gut it has good utility), fillers of hammer shot, and big Shockstrikes I was usually able to at least hold my own against just about anyone. I didn't always win, but I was always in the fight. And I won a lot of 1 v 1 encounters fighting over nodes, and in several cases was able to finish at least one off if i was fighting 2 - 3 people. It was a grinding approach to killing, but it is effective for me. And in those cases where I have a healer I can guard, as most VG's probably know, we can hold off several players for a very long time before help arrives.

 

Switch to Assault spec. Vaporizing people. Gave up some toughness, but I don't have to grind people down, now I just explode them. Again, I don't always win, I don't always get the kill, but its still pretty comfortable even in a crowd; I can last pretty good and still get a kill before I die.

 

Enter the Operative. I've had a few situations now where what was obviously and well geared/skilled Operative just flat out annihilated me. The situation went something like this: (Game was Huttball).

 

Knocked down on my face, got up with around 50 - 60% health (I have 18k hitpoints), used cryo to get some ground, he breaks it, hits me with any number of "stuff", I use area stun to get some space (now either someone hits him and it breaks, or they have something else to break again), he breaks it and CC's me and by now its all but done.

 

Respawn, come running out and am in the middle of 3 - 4 people pounding on me, im throwing everything I have at the weakest one and manage to barely get a kill before I die. This event goes on for "quite awhile" before I go down.

 

Enter Operative on my way back to the fight. Catches me again, reread description of first encounter.

Respawned, head back to middle, engage a few players fighting in the area, things are going well...Enter Operative. Game over in just a matter of seconds. (This one i was taking on damage from other players, which only made it easier right? lol).

 

Ok so, have other Vanguards of either spec had similar situations with Operatives? I'm not always the best or smartest player, just ask my guildmates, but based on my experience I think I have a pretty decent feel for my offense/defense at this point, and in the case of some Operatives, I'm feeling like I have no defense. And don't tell me to run away, that isn't an option nor do I want to run away lol...

 

I've learned a lot about our class by reading this forum so I just wantedto bring my experience here and get some other viewpoints and explanations about "what is going wrong for me".

 

[Chocodaddy]

if he has all his cool downs its a pretty hard fight. try dropping stealth scan before he re cloaks, will force him to keep fighting or move out of the area buying you some time and space. i usually try to break the first knockdown,cryonade him get dots and and assault plastique on him. with that and a good HIB hits should kinda turn the tables. if he re stealths its pretty much game over so stealth scan and dots are key.

[me_unknown]

..., used cryo to get some ground, he breaks it, hits me with any number of "stuff", I use area stun to get some space...

don't feel offended, but this description of your actions - especially the order but not only - indicated you still have a lot to learn.

(now either someone hits him and it breaks, or they have something else to break again), he breaks it and CC's me and by now its all but done.

this seems to confirm my furst guess. nothing can break any of our two stunns except the stunn breaker. though the aoe one holds only for 2s (2.5s with technician 2 set bonus). EDIT: well it can be dispelled by someone else though. but i doubt this happened.

 

 

no, it is difficult to judge and give proper advise but some of your description indicate various tactic mistakes on your side. without really seeing the fight though it is difficuult. also we don't know the operatives equip (yes his can be significant better than your full bm one due to augments and expertise).

 

but i admit, playing without ion cell greatly reduces your survivability. as an assoult build you must make use of your dmg to put him under pressure.

 

for me, on my vanguard i don't lose to any operative, except healer ones affter an hour of fight maybe if no one helps either him or me.

Edited April 23, 2012 by me_unknown

[Raggok]

Equal skill, equal gear, and with all CDs available an assault vanguard does not beat an operative. Particularly if they are a healer hybrid.

 

Why? Several reasons.

 

1) Insta-cast HoTs

2) They can remove fire DoTs with an instacast ability

3) They can remove all harmful effects before vanishing. DoTing will not prevent a successful vanish. You won't be able to stealth scan them because a good operative will vanish close enough to you to either open immediately or tranq you. The removal and vanish are not on the GCD. The only way to stop this is to apply a sticky grenade before they vanish, but that is not reliable and is quite frankly luck if you do so.

 

4) But most importantly, in a 1v1 with all CDs up an Operative will have three CCs. One stun, one flash grenade. They can heal themselves while you are CCd. If you use the trinket to break either of those CCs to prevent them from healing they can vanish and tranq you and out of combat heal to full. You have no way of countering this. If they want to heal, they can and will.

 

I've played both classes. I would never beat my healing-hybrid scoundrel with my vanguard in a straight up 1v1.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Raggok

[Nezyrworks]

Well said Oozo.

 

Olympic - you win some, you lose some.

 

From my experinece it's a minimal chance (luck with sticky as Oozo mentioned, or just a lag) to win a fight with fully CD'd Operative/Scoundrel (especialy hybrid heal). He have to many ways to counter your advantage. BUT if he is out of his cooldowns, he should be yours.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Nezyrworks

[Desist]

Against a really well geared highly skilled concealment operative, you're only going to kill him when all of your cooldowns are up. Since Vanguards have some long cooldowns, you're just gonna get wrecked by him repeatedly if he has it out for you. You've got to realize this and bring friends. No solo guarding a point on Alderaan, unless you have all of your cooldowns and are confident you can kill them.

 

When an operative knocks me down, the first thing I use is my reactive shield. It will activate while you're getting up off the ground. The next thing the operative will do is stick a knife in you, stunning you. Trinket that. You are resolve capped and have lost a decent bit of health. AOE stun. Use adrenaline rush. Run through your max dps rotation. He should be about dead. If he stealths out, use stealth scan immediately. He will die shortly after. If he doesn't stealth out, it's a dps race to the death and most likely you will win. Although it'll still be close. If you screw up somehow and the operative gets the second opener on you, you lose.

 

For the healer operatives, just dps them. They will cc you a lot and gradually wear down your health. If you get lucky with crits and get their health low, stun them immediately. If they stun you, trinket and stun them again. Just keep them stunned. Burst them down and don't let them go. Hopefully you get some more lucky crits. If they are cleansing your dots/slow, then they aren't healing themselves as effectively. Ion pulse to reapply dots and slow.

 

If you see a concealment operative opening up on someone, stun them, taunt them, and start wailing on them. They die really fast with even just two people on them.

 

If you see a healer operative, get on them, try to separate them from their team if you can. They are the best healers in the game right now. They should die first.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Desist

[mikphobos]

not to be mean, but clearly you have a lot to learn... people should learn how to play they class instead of complain about other classes being OP, post like this just ruin the experience for other classes, since Devs looks to like to take them as a excuse for nerf other classes. when the truth is this guy do not know his class well.

[Hethroin]

not to be mean, but clearly you have a lot to learn... people should learn how to play they class instead of complain about other classes being OP, post like this just ruin the experience for other classes, since Devs looks to like to take them as a excuse for nerf other classes. when the truth is this guy do not know his class well.

 

I did not get the "nerf ops nao" sense that you seemed to have gotten out of the original post. It seemed more of a "what am I doing wrong here."

 

Save your break free for the long stun. Pop shield ASAP. Once you break free from the long stun use your DPS cool downs. Use your own stuns to create range, and start with the AE stun. With all CDs up an assault VG can come out on top.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Hethroin

[Codename_Quincy]

if a good op/scoundrel gets me in a 1v1 i just save my cd's and die

[kuey]

Since I don't have a high lvl VG I'll ask this, is your second stun a mezz? If it is then it's most likely being broken by your DoTs as an assault spec.

 

As a Scoundrel I'll say this much, we only have 1 CC breaker.

 

It seems the OP's problems are with full Concealment spec'd OPs (no hybrid can burst you down half hp, if you don't know why, you evidently know nothing about the class).

 

The best way to counter OPs as an Assault is keeping up your DoTs on them. They can't keep themselves DoT free 100% of the time (if they are they're wasting over half their GCDs on removing your DoTs, and if you can't kill them when they're doing that you need some serious help). Save CC breaker for their kick. Throw up shield right after they open up on you, it'll most likely force them to kick stun you or re-stealth and run away (their defensive CDs are nothing compared to yours in terms of damage mitigated). Don't forget to pop your relics and adrenals (if he's downing you as fast as you said he was he did definitely popped his). Also, never use HiB when he has his defensive skill up that gives him 100% dodge.

 

I'll try some PvP with a VG guildie and see if I can come up with some more solid stuff for ya.

[rolotomasi]

hmmm i dun fight dps ops head on and they not stupid to waste time kill a tank.

 

while we at this, can some1 share how you control ops healer. i seems can't dent them. when i do, i could get them to 1/3 hp but not enough to finish off. worst part is i never see them cast anything just run around kite me whole map.

 

there's quite a few ops healer hard to kill on my server. they just demoralize pugs when they realize they guys is around.

 

i use to take away the best of them out of the pack and keep him occupied. once he figures he can kill me 1vs1, that does not work anymore.

 

which dps partner is the best to gank ops healer? i've better success rate with a scoundrel but they rely on cd too much. sentinels prone to switch target. i'm yet to find good guardian dps. most of them are tank. gunslinger need to position. i guess i'll try with dps vanguard.

[me_unknown]

am i missing something? can operatives remove dots etc. every gcd? don't they have a 12s cd on it like the others?

so don't tell me your burn effects etc. are worthless. one procs automatically if not every gcd depending on your skill. and one can directly be applied. so don't tell me operatives manage to clean them self of them all the time.

if they try they would do zero damage as they spent all there gcd on it.

 

though, i can't really say how well an assault does against an operative. but with my own if similar build it never happened that i lost in a fair situation.

[Sporticus]

If you are running an assault build, then as many have said, it is imperative that you get some damage ticking on him asap after he opens. Pop your crit/relic/adrenal, drop Assault Plastique and your dot. Depending on how hard he hits you when he opens, you have to decide whether or not to save your breaker. It is a very tough fight if they're a well geared dps OP and get the drop on you. I don't use reactive shield because I'm rocking the Eliminator offhand generator, so that option is out of the question for me.

 

That said, if I can get any distance on them then my first rotation tends to hit them very hard (HIB and AP hitting in the same tick). Experienced Ops will likely still beat a full assault vanguard if they get the open, but less experienced ones will generally panic when they see 5-7k of their health disappear in one time stamp. As soon as I get the feeling they're on their heels a bit, I drop stealth scan at my feet and keep my fingers crossed.

 

In your huttball, once you realized that the Operative was gunning for you, then you have to decide to either eat the deaths and continue to push into the fight, or alter your approach in anticipation of the next stealth attack.

[kuey]

am i missing something? can operatives remove dots etc. every gcd? don't they have a 12s cd on it like the others?

so don't tell me your burn effects etc. are worthless. one procs automatically if not every gcd depending on your skill. and one can directly be applied. so don't tell me operatives manage to clean them self of them all the time.

if they try they would do zero damage as they spent all there gcd on it.

 

though, i can't really say how well an assault does against an operative. but with my own if similar build it never happened that i lost in a fair situation.

 

Actually Scoundrel/Op cleanse ability is on a 4.5 sec CD. So they can whip it out every 3 GCDs, if they're idiots anyway.

[Philosomanic]

...I don't use reactive shield because I'm rocking the Eliminator offhand generator, so that option is out of the question for me.

 

I'm sorry, what? If you have that cooldown available, there's exactly one reason not to use it: if you think you can easily win the fight without it. But since Ops are a really hard fight, that doesn't apply.

[Olympic]

Appreciate all the helpful insight, some new methods I will adjust to and see how it goes

[me_unknown]

Actually Scoundrel/Op cleanse ability is on a 4.5 sec CD. So they can whip it out every 3 GCDs, if they're idiots anyway.

 

ah good to know. would be funny to see an operative cleansing my dots every 3 gcd. i saw a lot of bad players but i think such one could make it into the top 10?

 

anyhow, i admitted already that as an assault spec it could get heard if they get the jump on you. but who says all builds must be viable against all opponents? my build fails against healers but works against all others.

[Sporticus]

I'm sorry, what? If you have that cooldown available, there's exactly one reason not to use it: if you think you can easily win the fight without it. But since Ops are a really hard fight, that doesn't apply.

 

I have been under the impression for quite some time that if you aren't using a shield offhand, then your reactive shield is basically worthless. If that isn't true then I'll save you all the time and call myself a noob!

[Wallsie]

I have been under the impression for quite some time that if you aren't using a shield offhand, then your reactive shield is basically worthless. If that isn't true then I'll save you all the time and call myself a noob!

 

Reactive Shield is a straight 25% decrease to incoming damage. It works that way for all troopers regardless of gear.

[Sporticus]

Reactive Shield is a straight 25% decrease to incoming damage. It works that way for all troopers regardless of gear.

 

Before you consider how big a noob I am, you should know that I'm about to hit valour rank 80. That should put things properly in perspective...

[Philosomanic]

Before you consider how big a noob I am, you should know that I'm about to hit valour rank 80. That should put things properly in perspective...

 

Wow... well, if you managed to get this far without using such an incredibly powerful cooldown, just imagine how much a** you're going to kick now that you know to use it

 

How in the world did you get that impression from reading the tooltip? It seems incredibly straight-forward to me.

[Sporticus]

I actually read it in a guide somewhere in relation to the shield mechanics. Pretty sure I just misunderstood whatever it was I was reading and never looked back. That said, I hesitate to tell you how many fights I've lost where my oponent was below 10% health...

[Philosomanic]

I actually read it in a guide somewhere in relation to the shield mechanics. Pretty sure I just misunderstood whatever it was I was reading and never looked back. That said, I hesitate to tell you how many fights I've lost where my oponent was below 10% health...

 

Maybe you should go through every skill you have (including the ones you don't use, ever) and look at all of the tooltips in detail. Who knows what goodies you'll turn up?

[Sporticus]

Maybe you should go through every skill you have (including the ones you don't use, ever) and look at all of the tooltips in detail. Who knows what goodies you'll turn up?

 

Hah, well the only other one that is pretty much permanently off my bars is Blitz...and it's not coming back.

[ShiroRX]

I haven't found they can handle me well solo. They tend not to win a burst race, and I instantly un-stealth 90% of creepers so they usually cannot restealth; especially if they're not disengaging and staying around me.